'I can't keep doing this': gig workers say pay has fallen after California's Prop 22

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Natalism is generally good because;

A) If your society literally cannot produce enough people to sustain itself? Why is that not itself a problem?

B) Subsisting on other people like some kind of vampire doesn't sit well with me.

C) It's not a sustainable situation. Many areas won't be producing a lot of people shortly so what do you do when nowhere is producing a lot of kids?

D) Desired birthrate remains high so its no of function of lack of will or desire?

Basically if the Liberal Capitalist utopia we claim to live in cannot actually convince people its worth actually creating new life in and instead to sustain that system we must harvest other warm bodies to shovel into a vast gaping maw, that is both immoral and a system that deserve to die not be maintained.

While we're at it, might as well add that more natalism means less capital concentration :
-having and educating children is a massive financial drain
-forgoing or limiting those expenditure often result in the accumulation of capital, if only to prepare for retirement, which will be poured in the stock-market, real estate, etc...
-lots of children/heirs = quicker dispersion of capital

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When has unskilled labor been uncommon?

Numerous times in history.

It's been documented that catastrophic major demographic reductions like the Black Death, by drastically lowering the supply of labour, resulted in higher wages and lower rents.

More recently, the first centuries of colonization of the Americas were marked by an extreme lack of labor respective to the abundance of land.

[Felya]

Programming isn't a mid level tech job, it is an upper level one.

Why are you talking about development? IT jobs are not only development... my links are not talking about just development. I am not a developer...

Technicians are mid level. Its also one the often requires a degree, or significant knowledge, to get into. Plus, $2.4 billion divided by $88,000 is only 28k new jobs. I would MUCH rather see 28k new heavy industry jobs.

That’s not how you derive jobs from a medium.

What do you mean by heavy industry? You are complaining about 28k NEW jobs, when we spent millions prepping up 42k jobs, that are decreasing. Outside keeping old money rich... what is the point of forcing a dying industry, when there is a booming one? Oil Barron’s need their billions from tax payers?

I'm sure it has nothing to do with big tech being generally left leaning...

You are shitting on in demand jobs, that pay more than the jobs being lost, because of left leaning? I am pointing out the demand... the pay... and the variety of jobs coming from Information Technology... for you to respond with some bullshit about left leaning? Is this about jobs or pushing ideology? Is this about jobs or calling billionaires conservatives, so you can protect their failing industry in the name of fighting leftist?

If the net result is a larger lower class, then yes an enlarged upper class is bad.

Since it’s not... what’s going on here? Let me guess, the last 20 years of growth doesn’t count, because it’s new billionaires? It’s not coal barons, real estate moguls and Exxon CEOs that are getting richer... but, people who were middle class just 20 years ago, but rose up to rival and threaten the power of old money?

[Bodakane]

As I've been trying to get people to understand about the meat industry (which is the same for all big industry):



Between this and the shit going on with Texas power grid, there is literally no valid argument for deregulation.

[Theodarzna]

@Theodarzna thanks for proving my point.

Whatever you say King.

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While we're at it, might as well add that more natalism means less capital concentration :
-having and educating children is a massive financial drain
-forgoing or limiting those expenditure often result in the accumulation of capital, if only to prepare for retirement, which will be poured in the stock-market, real estate, etc...
-lots of children/heirs = quicker dispersion of capital

That is another solid point(s).

[Vegas82]

Whatever you say King.

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That is another solid point(s).

Such a great response! Remind me why the dems are responsible for GOP press releases again... or for the first time. You’ve had weeks to catch up on this shit.

[Kellhound]

Why are you talking about development? IT jobs are not only development... my links are not talking about just development. I am not a developer...



That’s not how you derive jobs from a medium.

What do you mean by heavy industry? You are complaining about 28k NEW jobs, when we spent millions prepping up 42k jobs, that are decreasing. Outside keeping old money rich... what is the point of forcing a dying industry, when there is a booming one? Oil Barron’s need their billions from tax payers?



