Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #481
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    What unobtainable in game advantage is being purchased?
    For endgame focused players, the time they save levelling up is a very noticeable advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosotti View Post
    Apparently even buying a mount is p2w.
    - Look at my mount, now show me yours
    - Didn’t buy it
    - Hahaha I win
    - Fuck this piece of shit greedy company, I remember they had a soul in 1995
    I think you were being very witty when you typed this... but I would really consider editing this if I were you. Friendly advice
    Current state of WoW lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

  2. #482
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Not having to level a character for 2 months? Seems pretty damn winning to me. Like seriously consider that. The boost saves average player probably 150 hours normally leveling and questing. Assume they play 2 hours a day. That would actually be like 2.5 months. That doent even take into account people don't play every day, they might play retail as well and don't play classic every day, etc etc.

    Just because you aren't looting Ilidans warplaives and getting gladiator doesn't mean you aren't winning.
    2 months? do you play 1-2 hours a day?

  3. #483
    Scarab Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    explain to me how exactly it is start on same footage when both played for just 1 second, one is already 58 and other is lvl 1? how exactly are they same value?
    p2w is any advantage that real money gives, regardless u can achieve it later with invest lot of money or not, most p2w games btw do that: pay now to get service fast or just grind it slowly without paying

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    time, since ur time has no value for u, for me he is saving more time just because he payed more in a sub-based game already is ridiculous
    What unobtainable advantage does that translate to though? What can they do that you won't be able to do without buying the boost?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    For endgame focused players, the time they save levelling up is a very noticeable advantage.

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    I think you were being very witty when you typed this... but I would really consider editing this if I were you. Friendly advice
    But the key word to focus on, is it an unobtainable advantage? It's not. We're all gated through phases, so whether someone clears kara, gruuls and mags lair week 5 or week 15, does it really matter? This isn't a case of P2W because the player buying the boost isn't buying some unobtainable advantage. Their boost won't make them a better player, provide them with better gear or more talent points. Sure they save time, but time isn't an unobtainable advantage.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  4. #484
    Without boosts, literally no one would care about TBC Classic. Just the usual classic andy's care, who seem to be most of the people who are mad about boosts.

  5. #485
    Because If I am in a casual raiding guild. I still need to farm consumables. Professions. Dungeons. Rep.

    But oh. Someone quit or I need to play a different class? Or whatever.

    Guess I better put a month of time into just leveling. Not playing with my friends. Not doing anything I need to do to help us progress.

  6. #486
    Pandaren Monk Nalam the Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potatowizard View Post

    Guess I better put a month of time into just leveling. Not playing with my friends. Not doing anything I need to do to help us progress.
    That is how the game was back then.

    You should adapt to the game, not the other way around.
    Last edited by Nalam the Venom; 2021-05-25 at 09:05 PM.

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  7. #487
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Real money should never be able to be used as any form of time-skip in any game.
    Thats debatable. Its a fair point, but I think Classic TBC should have come with a price tag instead and included the lvl 58 boost. Thered be a lot less whinning even though were really talking about semantics. If Classic TBC was $40 and came with a boost, would it still be pay to win?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    That is how the game was back then.

    You should adapt to the game, not the other way around.
    This is a silly argument. I could say as a consumer, you adapt to business practices, not the other way around. After all, its 2021 not 2006. Expecting 15yo business practices to stay the same, when the entire industry has shifted, is wishful thinking.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  8. #488
    Pandaren Monk Nalam the Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post

    This is a silly argument. I could say as a consumer, you adapt to business practices, not the other way around. After all, its 2021 not 2006. Expecting 15yo business practices to stay the same, when the entire industry has shifted, is wishful thinking.
    How about we don't try to monetise or "Business practise" a 15 year old re-release and just let it be how it was.

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  9. #489
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    How about we don't try to monetise or "Business practise" a 15 year old re-release and just let it be how it was.
    You say "we" like you or I have any impact on it. Personally, Im not buying a boost, but thats not going to stop thousands of people from doing it, which in turn, essentially validates it as a business practice.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by wombinator04 View Post
    Without boosts, literally no one would care about TBC Classic. Just the usual classic andy's care, who seem to be most of the people who are mad about boosts.
    I’d say this is bullshit. From the moment Classic dropped, there has been people asking for TBC. Many of whom didn’t play Vanilla classic.

    I have heard countless people say they wanted nothing to do with Vanilla, but would show up for TBC. It’s got nothing to do with a boost. The boost certainly helps bring people in, especially people on the fence, but you can’t say there wasn’t an audience for TBC before the boost was a thing.

  11. #491
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smash Adams View Post
    I’d say this is bullshit. From the moment Classic dropped, there has been people asking for TBC. Many of whom didn’t play Vanilla classic.

    I have heard countless people say they wanted nothing to do with Vanilla, but would show up for TBC. It’s got nothing to do with a boost. The boost certainly helps bring people in, especially people on the fence, but you can’t say there wasn’t an audience for TBC before the boost was a thing.
    But then logic begs, why force people play content they dont want anything to do with?
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    2 months? do you play 1-2 hours a day?
    My example was 2 hours a day yes. But if someone raids in retail, as an example, then that would be 2-3 days gone per week since most people log off and are too tired to play after already raiding for 3 hours after getting home from work. So on average maybe even less per day. It could potentially take an average retail player 5-6 months to get to level 58/60.

    I'm going to assume there's quite a bit of overlap of people that play both games and maybe are still semi-casual.

