Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Your sub fee example is embarrassing, and you should feel embarrassed. First off, thats like saying that The Witcher 3 is P2W because you have to purchase the game to play it. Secondly, what dungeons are you soloing? And what advantage does that give you when everyone else can simply bring someone with them. Considering how simple this is, you seem to be having a really tough time understanding it.

    If anyone wants an example of being extremely disingenuous for the sake of trying to win an internet discussion, this is the textbook example: "Wow is P2W because it has a subscription" Yikes dude, HUGE yikes.

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    Lucky we are talking about a video game, and not life.
    It does not make much difference.

    People buy time every day, for everything. I didn’t touch Vanilla because I could not stand again the 1-60 tedium, if there would have been a “buy a level 60” boost I would have probably given it a try again, just in name of old memories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludvig View Post
    Leveling was part of TBC. If they don't wanna spend a couple weeks (not months) advancing their character they shouldn't be playing MMORPGs.
    Please, there’s no way you can get 1-60 in two weeks unless you play 5-6 hours a day plus perfectly know what to do, how and where and with the right class/spec.

    That’s exactly why the boost exists.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher557 View Post
    Lol wait now you’re bringing in another party to this? Ok so what’s so different about bringing a friend to boost me through dungeons how is this an advantage?

    See I could buy two subs and boost myself, that’s pay to win. I have the advantage over someone who doesn’t have two subs and has to level themselves. If you’re bringing in another person for your example and say there’s no advantage, then those players who don’t buy the boost should just get someone to boost them so there’s no advantage.

    I know you probably don’t see this, but you literally just dismantled your entire argument.

    Your own definition was if it gets you an advantage of any kind and it’s pay it’s pay to win.

    Having two accounts gives you an advantage, full stop. And it’s behind a pay wall. That’s pay to win in your book.
    I didnt introduce another party - you offered a scenario where you believed you had an advantage by having 2 accounts - but you dont, and i pointed out why. I can elaborate since it seems a bit beyond you. You said you would solo dungeons, you said nothing about "I would use my max level character to boost my low level character through dungeons", this you added on after. Fact remains the same - it isnt an advantage - and ironically, you proved why in your first sentence - just ask a friend to do it, or pay someone gold if you need to. Until you can pay for the gold with real money, there is no advantage there. You REALLY want there to be, your entire argument depends on it, but there isnt.

    It does not allow you to complete any content that anyone else cannot complete just as easily, if not easier.

    There WAS an advantage to someone running 5+ accounts and farming mats using botting programs - Blizzard agreed, so they completely crushed that. Sure, players are working on ways around it, but Blizzard agreed that although multiple accounts are fine, as they offer no real advantage, having multiple accounts all controlled by one keyboard CAN and DOES offer an advantage.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-02-22 at 11:34 PM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    It does not make much difference.

    People buy time every day, for everything. I didn’t touch Vanilla because I could not stand again the 1-60 tedium, if there would have been a “buy a level 60” boost I would have probably given it a try again, just in name of old memories.

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    Please, there’s no way you can get 1-60 in two weeks unless you play 5-6 hours a day.

    That’s exactly why the boost exists.
    Fine dude, even if it's a month it's still a fundamental part of what the game was. Leveling is part of the experience. The boost exists because they want to make money, not as an improvement of the game.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I didnt introduce another party - you offered a scenario where you believed you had an advantage by having 2 accounts - but you dont, and i pointed out why. I can elaborate since it seems a bit beyond you. You said you would solo dungeons, you said nothing about "I would use my max level character to boost my low level character through dungeons", this you added on after. Fact remains the same - it isnt an advantage - and ironically, you proved why in your first sentence - just ask a friend to do it, or pay someone gold if you need to. Until you can pay for the gold with real money, there is no advantage there. You REALLY want there to be, your entire argument depends on it, but there isnt.

    It does not allow you to complete any content that anyone else cannot complete just as easily, if not easier.
    I’m not reading past the part where you said you’re elaborating because there is no elaboration needed. It is a factual statement to say having two accounts you can multibox gives you an advantage over another player. There is literally no arguing this. Your defense is “well the other person can just invite a friend”. That’s not how things work. If there was a feature you could pay to make your character have 2x health 2x damage in the open world, a defense for having this feature in the game isn’t “well it’s not an advantage because you can just bring a friend and it’s the same thing”.

    You lost this argument. Period.

  5. #205
    I know plenty who'd be stoked for tbc but put off by the classic grind to get there.

    This works wonders.

