1. #1

    Why does frost simulate so high when it's so far below in reality?

    I'm struggling to figure out the cause of this.
    As it stands, frost mage is currently one of the highest simulated specs out there for single target.
    Yet I'm unable to produce the results in-game and the logs of other mages seems to showcase the same.

    What gives? I'm aware that fire has vastly superior AoE and thus are able to perform higher on fights where a cleave is possible which is pretty much most fights in CN; but what about Shriekwing or Hungering?
    Hell, even in M+s I'm falling behind most players on single-target - especially when the pride buff is up.

    Furthermore, I'm getting some odd results when simulating Incanter's Flow compared to Rune of Power.
    The difference is marginal; yet I see most of the frost mages using RoP in raids. Why? Unless you do it to absolute perfection everytime - which seems silly in theory - wouldn't IF provide more on average?

    E: On an entirely different note; the new legendary changes as well as the buff to necrolords - does it change anything for frost?
    Last edited by Raage; 2021-02-19 at 07:00 PM.

  2. #2
    Well, the numbers for frost are based on a patchwerk encounter where you will benefit the most from icy propulsion, slick ice and in most cases of the nadja Venthir souldbind. This would maximize the cd reduction on icy veins the most efficient way vs a real encounter scenario where you need to move
    Also please don't forget ROP does also leave one cast under you as soon you pop IV and you can also control when you want to use the next one perfectly as well which is less rng than Incanter's flow.

  3. #3
    I'm sure you already considered this but the current bloodmallet profiles are BiS socketed character profiles, and I'm going to guess you don't have access to that level of gear, IE 226-233 in every slot.
    It could easily be a scaling issue, a lot of classes scale much faster than intended.
    Source: https://bloodmallet.com/chart/mage/f...stingpatchwerk
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  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Have to consider this: if a one spec performs highly, all the good players will play it. Therefore, even if other specs are still decent, they will be under-represented in logs. Less skilled player will play them and it will bring the rank of the spec down certain amount. That being said, frost right now has a superior funnel dmg.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2021-02-23 at 09:38 PM.
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  5. #5
    Mechagnome Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Simulation patchwerk is basically when you just tunnel the boss and don’t move at all. In reality it’s never like that so you gotta plan everything beforehand and pre move. Also when getting new gear there are always insufficient stats in one way or another. It requires a lot of patience and effort. Also the choice of talents and legendaries is important for each boss fight.

  6. #6
    Tbh, I play frost as a main.

    Fire to me requires perfect or near perfect gameplay. If you mess up your synch, your combust and other CDs might not line up as you need them. There are many situations where it's easy to mess up, and then your DMG goes down the drain.

    Frost on the other hand is far more forgiving. And for me it also plays out more naturally. The legendaries are easier to play, too.

    The drawback is that you will be below a perfectly played fire mage. But you will be certainly above any subpar fire mage and it will stress you less.

    For M+ and Raiding you only need one legendary each, but the rest of your gear can stay the same.

    So... Honestly do what you like, it only matters if you're a 0.1% pusher for progress and logs. Otherwise, if frost is more fun for you, you will still be able to compete with little issues.

    And on sustained patchwork fights, you might as well outperform fire according to bloodmallet if you play venthyr.

  7. #7
    Fire has incredible burst and does minimal dmg outside of the burst window.
    It bursts for 20k dps and afterwards does about 4k dps. The average for the whole fight is about 6-8kdps.

    Frost on the other hand "bursts" for about 10-11k dps and does about 6-7k afterwards. This averages out on 7-8kdps

    (Source https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T26_Raid.html)

    So imagine the fight begins:
    Fire unloads most of the dmg in 10 seconds.
    Frost has to keep up for the whole icy veins duration. (1min and longer depending on gear and crits)

    Now Mechanics kick in 20 secs into the fight. There will be movement and or even downtime.
    Fire will loose out on 4k dps (post burst dps)
    Frost looses out on 6-7k dps and cant prolong IcyVeins (Thermal Void) and cant reduce the cooldown of Icy Veins properly anymore (Icy Propulsion)
    .
    -> Frost looses way more dmg on non-Patchwork fights compared to Fire.

    Your examples were Shriekwing and Hungering Destroyer.
    Shriekwing has a lot of downtime.
    Hungering Destroyer has a lot of Movement

    As a rule of thumb.
    Assuming both specs do about the same dmg (Simulated 6min Patchwork fight). The Burst Spec >> The non Burst Spec.

  8. #8
    If I had to guess then I would say the very nature of fire allows you to make better use of short burst windows, allows you do do dmg on the move and has an execute that improves that even further. Frost on the other hand is kinda terrible, more so in the fights mentioned, especially if your group's tactics aren't tailored to you.

    In my raid for example the ranged are constantly forced to move and since our healers are dog shit we also maximize healer comfort. So essentially everything that happens and can somehow be managed by ranged dps is done by them, wheres us melee just tunnel all the time and complain that we have to move 3 yards to the side.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Raage View Post
    I'm struggling to figure out the cause of this.
    As it stands, frost mage is currently one of the highest simulated specs out there for single target.
    Yet I'm unable to produce the results in-game and the logs of other mages seems to showcase the same.

    What gives? I'm aware that fire has vastly superior AoE and thus are able to perform higher on fights where a cleave is possible which is pretty much most fights in CN; but what about Shriekwing or Hungering?
    Hell, even in M+s I'm falling behind most players on single-target - especially when the pride buff is up.

    Furthermore, I'm getting some odd results when simulating Incanter's Flow compared to Rune of Power.
    The difference is marginal; yet I see most of the frost mages using RoP in raids. Why? Unless you do it to absolute perfection everytime - which seems silly in theory - wouldn't IF provide more on average?

    E: On an entirely different note; the new legendary changes as well as the buff to necrolords - does it change anything for frost?
    All three mage specs are in pretty good spot, obviously fire is the best but its only by a small margin, the fire mage if performing at 100% will be somewhere between 500-1500 dps ahead of the other mage specs at most, and thats still while the arcane mage and frost are pulling 7k dps.

    Play what you enjoy and you will do better dps anyway.
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