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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    That just sounds like a greedy bitey boy whining about not getting enough to drink.
    This was in a history book in a time when not having enough to drink wasn't a concern. Her comments were in response to the "scorched earth tactics" which the Maldraxxi used against the forces of the Light when they attacked Revendreth. Certainly some bias in there, she states her opinion that raising the dead as skeletons should be considered a war crime, but it's interesting all the same.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    This was in a history book in a time when not having enough to drink wasn't a concern. Her comments were in response to the "scorched earth tactics" which the Maldraxxi used against the forces of the Light when they attacked Revendreth. Certainly some bias in there, she states her opinion that raising the dead as skeletons should be considered a war crime, but it's interesting all the same.
    Oh I picked up on that, but the deal is that it goes right to the heart of the inscrutability of the Arbiter.

    It's like when you end up taking Mograine through Bastion and he later talks to the Voice of the Arbiter asking why he was sent to Maldraxxus where every denizen looked like his former foes of the Scourge and how he'd spent a life devoted to The Light and honor, so why wasn't he rewarded for that devotion and sacrifice? Then the Voice asks him if he would/could have been able to forget his family, his wife, his sons and Mograine says that they were his strength and he could not have.

    So it's much the same with Revendreth. There's a line that the Arbiter has somewhere that when you exceed it with your pride, gluttony, abusiveness, cowardice or combination thereof then it's clear to the entity that your soul requires correction and you're sent on. So someone could be ruthless and cruel, but take no pleasure in it and have no pride in their accomplishments in war. And so they'd be sent on to Maldraxxus instead.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Don't try to think about it, especially if you are part of the Kyrian covenant, who still ferry the souls to Oribos, despite knowing the arbiter is broken, thus sending them straight to the maw and then send you to the maw to get the souls, instead of just taking them in the first place.
    Pretty much this, it's like different people are working on different quests and the internal communication between them is non-existent. I can't think of any other explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    Except that it's already been stated that the anima extracted in Revendreth is supposed to be sent to the other realms. That's their entire purpose. That's why the drought happened, when Sire D. said screw it, imma help the Jailer, and stockpiled the anima to feed into the maw instead of sending it to the other realms.
    Where was it stated? As far as I know, Revendreth is just more efficient than others when it comes to anima extraction, but they're by no means obligated to share their anima with other realms. The Winter Queen asking for their anima was an act of desperation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    So it's much the same with Revendreth. There's a line that the Arbiter has somewhere that when you exceed it with your pride, gluttony, abusiveness, cowardice or combination thereof then it's clear to the entity that your soul requires correction and you're sent on. So someone could be ruthless and cruel, but take no pleasure in it and have no pride in their accomplishments in war. And so they'd be sent on to Maldraxxus instead.
    That would make sense if we didn't have beings such as Emeni in Maldraxxus.
    Last edited by Trollokdamus; 2021-02-21 at 04:38 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    Pretty much this, it's like different people are working on different quests and the internal communication between them is non-existent. I can't think of any other explanation.
    This is literally addressed in the first sentence where I stated that this is a mechanics vs lore discussion. So no, no one should be taking this seriously.

    That would make sense if we didn't have beings such as Emeni in Maldraxxus.
    How so? Yes, she is prideful in wanting to be known specifically as a princess, but is that pride also filled with hubris? Has it lead to the death of thousands of her people and who knows how many others as the pride of Kael'Thas and Garrosh has?

    Which was greater? Her pride or her capacity for battle?

    Has she shown herself capable of compromise or only able to be weaseled into subjugation by others while planning their downfall behind their backs and looking down on them? Was her pride in excess of her honor as well?

    Because she's shown that she is willing to be disembodied rather than betray her honor, has respect for the hero of Maldraxxus and only expects the same respect in turn, revels in battle, seems not to have caused the death of multiple innocents through her pride, respects the chain of command when it is held in honor and doesn't abuse her subordinates or her superiors.

    Her pride is not a lethal pride, not is her cruelty or desire for revenge a lethal trait as she doesn't flex those particular muscles "just because."

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    How so? Yes, she is prideful in wanting to be known specifically as a princess, but is that pride also filled with hubris? Has it lead to the death of thousands of her people and who knows how many others as the pride of Kael'Thas and Garrosh has?

    Which was greater? Her pride or her capacity for battle?

    Has she shown herself capable of compromise or only able to be weaseled into subjugation by others while planning their downfall behind their backs and looking down on them? Was her pride in excess of her honor as well?

    Because she's shown that she is willing to be disembodied rather than betray her honor, has respect for the hero of Maldraxxus and only expects the same respect in turn, revels in battle, seems not to have caused the death of multiple innocents through her pride, respects the chain of command when it is held in honor and doesn't abuse her subordinates or her superiors.

