Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    You're not listening to why it's making it harder.
    1. Harder to group with players to do 1-60 dungeons.
    2. People taking my ore because they're too high of a level for mobs to attack.
    3. Huge PvP advantage against leveling players because 58 > 35.
    4. By the time leveling players hit 70 the boosted guys won't do dungeons with them because they already ran them.
    5. Encouraging more bots because those people don't pay $15 per month.
    6. Ruining the economy because of said bots.
    1- Wrong - the players who used the boost would NOT be leveling from lvl 1 - they have no interest in that - thats why they used the boost.
    2 - Its not "your" ore, and lvl 60s were doing this before the boost, nothing has changed.
    3 - Completely false - where are these lvl 58 players that are spending their time in lvl 35 zones ganking lowbies? And why wouldnt a player who leveld do the same?\
    4 - By the time leveling players hit level 70, ALL max level players, boosted or otherwise, wont do those dungeons - again, NOTHING to do with the boost.
    5 - What?
    6 - WHAT????

    You are wrong on EVERY point - you have created an issue in your mind that genuinely does not exist. The people who paid for the boost did so because they had no intention of playing through Vanilla. Maybe they had a 60, but wanted to change class. Maybe they wanted an alt. Maybe they had no interest in Vanilla at all, but did have an interest in TBCC. But in absolutely no reality did their decision to boost a character hinder or impede your progress in any way. What your argument boils down to is this fantasy world were without the boost, everyone would have stayed out of TBC, and continued leveling alts and doing dungeons with you until you caught up. TBC is out - everyone has moved on - it has nothing to do with the boost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  2. #662
    Boosts have good sides as well. I boosted an alt tank for my guild. I am leveling the tank on my own / with pugs. Therefore the server has one more tank in the pool, especially for those players which are not that fast. On one hand we have boosters with a lot of experience and the capability to play multiple classes on a advanced level. On the other hand offers the boost the opportunity for new, less experienced or casuals players to figure out new stuff or being able to play with there communities. These both groups represent the biggest part of narratives in this regard imo. The last one of a third is split between all the other mentalities.

    A boosted character with its communism gear is weak as hell. No money, no professions, no nothing. This circumstance is not very newb or casual friendly. A part of this group wont make it to level cap.

  3. #663
    So, there are 2 sides here.

    1 that wants wow to be P2W so they can cry about it.
    1 that just Google, Read the definition of P2W and realize wow has none of it.

    Pick your side.

  4. #664
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    1- Wrong - the players who used the boost would NOT be leveling from lvl 1 - they have no interest in that - thats why they used the boost.
    2 - Its not "your" ore, and lvl 60s were doing this before the boost, nothing has changed.
    3 - Completely false - where are these lvl 58 players that are spending their time in lvl 35 zones ganking lowbies? And why wouldnt a player who leveld do the same?\
    4 - By the time leveling players hit level 70, ALL max level players, boosted or otherwise, wont do those dungeons - again, NOTHING to do with the boost.
    5 - What?
    6 - WHAT????
    1. If you're playing the game then you have to start from lvl 1. Then you have to do stockades, gnomer, and SM.
    2. It's not lvl 60's but lvl 58's.
    3. Completely true as that's something you could do. Trust me it happened.
    4. It's a realistic problem.
    5. What?
    6. WHAT??
    You are wrong on EVERY point - you have created an issue in your mind that genuinely does not exist.
    Firstly, half of those I have dealt with personally like 1-60 dungeons, mining, and ganking. Doing dungeons at 70, botting, and ruining the economy are a theory that I'm sure is going to happen if it hasn't happened already.
    The people who paid for the boost did so because they had no intention of playing through Vanilla. Maybe they had a 60, but wanted to change class. Maybe they wanted an alt. Maybe they had no interest in Vanilla at all, but did have an interest in TBCC. But in absolutely no reality did their decision to boost a character hinder or impede your progress in any way. What your argument boils down to is this fantasy world were without the boost, everyone would have stayed out of TBC, and continued leveling alts and doing dungeons with you until you caught up. TBC is out - everyone has moved on - it has nothing to do with the boost.
    I understand but by no means should Activision be charging a fee to get a boost 58. Either everyone gets a boost or nobody gets a boost. You have to make things fair and personally I prefer not to have the boost since TBC wasn't designed to have it. Activision doesn't know how boosting could alter the games economy and leveling experience for players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    So, there are 2 sides here.