    For the rest of us that played/enjoyed, eh, it's another tradeskill character if wanted
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    just get a mac. It's like sleeping with a fat chick to avoid STD's.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher557 View Post
    I’m not reading past the part where you said you’re elaborating because there is no elaboration needed. It is a factual statement to say having two accounts you can multibox gives you an advantage over another player. There is literally no arguing this. Your defense is “well the other person can just invite a friend”. That’s not how things work. If there was a feature you could pay to make your character have 2x health 2x damage in the open world, a defense for having this feature in the game isn’t “well it’s not an advantage because you can just bring a friend and it’s the same thing”.

    You lost this argument. Period.
    The irony of saying "im not reading beyond the elaborate comment" and then immediately quoting something I said well beyond that comment shows again how dishonest and disingenuous you are being. You really should read beyond that point, because I very clearly explain why it doesn't offer you an advantage, especially now with the heavy crackdown on botting.

    Please, explain to me how running two accounts, remembering that you cannot use any programs that send commands from one keyboard to more than one character, offers you an advantage over the average player? The fact is you still have to actively sit there on your main and power level your other account - and i say again - this is something anyone can do, without paying real money.

    Having a character be 2 x more powerful is in absolutely no way comparable to having 2 ppl playing the game - yet another example with no bearing on the current conversation - they are not the same thing. Now if you could pay real money to double your characters power, this absolutely would be an extremely egregious example of P2W.

    And lastly, dont raise your hands in victory just yet - because the discusion is not about 2 accounts, or faction changes - its about whether being able to skip 58 levels of content - weeks if not months of grinding for most people - but only if you fork over real money is an example of P2W. So, if anything, you ironically proved me right by claiming far less egregious examples are P2W...
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-02-22 at 11:49 PM.

  7. #207
    Half of this thread seems to be from one person arguing the semantics of what is and isn't pay to win. The reality though is does it matter? That may not be their argument, but it's just a waste of time otherwise. The change may be on 'technicality' P2W, but it's done in the spirit of allowing their player base to enjoy the expansion content. It has almost no bearing on someone that doesn't use the service.

    In my own case the reason half of my friends that will come back for TBC will be because of this change. Great! It just benefits the enjoyment of the community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludvig View Post
    Fine dude, even if it's a month it's still a fundamental part of what the game was. Leveling is part of the experience. The boost exists because they want to make money, not as an improvement of the game.
    It exists to serve both, but yes of course revenue will be the largest factor as with any private organisation. But why does it matter? How does this hurt you? It just allows friends to come back to the game that otherwise wouldn't and play together. What is the need to complaining?

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by csguba View Post
    Half of this thread seems to be from one person arguing the semantics of what is and isn't pay to win. The reality though is does it matter? That may not be their argument, but it's just a waste of time otherwise. The change may be on 'technicality' P2W, but it's done in the spirit of allowing their player base to enjoy the expansion content. It has almost no bearing on someone that doesn't use the service.
    The spirit of allowing their player base to enjoy the expansion content would be offering one FREE boost per account. This is done in the spirit of making money, which im absolutely fine with, just to be clear. Personally, I think its a way of charging a "box price" fee for TBC, while rewarding those who have been playing classic and have max level characters.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by csguba View Post
    It exists to serve both, but yes of course revenue will be the largest factor as with any private organisation. But why does it matter? How does this hurt you? It just allows friends to come back to the game that otherwise wouldn't and play together. What is the need to complaining?
    It ruins the immersion of the game. If they were so concerned about this, they could just put Recruit-A-Friend (which existed towards the end of TBC) back in the game and those friends would level up really quickly if they wanted to skip leveling that much. Nobody would complain about this but in the end, it wouldn't make Blizzard as much money. It just shows the huge difference of what Blizzard used to be and what they are, the values are embarrassingly different.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The spirit of allowing their player base to enjoy the expansion content would be offering one FREE boost per account. This is done in the spirit of making money, which im absolutely fine with, just to be clear. Personally, I think its a way of charging a "box price" fee for TBC, while rewarding those who have been playing classic and have max level characters.
    Yes, it's there largely to make money. It's a private company, they all exist to make money. It's still in benefit though to the consumer and community. I realise that you understand it's there to make money, but again why then does it actually matter? Leaving the semantics behind.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludvig View Post
    It ruins the immersion of the game. If they were so concerned about this, they could just put Recruit-A-Friend (which existed towards the end of TBC) back in the game and those friends would level up really quickly if they wanted to skip leveling that much. Nobody would complain about this but in the end, it wouldn't make Blizzard as much money. It just shows the huge difference of what Blizzard used to be and what they are, the values are embarrassingly different.
    Oh dear, how innocent of you to think there is ANY change Blizzard could implement that wouldn't result in an absolute uproar from the community. To be clear, I dont think your idea is bad, just that you underestimate the appetite for outrage this community has.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The irony of saying "im not reading beyond the elaborate comment" and then immediately quoting something I said well beyond that comment shows again how dishonest and disingenuous you are being. You really should read beyond that point, because I very clearly explain why it doesn't offer you an advantage, especially now with the heavy crackdown on botting.