    Her pride is not a lethal pride, not is her cruelty or desire for revenge a lethal trait as she doesn't flex those particular muscles "just because."
    "Here lies the remains of Emeni, the Kinslayer.
    Born into an era of peace she did not belong to.
    No kin was safe while she thirsted for power.
    No rival was safe while she thirsted for victory.
    No bystander was safe while she thirsted for violence.
    But rest easy now, young ones, for the fabled kinslayer of Slithering Gulch is long dead.
    Let all who gaze on her remains take solace in their silence."


    She's known to have slaughtered hundreds of her siblings in order to claim the throne (in a time of peace so it's not like she had no other choice).

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    "Here lies the remains of Emeni, the Kinslayer.
    Born into an era of peace she did not belong to.
    No kin was safe while she thirsted for power.
    No rival was safe while she thirsted for victory.
    No bystander was safe while she thirsted for violence.
    But rest easy now, young ones, for the fabled kinslayer of Slithering Gulch is long dead.
    Let all who gaze on her remains take solace in their silence."


    She's known to have slaughtered hundreds of her siblings in order to claim the throne (in a time of peace so it's not like she had no other choice).
    Ha! Alright, I'd say that's fair, but clearly she's better now.

    So I guess the Arbiter chose correctly. ::shrug::

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Ha! Alright, I'd say that's fair, but clearly she's better now.

    So I guess the Arbiter chose correctly. ::shrug::
    The Arbiter didn't, that's the point. There are souls who go to Revendreth for less than that. I wouldn't be surprised if it was ultimately revealed that the Arbiter had been flawed the entire time.

    Edit: I actually don't know how to explain why Emeni had a change of heart in Maldraxxus other than the writers wanted to see her like this. But this change of heart doesn't diminish her sins in life.
    Last edited by Trollokdamus; 2021-02-21 at 07:38 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    The Arbiter didn't, that's the point. There are souls who go to Revendreth for less than that. I wouldn't be surprised if it was ultimately revealed that the Arbiter had been flawed the entire time.

    Edit: I actually don't know how to explain why Emeni had a change of heart in Maldraxxus other than the writers wanted to see her like this. But this change of heart doesn't diminish her sins in life.
    At what point did I say that it diminished her sins?

    Rather it's just where the Arbiter felt she was meant to be placed.

    I suppose there is a chance she was sent on to Revendreth and was then purified and respun to Maldraxus, but I don't think I've seen anything like this.

    Really it's a great plot device since the Arbiter is infallible anyone that somehow ends up in a place that the community thinks they shouldn't have been placed just means the community is wrong.

    What's weird though is probably Kel'Thuzad.

    I'm not sure we have anything on this, but did he die, get spun into Maldraxus since he was a powerful sorcerer and turned into a Lich there, then when Arthas brought him back just sucked him away from Maldraxus? So when he died again on Azeroth inside Nax he just got sent back?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    At what point did I say that it diminished her sins?

    Rather it's just where the Arbiter felt she was meant to be placed.

    I suppose there is a chance she was sent on to Revendreth and was then purified and respun to Maldraxus, but I don't think I've seen anything like this.

    Really it's a great plot device since the Arbiter is infallible anyone that somehow ends up in a place that the community thinks they shouldn't have been placed just means the community is wrong.

    What's weird though is probably Kel'Thuzad.

    I'm not sure we have anything on this, but did he die, get spun into Maldraxus since he was a powerful sorcerer and turned into a Lich there, then when Arthas brought him back just sucked him away from Maldraxus? So when he died again on Azeroth inside Nax he just got sent back?
    You didn't, I was just trying to say that Emeni's sins were considerable and that the core personality traits behind them should've been the deciding factor when it had come to deciding her fate. Whatever good she had within her could only be cultivated if those traits were to change. This is exactly what Revendreth is supposed to do so I would be perfectly fine with her being in Maldraxxus if she'd been sent to Revendreth first.

    As for the Arbiter, was it really ever said that she/it was infallible? I can't think of a single reference to that, actually. Her judgement doesn't seem infallible to me considering all the kyrian who turned Forsworn, all the Maldraxxi who betrayed their duty, and all the venthyr who succumbed to the very sins they'd been purged of. Oh, and of course all the alternative versions of souls who had to coalesce with their main timeline counterpart and share its fate. Like, there were so many Garroshs who were heroes in their respective timelines, yet all of them had to form a single being and go to Revendreth because of one bad apple.