    1 that wants wow to be P2W so they can cry about it.
    1 that just Google, Read the definition of P2W and realize wow has none of it.

    Pick your side.
    One side claims there's no P2W and it's in our heads. The other side claims it's very much P2W. Yours is stupid.

  5. #665
    Community: Doesn’t want p2w. Wants everyone to earn their way.

    Also community: sells crafted epics and patterns for 10k+. (Yes, this will deflate some, but not much while T4 is current)

    It doesn’t matter what Blizzard does because the community itself will always be it’s own worst enemy.

    When they’re forced to release a WoW token because players literally can’t afford raid consumables and pre-bis gear, don’t blame Blizzard. Blame the community.

    And spare me the “you don’t need this to raid.” The community also does a stand-up job of gating people from entry gear.

    Is the community at fault for everything bad with the game? Hell no. Are they doing everything in their power to exacerbate it? Absolutely.
    Last edited by Prag; 2021-06-11 at 12:47 PM.

  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    One side claims there's no P2W and it's in our heads. The other side claims it's very much P2W.
    The side claiming that it's p2w has never been able to point out where the "win" is. Define win, and then point to where Blizzard is selling wins. I can tell you what winning isn't. Winning isn't ganking lowbies, it isn't mining your nodes, and it isn't merely being level 58.

  7. #667
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    1. If you're playing the game then you have to start from lvl 1. Then you have to do stockades, gnomer, and SM.
    2. It's not lvl 60's but lvl 58's.
    3. Completely true as that's something you could do. Trust me it happened.
    4. It's a realistic problem.
    5. What?
    6. WHAT??

    Firstly, half of those I have dealt with personally like 1-60 dungeons, mining, and ganking. Doing dungeons at 70, botting, and ruining the economy are a theory that I'm sure is going to happen if it hasn't happened already.

    I understand but by no means should Activision be charging a fee to get a boost 58. Either everyone gets a boost or nobody gets a boost. You have to make things fair and personally I prefer not to have the boost since TBC wasn't designed to have it. Activision doesn't know how boosting could alter the games economy and leveling experience for players.

    - - - Updated - - -



    One side claims there's no P2W and it's in our heads. The other side claims it's very much P2W. Yours is stupid.
    But it's not. It's really not. The only argument would be "WAAH WAH IF YOU BOOST YOU GET A HEAD START". But is it an advantage? Not really. Because the one who didnt boost might be both better and have more time on his hands, which means that the boost is simply just a boost. And they didn't clear Karazhan or even reach 70 faster.

    Pay 2 Win is when you buy an obvious ADVANTAGE (not a boost) like special items, armor, skills that other players can't get unless they also buy them. It's NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND. It's actually quite saddening to see how so many people go out of their way to justify that Blizzard / WoW use P2W just to hate on it.

    Then quit the damn game, because it's not P2W and you just hate the game.

  8. #668
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    But it's not. It's really not. The only argument would be "WAAH WAH IF YOU BOOST YOU GET A HEAD START". But is it an advantage? Not really. Because the one who didnt boost might be both better and have more time on his hands, which means that the boost is simply just a boost. And they didn't clear Karazhan or even reach 70 faster.

    Pay 2 Win is when you buy an obvious ADVANTAGE (not a boost) like special items, armor, skills that other players can't get unless they also buy them. It's NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND. It's actually quite saddening to see how so many people go out of their way to justify that Blizzard / WoW use P2W just to hate on it.

    Then quit the damn game, because it's not P2W and you just hate the game.
    So basically because you don't think it's an advantage, that means it's not one? Do you know what the definition of advantage is? As you said, it's not hard to understand. You are directly purchasing player power with real world money. That makes it p2w. There is nothing in game that grants you the ability to skip 58 levels of content without spending real money. This isn't a case of people hating on the game. This is a case of you bending over backwards to avoid saying anything negative about Blizzard.