You are shitting on in demand jobs, that pay more than the jobs being lost, because of left leaning? I am pointing out the demand... the pay... and the variety of jobs coming from Information Technology... for you to respond with some bullshit about left leaning? Is this about jobs or pushing ideology? Is this about jobs or calling billionaires conservatives, so you can protect their failing industry in the name of fighting leftist?



Since it’s not... what’s going on here? Let me guess, the last 20 years of growth doesn’t count, because it’s new billionaires? It’s not coal barons, real estate moguls and Exxon CEOs that are getting richer... but, people who were middle class just 20 years ago, but rose up to rival and threaten the power of old money?

8 or the 10 jobs listed in the article you linked are described as needing a BA/BS or better. Those are generally equivalent to a CS programmer.

I am aware of that, just using it as an easy barometer.

Heavy industry is such things as shipyards, heavy equipment, aircraft, steel production. One might include Fabs in it as well.

I wasn't the one brining politics into it. There is no doubt there is a significant left lean to high tech people in general. I have plenty of experience working with people in tech jobs. I spent several years in software development, have a degree in IT and am finishing up my masters in data analytics. I am not shitting on the new jobs, I am lamenting the ones we have lost over the past decades.

The percentage of the upper class has increase, the percentage of lower class has increased about as much, the middle class is smaller. Any shift in labor demands that increases the lower class is not really good. Unless you enjoy the idea of only having a lower and upper class with even more significant wealth inequity we already have.

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As I've been trying to get people to understand about the meat industry (which is the same for all big industry):

Between this and the shit going on with Texas power grid, there is literally no valid argument for deregulation.

It is not a matter of if there should be regulation, but of the correct amount.

[Bodakane]

It is not a matter of if there should be regulation, but of the correct amount.

There's 3 kinds of regulations:

1. The kind that forces businesses to the right/safe things. These grow and become extensive as new dangers/issues emerge and as businesses find new loopholes to not comply.
2. The kind that that are pushed by businesses through lobbies/PACs to hurt their competition.
3. Archaic ones that no ones uses, is worried about or are enforced.

#3 is not relevant and not worth effort right now.

The big problems are #1 & #2, but they are 100% the fault of businesses themselves. Businesses are like teenagers in that they don't follow the rules in place to keep them safe and honest then bitch and moan when they get caught and are then subjected to stricter rules because of their own indiscretions.

This is what happens when you have a philosophy, Capitalism, that is only concerned with the bottom line. Not ethics. Not fairness. Not compassion. Just money.

[Felya]

8 or the 10 jobs listed in the article you linked are described as needing a BA/BS or better. Those are generally equivalent to a CS programmer.

No, they are not... you are making shit up and think it’s a point because you generalize.

I am aware of that, just using it as an easy barometer.

It’s easier, because being wrong, agrees with your assertion. If you used an accurate one, not one that is incorrect, but is easier to fit your assertions, you wouldn’t have a point.

Your data point is admittedly incorrect, yet your argument is based on it. :\

Heavy industry is such things as shipyards, heavy equipment, aircraft, steel production. One might include Fabs in it as well.

Why exactly would you want those jobs, while shitting on much easier and higher paying jobs, that you can usually do from home? Have you heard of the concept of mass production?

I wasn't the one brining politics into it. There is no doubt there is a significant left lean to high tech people in general. I have plenty of experience working with people in tech jobs. I spent several years in software development, have a degree in IT and am finishing up my masters in data analytics. I am not shitting on the new jobs, I am lamenting the ones we have lost over the past decades.

You are bringing politics into it... you are arguing that new money, is somehow leftist. You either don’t understand what leftist means or are repeating talking points from old money trying to hang on, as reality of modern age makes their established fortunes, obsolete.

I’ll give you an example... There are 2 corporations... one makes Antifa flags and the other makes American flags... which of these two corporation would Karl Marx claim is leftist? Which corporation most exemplifies the proletariat controlling means of production?

The percentage of the upper class has increase, the percentage of lower class has increased about as much, the middle class is smaller. Any shift in labor demands that increases the lower class is not really good. Unless you enjoy the idea of only having a lower and upper class with even more significant wealth inequity we already have.