    Kel'thuzad is an interesting case. I'm pretty sure he'd earned himself (or should have earned) some quality time in Revendreth for his shenanigans involving the plague, but wasn't sent there given that his spirit appeared before Arthas several times. In Maldraxxus, I think it was simply his form of choice. We know that Draka and Vashj chose theirs, so it's definitely possible for some souls to choose how they want to manifest there.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    You didn't, I was just trying to say that Emeni's sins were considerable and that the core personality traits behind them should've been the deciding factor when it had come to deciding her fate. Whatever good she had within her could only be cultivated if those traits were to change. This is exactly what Revendreth is supposed to do so I would be perfectly fine with her being in Maldraxxus if she'd been sent to Revendreth first.

    As for the Arbiter, was it really ever said that she/it was infallible? I can't think of a single reference to that, actually. Her judgement doesn't seem infallible to me considering all the kyrian who turned Forsworn, all the Maldraxxi who betrayed their duty, and all the venthyr who succumbed to the very sins they'd been purged of. Oh, and of course all the alternative versions of souls who had to coalesce with their main timeline counterpart and share its fate. Like, there were so many Garroshs who were heroes in their respective timelines, yet all of them had to form a single being and go to Revendreth because of one bad apple.

    Kel'thuzad is an interesting case. I'm pretty sure he'd earned himself (or should have earned) some quality time in Revendreth for his shenanigans involving the plague, but wasn't sent there given that his spirit appeared before Arthas several times. In Maldraxxus, I think it was simply his form of choice. We know that Draka and Vashj chose theirs, so it's definitely possible for some souls to choose how they want to manifest there.
    She doesn't have control over what the souls do once they are placed, only over their placement, and yeah, she is infallible.

    All the voices, hands and eyes of the arbiter in Oribos are very specific about that. She is the purpose and the purpose is all that matters and is that which defines them.

    The Kyrian in general aren't supposed to defect from the Archon, they are expected to have doubts, old memories and infallibilities, that's literally how the Kyrian get their anima through the purging a soul of their former mortal trappings through gentle meditation and even combat with the self. Their entire schtick is self improvement so them having folks that go Forsworn isn't a bug, it's a feature. Rather it's presumed that the chances of a kyrian falling drops dramatically as they ascend further and they'd never had a situation before where someone would show up with a literally wounded soul. (It's still up for debate whether or not too Uther's soul has actually been cut in two with the wound representing the part that was taken and entrapped in Frostmourne.)

    In revendreth they do purge the pride, greed, cowardice and such from souls but it's less that they remove a thing and more that they truly show someone their sins and then teach that person how to come to terms with them. That's the point of a sinstone, it's the burden you carry that reminds you of all the shit you've ever done no matter how high or how low. They aren't trying to get you to ascend and honestly they don't even expect much in the way of personal atonement - the atonement/punishment occurs as your sins are made manifest to you - rather they expect you to look honestly upon yourself and truly know what you've done and how it's hurt others. I know that doesn't sound like much but it's remarkably hard to see yourself for who you are both good and bad cutting away all the bullshit we spin.

    Either way Kyrian are like self-help, Venthyr are like court ordered rehab. Maldraxxus is joining a sports team. Night Fae is joining a nature conservatory that holds highway cleaning and tree planting events every weekend.

    As for whether or not KelT deserved some time in Revendreth, that's kinda up for debate. I'm not sure he actually does, I mean sure he committed atrocities and gave in to cowardice, but more than anything he was motivated by power and a hunger for knowledge. Power and knowledge, especially dark knowledge, seems pretty Maldraxxian. Everyone is just too caught up in the stories of Drakka and Morgraine where they are all "honor!" "Loyalty!" to see that there's a lot of jockeying for power in Maldraxxus and it has that rather infantile "you keep what you kill" mentality where the baddest dude on the block gets to be in charge.

    Just look at the story of the House of Plagues vs the House of Rites. The Plagues know they can't trust the Liches - hell it's a running theme in the zone that everyone knows they can't trust the Liches and not even the Liches trust each other - but because of the drought the Plagues are forced into an almost subordinate relationship with the Liches and their house is then later destroyed by the Liches tampering with the various plague experiments. Thus consolidating power for the House of Rites.

    The Liches don't really care about the long term stability of the zone, they just want to be in charge of it and truly think that as the most powerful there that they deserve to run the whole show of all the Shadowlands.

  11. #31
    Relatedly, what if we're rescuing souls from the Maw/Torghast that deserve to be left there?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    She doesn't have control over what the souls do once they are placed, only over their placement, and yeah, she is infallible.

    All the voices, hands and eyes of the arbiter in Oribos are very specific about that. She is the purpose and the purpose is all that matters and is that which defines them.