    So actually, the boost might save a casual TBC player multiple months of sub fees worth of leveling.
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2021-05-25 at 11:17 PM.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    explain to me how exactly it is start on same footage when both played for just 1 second, one is already 58 and other is lvl 1? how exactly are they same value?
    p2w is any advantage that real money gives, regardless u can achieve it later with invest lot of money or not, most p2w games btw do that: pay now to get service fast or just grind it slowly without paying
    Exactly, and boosting to lvl 58 with useless gear and 0 professions isn't an advantage in an already established community. It's a way to catch up and play with your friends. If you SERIOUSLY think this is P2W looking at the game right now, you're so delusional and full of hate towards Blizzard that it's sad.

    If you entered a hobby where you build robots and compete with them, would you say it's "pay to win" if they let you buy a starter kit with a semi-functional robot while millions already have fully functional ones? No, not in a million years.

    Sigh @ people like you. Go cry a river somewhere.

  14. #494
    Paying real life money to gain an in-game advantage is the litteral definition of pay2win, regardless of how small or minor the advantage is. Skipping the lvling process up to level 58 certainly qualifies, thats 2-3 months for a casual player.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Paying real life money to gain an in-game advantage is the litteral definition of pay2win, regardless of how small or minor the advantage is. Skipping the lvling process up to level 58 certainly qualifies, thats 2-3 months for a casual player.
    exactly this. if it was only for cosmetical reasons, it would not be p2w (like skins, unique mounts (without any speed- oder level-advantage)), but it is clearly not
    Quote Originally Posted by brandonf View Post
    Dear diary,
    This is Day 85 of farming primals for tailoring set. I can’t seem to understand how everyone around me magically has an epic flyer and I’m stuck here on my 60% flying mount losing all these tags. I checked the AH today to see if they have gone down from their 400g price per primal might but they still haven’t seem to budge. I guess I’ll try again tomorrow before I break down and buy gold off of a website that sells 10k gold for $30.

  16. #496
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post

    Real money should never be able to be used as any form of time-skip in any game.
    I always wonder in what bible it says what "should" or "should not" exist. But fair enough...at the end of the day it is how we personally perceive what our games "should" be like.

    If it isn't the argument over p2w, we can (and have) gone even more pathetic and fought over the definition of WoW being an MMO(RPG) or not. (You know...as in...although wherever you look it is defined and listed as such...who cares if you can pick a fight over it?)

    As far as I am concerned, WoW never "needed" a boost feature. But here it is and people will interpret however it fits their agenda (which on MMO-C usually is "Greedy devs" or "If levelling wasn't so shit, nobody would need it") - well...to me levelling never was shit and I am actually still sitting on three free boosts.

    Now with Classic TBC...that is even stranger. Again as far as I am concerned, you would either move on from your Classic experience to TBC and lv 70 or stay forever at 60.

    But ofc not....ofc we had to get:
    -I want to keep one char at 60 in Classic but also play on a TBC server
    -I want to transfer all of my stuff (effectively asking for a clone)
    -I love TBC but don't want to level 1-60 through Classic (asking for a boost)
    etc.

    I wonder what kind of discussion we would now have if Blizzard said: "Sorry folks...progression like in 2007. Make up your mind. One character and if goes from 1-60, then either stays there or moves on. No boosts, no skips, no clones"

    I mean...it seems the sensible thing...after all people want things as they were back then, right?

    On the other hand, if you literally have people screaming "Take my money" so I can be boosted - I can see why they do.
    And screw the handful of people bitching here. And I almost mean "handful" literally. Unless there are other forums with a huge activity, this site has like a couple hundred users allowed to post (161 at the time of me writing this) and having this jerkfest over the definition whether something counts as pay to win.

    For all I care now, people may call WoW p2w - it changes zero for me. Or is this also about "winning" a hair-splitting contest on a fan forum?
    Last edited by det; 2021-05-26 at 06:27 AM.

  17. #497
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    There is no such a thing as pay to win in any wow version, simple as that. Not even gdkp, when money is obviously coming from bots. That is just another topic so I will not touch it.

    Back on topic, the issue is that people get frustrated when someone else can do or figures something that they do not, getting some sort of advantage out of it. However, you have to admit that the game is integrally perfectly designed so that, realistically, everyone has the same chance to do the same things.

    It is a trend. Because now you have more shop stuff, people call it "pay to win", but it is not, and you have to be a bit of a dummy or plain close minded not to realize that such thing, does not exist.

    Even people buying boosts for mages to boost others for gold... how is that "pay to win", what do they won? a bit of gold? how is that a "win"? Did it also give the ma full Naxx clear?
    Even people who buy gold to do gdkp don´t win anything. Unless they buy their way through a massive boost to have gear good enough to get into a Naxx gdkp... And you can´t even call it p2w then, because the gold was not obtained through the game design.

  18. #498
    The Lightbringer gutnbrg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Paying real life money to gain an in-game advantage is the litteral definition of pay2win, regardless of how small or minor the advantage is. Skipping the lvling process up to level 58 certainly qualifies, thats 2-3 months for a casual player.
    i mean its this and no1 can deny it....

  19. #499
    I feel this issue will always be around

  20. #500
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Paying real life money to gain an in-game advantage is the litteral definition of pay2win, regardless of how small or minor the advantage is. Skipping the lvling process up to level 58 certainly qualifies, thats 2-3 months for a casual player.
    This is not how I understand "literal" (unless you use it in the sense of: "emphasis while not being literally true"

    Because what I read here is your own opinion or definition. I mean...I can google "what does pay to win mean" now (and have) - and it does not at all fit what you claim (especially not the part of " regardless of how small or minor the advantage")

    But feel free to correct me and link me to a site or quote where there is an actual agreement or definition of p2w. Maybe it can help to put us all here on the same page.

    At the end of the day however - this fighting over the personal interpretation of a term is just the same futile stuff as the "casual vs hardcore" debate ^^

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