You have not provided any evidence of this being true, but to humor this. Do you think this has any connection to half the country creating policy to fight the industry, expanding jobs in the other half of the country? Could it be that half the country got convinced that IT is liberals and are supporting legislation, like revoking 230, that explicitly hinders jobs with upward mobility?

Amazon has been paying 15$ an hour for a while... Walmart is now promising the same... guess why... they are going on all on online shopping, targeting Amazon. Oh hey! IT jobs from Waltons... that’s “conservative”... right?

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Ya’ll supported the removal of prop 230, which would cost hundreds of thousands of well paying jobs, because Trump didn’t like how he was being treated on something so trivial, as social media. Why? Because they are liberal jobs... wtf?

[Kathandira]

This is wild. California, the state with the, if not one of, highest cost of living would do such a thing.

I'd more readily accept and support mid western states with way lower costs of living being allowed to pay lower than the federal minimum as that makes more sense.

People should be bringing this to court immediately.

[Felya]

This is what happens when you have a philosophy, Capitalism, that is only concerned with the bottom line. Not ethics. Not fairness. Not compassion. Just money.

What? I thought IT corporations were socialist?

Yes, it’s fucking sarcasm...

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This is wild. California, the state with the, if not one of, highest cost of living would do such a thing.

I'd more readily accept and support mid western states with way lower costs of living being allowed to pay lower than the federal minimum as that makes more sense.

People should be bringing this to court immediately.

This was a vote by the people... corporate advertising/marketing beat the what ever none profits were pushing against it.

[Flarelaine]

What does this have to do with immigration?

Migrants moved back and forth across the US/Mexican border ever since there wasn't even really a border there, doing farming work further north in the summer and moving back down to Mexico in the colder months.

And before them, there were integral migrants, say, from the Prairie states. Underpaid and illegally employed workers have been a part of America's agriculture since like forever. So maybe, just maybe, the problem has fuck all to do with immigration and a lot with employer greed and labour laws (or the lack thereof).

[Felya]

And before them, there were integral migrants, say, from the Prairie states. Underpaid and illegally employed workers have been a part of America's agriculture since like forever. So maybe, just maybe, the problem has fuck all to do with immigration and a lot with employer greed and labour laws (or the lack thereof).

What does this have to do with gig workers? I am aware of migrant workers, but this isn’t about that...

[Kathandira]

What? I thought IT corporations were socialist?

Yes, it’s fucking sarcasm...

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This was a vote by the people... corporate advertising/marketing beat the what ever none profits were pushing against it.

I need to read into this. How could the citizens vote in their worst interest!? What a world...

[Felya]

I need to read into this. How could the citizens vote in their worst interest!? What a world...

That part is easy...

[Flarelaine]

What does this have to do with gig workers? I am aware of migrant workers, but this isn’t about that...

The strong underlying current of unregulated employment is the common theme.

[Themius]

I need to read into this. How could the citizens vote in their worst interest!? What a world...

Advertising. Basically mass manipulation of the California populace.

[Katchii]

I need to read into this. How could the citizens vote in their worst interest!? What a world...

Because depending on who you talk to, even among gig workers, it wasn't in their worst interest. Clearly most folks agreed with that mentality otherwise it wouldn't have been voted on the way it was.

[Felya]

Because depending on who you talk to, even among gig workers, it wasn't in their worst interest. Clearly most folks agreed with that mentality otherwise it wouldn't have been voted on the way it was.

Because both sides argued it was for the benefit of the workers, but the side that was helping corporations had more money to push their version of helping workers.

[Katchii]

Because both sides argued it was for the benefit of the workers, but the side that was helping corporations had more money to push their version of helping workers.

There are some actual gig workers I know personally that fully agreed with that mentality though. In those cases the gig workers fully accepted what they were signing up for when they took the "gig" work and weren't expecting all the extra stuff working for a company would normally get them.

[Elegiac]

There are some actual gig workers I know personally that fully agreed with that mentality though. In those cases the gig workers fully accepted what they were signing up for when they took the "gig" work and weren't expecting all the extra stuff working for a company would normally get them.

The term you're looking for is "class traitor".