    The Kyrian in general aren't supposed to defect from the Archon, they are expected to have doubts, old memories and infallibilities, that's literally how the Kyrian get their anima through the purging a soul of their former mortal trappings through gentle meditation and even combat with the self. Their entire schtick is self improvement so them having folks that go Forsworn isn't a bug, it's a feature. Rather it's presumed that the chances of a kyrian falling drops dramatically as they ascend further and they'd never had a situation before where someone would show up with a literally wounded soul. (It's still up for debate whether or not too Uther's soul has actually been cut in two with the wound representing the part that was taken and entrapped in Frostmourne.)

    In revendreth they do purge the pride, greed, cowardice and such from souls but it's less that they remove a thing and more that they truly show someone their sins and then teach that person how to come to terms with them. That's the point of a sinstone, it's the burden you carry that reminds you of all the shit you've ever done no matter how high or how low. They aren't trying to get you to ascend and honestly they don't even expect much in the way of personal atonement - the atonement/punishment occurs as your sins are made manifest to you - rather they expect you to look honestly upon yourself and truly know what you've done and how it's hurt others. I know that doesn't sound like much but it's remarkably hard to see yourself for who you are both good and bad cutting away all the bullshit we spin.

    Either way Kyrian are like self-help, Venthyr are like court ordered rehab. Maldraxxus is joining a sports team. Night Fae is joining a nature conservatory that holds highway cleaning and tree planting events every weekend.

    As for whether or not KelT deserved some time in Revendreth, that's kinda up for debate. I'm not sure he actually does, I mean sure he committed atrocities and gave in to cowardice, but more than anything he was motivated by power and a hunger for knowledge. Power and knowledge, especially dark knowledge, seems pretty Maldraxxian. Everyone is just too caught up in the stories of Drakka and Morgraine where they are all "honor!" "Loyalty!" to see that there's a lot of jockeying for power in Maldraxxus and it has that rather infantile "you keep what you kill" mentality where the baddest dude on the block gets to be in charge.

    Just look at the story of the House of Plagues vs the House of Rites. The Plagues know they can't trust the Liches - hell it's a running theme in the zone that everyone knows they can't trust the Liches and not even the Liches trust each other - but because of the drought the Plagues are forced into an almost subordinate relationship with the Liches and their house is then later destroyed by the Liches tampering with the various plague experiments. Thus consolidating power for the House of Rites.

    The Liches don't really care about the long term stability of the zone, they just want to be in charge of it and truly think that as the most powerful there that they deserve to run the whole show of all the Shadowlands.
    The Arbiter may not have control over what souls do, but she knows perfectly well what they are capable of. And again, how can we know for certain that the Arbiter is infallible if Blizzard never referred to her as such? Even Attendants do not call her infallible, only wise. And if they did, they wouldn't be a credible source anyway: Attendants exist to serve her so they're clearly biased. Kyrestia, for instance, is also perfect in the eyes of her Ascended when it is now obvious that she isn't.

    Kyrian are indeed expected to show the flaws you've mentioned, but only when they are still aspirants. It takes eons of training for them to get rid of these flaws and build up resistance to them before they can ascend. Yet we see Ascended becoming Forsworn left and right, led by none other than the Paragon of Loyalty herself.

    In any case, those who undergo the Revendreth treatment are no longer (supposed to be) the same people. And that's understandable because how can you truly confront your sins and see them in a different light if you have the same personality as when you committed them? The problem is, if you can easily succumb to your sins again then the process has clearly failed. Why? Either because the venthyr responsible for you were incompetent, or you didn't belong in Revendreth in the first place and should've gone straight to the Maw instead - because otherwise, you'd be a walking time bomb as either a new venthyr or a resident of a different Shadowlands realm.

    I wouldn't compare Maldraxxus to joining a sports team, it's more like joining the military. You don't need to be loyal to your team, can quit anytime, and even join your rivals - all totally fine. But serving in the military requires a completely different attitude. That's why Maldraxxus is such a mess right now - it's not so much a fully functional professional military as it is several sports teams sharing a single playground. The problem, once again, lies in the Arbiter who sends there everyone who can fight or is simply ambitious - including those who completely lack honor, loyalty, and respect for their superiors.

    I see your point concerning Kel'thuzad, but it was his pride that made him believe that his desire for power was more important than the lives of countless innocents. That's why I think it should've been Revendreth first, Maldraxxus later.
    Last edited by Trollokdamus; 2021-02-26 at 04:27 AM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Not strictly related, but Necrolord players can be sent on a quest from their Abomination Factory and find a history book in Revendreth where the author states her belief that the Arbiter was intentionally sending war criminals to Maldraxxus in order to use them to defend the Shadowlands, rather than to Revendreth where they justly belonged.
    Maybe that explains why there are so many dickheads in Maldraxxus, when compared to the other three covenants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

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