  9. #669
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    So basically because you don't think it's an advantage, that means it's not one? Do you know what the definition of advantage is? As you said, it's not hard to understand. You are directly purchasing player power with real world money. That makes it p2w. There is nothing in game that grants you the ability to skip 58 levels of content without spending real money. This isn't a case of people hating on the game. This is a case of you bending over backwards to avoid saying anything negative about Blizzard.
    Leveling != power.

    And while I agree it’s muddy water, pretending or disregarding the fact that you can literally sit from 1-60 at a dungeon entrance to get leveled for gold (that you purchased) is just not painting the whole picture.

    Or we can talk about GDKPs where people are actually buying power.

    You aren’t winning anything in TBC by being level 58. It doesn’t make you better at the game. It doesn’t equip you better for Outlands questing. It’s literally buying time, at a significant cost when you have 0 reputation, professions or gold.

    Leveling 1-58 via questing with adjusted prices will get you leveled professions, reputations, and most of the way to an epic mount. That’s the trade-off.

  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Leveling != power.

    And while I agree it’s muddy water, pretending or disregarding the fact that you can literally sit from 1-60 at a dungeon entrance to get leveled for gold (that you purchased) is just not painting the whole picture.

    Or we can talk about GDKPs where people are actually buying power.

    You aren’t winning anything in TBC by being level 58. It doesn’t make you better at the game. It doesn’t equip you better for Outlands questing. It’s literally buying time, at a significant cost when you have 0 reputation, professions or gold.

    Leveling 1-58 via questing with adjusted prices will get you leveled professions, reputations, and most of the way to an epic mount. That’s the trade-off.
    Stop getting hung up on the "win" word. Because otherwise, p2w games simply don't exist. Not getting rep or professions is irrelevant. Your character's power increases with level. Since you can buy 58 levels worth of power(something that takes A LOT of time in classic and TBC), you are spending real money for power and that's a form of p2w.

  11. #671
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Stop getting hung up on the "win" word. Because otherwise, p2w games simply don't exist. Not getting rep or professions is irrelevant. Your character's power increases with level. Since you can buy 58 levels worth of power(something that takes A LOT of time in classic and TBC), you are spending real money for power and that's a form of p2w.
    Except they do exist. APB, Warframe and a ton of Chinese MMO’s are actually pay to win. They’re not some watered down “we’ll get you to the point where you can play current content”.

    The boost is a money grab of course. But charging someone $40 or w/e and then making them grind another 50 hours is a hard sell on winning.

    You don’t like being stuck on “winning” for a reason. You can’t actually point to what the fuck anyone’s winning, other than actually being able to play the expansion you’re signing up for.

  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Except they do exist. APB, Warframe and a ton of Chinese MMO’s are actually pay to win. They’re not some watered down “we’ll get you to the point where you can play current content”.

    The boost is a money grab of course. But charging someone $40 or w/e and then making them grind another 50 hours is a hard sell on winning.

    You don’t like being stuck on “winning” for a reason. You can’t actually point to what the fuck anyone’s winning, other than actually being able to play the expansion you’re signing up for.
    I play Warframe. You don't "win" by paying money in that game. You can pay real money for extra stuff that increases player power but there is no "winning". Am I saying it's not p2w? No I'm not. but it's p2w in the exact same way WoW is. You spend money to skip time. Why is it when Warframe does it it's p2w but when WoW does THE EXACT SAME THING it stops being p2w?

    Buying character power is a form of p2w by definition. So therefore, paid character level boosts are p2w.

  13. #673
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I play Warframe. You don't "win" by paying money in that game. You can pay real money for extra stuff that increases player power but there is no "winning". Am I saying it's not p2w? No I'm not. but it's p2w in the exact same way WoW is. You spend money to skip time. Why is it when Warframe does it it's p2w but when WoW does THE EXACT SAME THING it stops being p2w?

    Buying character power is a form of p2w by definition. So therefore, paid character level boosts are p2w.
    You can’t still buy platinum and weapons? I didn’t play, just happened to catch some streams.

    I guess we’ve kinda established that there isn’t really “winning” and boiled the argument back down to not liking micro-transactions.

  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    You can’t still buy platinum and weapons? I didn’t play, just happened to catch some streams.