    Please, explain to me how running two accounts, remembering that you cannot use any programs that send commands from one keyboard to more than one character, offers you an advantage over the average player?
    Do you really not see the advantages or are you asking dumb questions to try and hold on to the little ground you have left to stand on. Seriously what’s the advantages in being able to play two characters at once compared to someone who can only play one?

    No seriously you don’t know what they are?

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWTBCGold View Post
    The Level 58 boost kinda ruins the game.
    I notice you've got a gold selling website listed in your profile.

    so yeah, I guess a level 58 boost does ruin the game for people like you who make a living off of selling level boosts LOL

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladey Gags View Post
    Who the fuck cares if it falls under your semantic definition of pay to win? It’s the fucking principle. Why the FUCK are you defending ANY amount of microtransaction practices? PLEASE tell me WHY you defend capitalist GREED? Do you not want video games to be what they used to be? Do you WANT to be fucked in the ass by greedy Bobby koticks? What the fuck?

    It’s like I’ve woken up in a fucking alternate reality where people are actually defending microtransactions. What the hell happened to you people?
    It's going to happen regardless and always has. This just offers the option of it being through blizzard instead of a sketchy 3rd party.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludvig View Post
    It ruins the immersion of the game. If they were so concerned about this, they could just put Recruit-A-Friend (which existed towards the end of TBC) back in the game and those friends would level up really quickly if they wanted to skip leveling that much. Nobody would complain about this but in the end, it wouldn't make Blizzard as much money. It just shows the huge difference of what Blizzard used to be and what they are, the values are embarrassingly different.
    But why does this matter to you? Them breaking their own immersion is their own decision, their enjoyment doesn't impact yours. Yes, it's there to make money, obviously.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by csguba View Post
    Yes, it's there largely to make money. It's a private company, they all exist to make money. It's still in benefit though to the consumer and community. I realise that you understand it's there to make money, but again why then does it actually matter? Leaving the semantics behind.
    My only objection is to the bolded part, in particular the "in the spirit of" comment - they want to remove as many barriers to entry as possible to TBC as im sure they understand how strong its appeal is - I even agree that is their motivation - to get as many ppl playing as possible - but it has nothing to do with wanting people to experience it or enjoy it or anything of that kind - its money - more subs, more MTX money - MONEY MONEY MONEY.

    And as you acknowledge, I have no issue with that - its a business, and its their intention. For some, it is a win/win, no doubt about it.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    My only objection is to the bolded part, in particular the "in the spirit of" comment - they want to remove as many barriers to entry as possible to TBC as im sure they understand how strong its appeal is - I even agree that is their motivation - to get as many ppl playing as possible - but it has nothing to do with wanting people to experience it or enjoy it or anything of that kind - its money - more subs, more MTX money - MONEY MONEY MONEY.

    And as you acknowledge, I have no issue with that - its a business, and its their intention. For some, it is a win/win, no doubt about it.
    And why for you would it be a loss?

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    I notice you've got a gold selling website listed in your profile.

    so yeah, I guess a level 58 boost does ruin the game for people like you who make a living off of selling level boosts LOL
    my guess: they'll set up shop still and will sell 70 boosts. the small advantage: this time it is 10 levels only so they will charge ridiculous prices for less time.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher557 View Post
    Do you really not see the advantages or are you asking dumb questions to try and hold on to the little ground you have left to stand on. Seriously what’s the advantages in being able to play two characters at once compared to someone who can only play one?

    No seriously you don’t know what they are?
    You made the claim that it provides an advantage - I asked you what that advantage is, and you said "i can solo dungeons". I explained the following:

    - You still had to level that main toon to max level
    - You can put the lowbie on follow, but you cannot and are not running around with the power of two characters (this is the first of your many fallacies)
    - You are not able to do anything that a normal player is able to do, whether its a friend, a stranger, or someone you give gold to.
    - You dont gain access to any content a fresh player does not have access to
    - You are not able to complete any content a fresh player is unable to complete

    So again, you made the claim, its up to you to show what advantage it offers, because so far your only examples are perfectly viable for any player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csguba View Post
    And why for you would it be a loss?
    Who said it was a loss to me?

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Who said it was a loss to me?
    I don't understand your point then. We are in agreement that it exists to make money, but why does it matter? If it's a win/win situation, then great.

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