    I guess we’ve kinda established that there isn’t really “winning” and boiled the argument back down to not liking micro-transactions.
    Much like the WoW character boosts, you can achieve those items buy buying a blueprint and grinding the game. Buying them with platinum just speeds it up. Both the Warframe example and the character boosts in WoW are examples of p2w. Because spending the money grants you character power immediately as opposed to people not spending money who have to do a lot of grinding to get to the same point.

  15. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    When they’re forced to release a WoW token because players literally can’t afford raid consumables and pre-bis gear, don’t blame Blizzard. Blame the community.
    Yeah sure, Blizzard being lazy as fuck when it comes to banning bots is naturally the fault of the community.

    Blizzard not enforcing their own ToS is also the fault of the community, i guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    When they’re forced to release a WoW token because players literally can’t afford raid consumables and pre-bis gear, don’t blame Blizzard. Blame the community.
    Blizzard also watched the entire World buffs fiesta without lifting a finger until a few months before TBC and those were far more powerful than every craftable and consumable in TBC combined.

    Be real, the only thing "forcing" them to release the WoW Token in TBC is a bad quarter.

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yeah sure, Blizzard being lazy as fuck when it comes to banning bots is naturally the fault of the community.

    Blizzard not enforcing their own ToS is also the fault of the community, i guess.

    Blizzard also watched the entire World buffs fiesta without lifting a finger until a few months before TBC and those were far more powerful than every craftable and consumable in TBC combined.

    Be real, the only thing "forcing" them to release the WoW Token in TBC is a bad quarter.
    If gold buyers were as much of a minority as you’d like to convey with this sentiment, then the demand wouldn’t justify the number of bots. They’d just funnel more into a game with higher demand. So yes, the community is at fault and the issues I pointed out exacerbate it.

    What if - crazy idea time - the reason they don’t enforce it as much as you’d deem “acceptable” is because it is so ubiquitous?

    Calling that out doesn’t absolve Blizzard or bots from their faults, either.

  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    So, there are 2 sides here.

    1 that wants wow to be P2W so they can cry about it.
    1 that just Google, Read the definition of P2W and realize wow has none of it.

    Pick your side.
    I find wow is P2W while having used the boost and have no problems with it, or desire to see it changed lol

    I paid IRL cash to skip a large portion of the game. P2W.

  18. #678
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Look up the word advantage and don't get hung up on the "win" word. Because if you base it off the literal word win then p2w games don't exist. But in reality, p2w means you can spend real money to gain an advantage in a game over other players through character power. Since you are able to spend money to skip 58 levels of content, you are directly purchasing character power and have an advantage over players not buying the boost.
    Pay 2 win games have existed in the past. World of Tanks used to sell gold ammo that penetrated armour and could only be bought for real money. RIFT had trinket slots for your character that could only be accessed with real money. Those are actual tangible advantages that were only accessible to people who paid for them.

  19. #679
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    If gold buyers were as much of a minority as you’d like to convey with this sentiment, then the demand wouldn’t justify the number of bots.
    Because it doesn't take a lot of people to pump hundreds of thousand of gold into the economy.

    And frankly, when word gets around that Blizzard does not enforce their own rules (a.k.a. does not ban the people that engage in such transactions) then other people will also be more inclined to engage in it.
    Rules after all need to be enforced, the ToS isn't something that works off the honor system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    What if - crazy idea time - the reason they don’t enforce it as much as you’d deem “acceptable” is because it is so ubiquitous?
    Type /who Blackrock Depths Rogue to see what i mean.

    The solutions are:
    (1) Those mobs around the Arena no longer have their pockets respawn
    (2) Those mobs no longer have something to pickpocket
    (3) Accounts that have nothing but a boosted Rogue on it which spend the entire day in BRD get flagged, so a assigned person can look into the matter and potentially perma ban them

    If you want to see another source of that gold that people buy: try /who Zul'farrak Mage

    Do you also notice something strange about the level of those characters?


    When a /who search already reveals a multitide of bot accounts, with bots enganging in farm methods that people have known since Classic, then you can't come around and talk about "ubiquitous", because Blizzard doesn't even get the basics right.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-06-12 at 01:29 PM.

  20. #680
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I find wow is P2W while having used the boost and have no problems with it, or desire to see it changed lol

    I paid IRL cash to skip a large portion of the game. P2W.
    What did you win though?

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