Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    So, there are 2 sides here.

    1 that wants wow to be P2W so they can cry about it.
    1 that just Google, Read the definition of P2W and realize wow has none of it.

    Pick your side.
    I find wow is P2W while having used the boost and have no problems with it, or desire to see it changed lol

    I paid IRL cash to skip a large portion of the game. P2W.

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Look up the word advantage and don't get hung up on the "win" word. Because if you base it off the literal word win then p2w games don't exist. But in reality, p2w means you can spend real money to gain an advantage in a game over other players through character power. Since you are able to spend money to skip 58 levels of content, you are directly purchasing character power and have an advantage over players not buying the boost.
    Pay 2 win games have existed in the past. World of Tanks used to sell gold ammo that penetrated armour and could only be bought for real money. RIFT had trinket slots for your character that could only be accessed with real money. Those are actual tangible advantages that were only accessible to people who paid for them.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    If gold buyers were as much of a minority as you’d like to convey with this sentiment, then the demand wouldn’t justify the number of bots.
    Because it doesn't take a lot of people to pump hundreds of thousand of gold into the economy.

    And frankly, when word gets around that Blizzard does not enforce their own rules (a.k.a. does not ban the people that engage in such transactions) then other people will also be more inclined to engage in it.
    Rules after all need to be enforced, the ToS isn't something that works off the honor system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    What if - crazy idea time - the reason they don’t enforce it as much as you’d deem “acceptable” is because it is so ubiquitous?
    Type /who Blackrock Depths Rogue to see what i mean.

    The solutions are:
    (1) Those mobs around the Arena no longer have their pockets respawn
    (2) Those mobs no longer have something to pickpocket
    (3) Accounts that have nothing but a boosted Rogue on it which spend the entire day in BRD get flagged, so a assigned person can look into the matter and potentially perma ban them

    If you want to see another source of that gold that people buy: try /who Zul'farrak Mage

    Do you also notice something strange about the level of those characters?


    When a /who search already reveals a multitide of bot accounts, with bots enganging in farm methods that people have known since Classic, then you can't come around and talk about "ubiquitous", because Blizzard doesn't even get the basics right.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-06-12 at 01:29 PM.

  4. #684
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I find wow is P2W while having used the boost and have no problems with it, or desire to see it changed lol

    I paid IRL cash to skip a large portion of the game. P2W.
    What did you win though?

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Because it doesn't take a lot of people to pump hundreds of thousand of gold into the economy.

    And frankly, when word gets around that Blizzard does not enforce their own rules (a.k.a. does not ban the people that engage in such transactions) then other people will also be more inclined to engage in it.
    Rules after all need to be enforced, the ToS isn't something that works off the honor system.

    Type /who Blackrock Depths Rogue to see what i mean.

    The solutions are:
    (1) Those mobs around the Arena no longer have their pockets respawn
    (2) Those mobs no longer have something to pickpocket
    (3) Accounts that have nothing but a boosted Rogue on it which spend the entire day in BRD get flagged, so a assigned person can look into the matter and potentially perma ban them

    If you want to see another source of that gold that people buy: try /who Zul'farrak Mage

    Do you also notice something strange about the level of those characters?


    When a /who search already reveals a multitide of bot accounts, with bots enganging in farm methods that people have known since Classic, then you can't come around and talk about "ubiquitous", because Blizzard doesn't even get the basics right.
    Either you missed the point or don’t know what ubiquitous means. Either way, none of this does anything but confirm that there are tons of bots because there are tons of gold buyers.

    A quick search shows some inventories on popular servers in the millions of gold. If they weren’t confident the demand was present, they wouldn’t have wasted the resources.

    Tl;dr - the community perpetuates the massive demand by inflating costs (gear, mats, consumes, GDKP) to a point where it’s out of reach for the average player, which is the target. Above average players don’t need most of this - they either have it within the guild or have gotten equivalent/better through content.

    Edit to add: agreed they really need to make an aggressive campaign against it. It’s out of control.

  6. #686
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    What did you win though?
    I asked the same question. Apparently (going by the other thread on this that has like 1800 pages) the answer is: "time".

    And when I dared point out that saving 36 hrs doesn't really seem to concern anyone...since people are spending 200, 400, 700, 1000+ days /played in this game, then it is "the principle".

    The p2w "definition" that you purchase items or powers that other cannot get in the game is also stretched and distorted to "well you get to the endgame faster and thus to items that make you more powerful" or "well, by paying for boosts you get powerful items that you otherwise wouldn't get".

    So apparently WoW was already "p2w" way back in Vanilla, where guilds sold spots in their raids, only then the gold needed could only be purchased illegally if you hadn't farmed it. Another interesting aspect...as ppl rather see scammy goldsellers profit by Blizzard.

    I also never get a reply when I ask those ppl if they are sticking to their guys and quit the game. In extension I truly hope that since Blizzard's game model disgusts them, they are now taking the good fight to companies like Apple or Amazon. I mean...when also exploiting and underpaying their workers and filling the pockets of their CEOs is truly making them so mad like this "LadyGagz" guy on page one who uses a profanity as every other word in caps.

  7. #687
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    What did you win though?
    Paying money to not play a game they payed for. Sounds stupid when put into that context.
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    The p2w "definition" that you purchase items or powers that other cannot get in the game is also stretched and distorted to "well you get to the endgame faster and thus to items that make you more powerful" or "well, by paying for boosts you get powerful items that you otherwise wouldn't get".
    Pay to win clearly doesn't have a single definition and a lot of game developers like this because it allows them to sell more micro-transactions. Cosmetic micro-transactions obviously don't sell as well as ones that actually have tangible benefits. Just to inform you that some moderators here are actually game developers, though to what games I don't know. They clearly like to change the definition of what is P2W, but it really doesn't matter because it's what the community feels is P2W and that isn't going to change by moderating a relatively small forum. A good deal of people outside of MMO-Champion feel that paid boosts are P2W.

    Not enough for some people to quit the game because the benefit to a paid boost is limited to a certain amount of time. Once everyone is 70 and settled down then you don't have any particular advantage anymore. That still doesn't change the fact you did and will abuse it for at least a few months.
    So apparently WoW was already "p2w" way back in Vanilla, where guilds sold spots in their raids, only then the gold needed could only be purchased illegally if you hadn't farmed it. Another interesting aspect...as ppl rather see scammy goldsellers profit by Blizzard.
    It's not P2W when the corporation who made the game isn't the one selling it. It's a community problem and therefore not P2W. It's actually promoted by Activision not going after gold sellers. We are paying $15 a month so Activision can afford to pay someone to go after bots and gold sellers better.
    I also never get a reply when I ask those ppl if they are sticking to their guys and quit the game.
    The people who made TBC are not the same people who are running the company now. You want to play your game but now some other terrible company took it over and is now trying hard to ruin it by making sort term profits. This is why 50% of players are leaving Activision/Blizzard games because they got sick of it. There's no reason for an OverWatch 2 when OverWatch one is all you need, but this is just another quick path to money that is just going to divide the community and cause more people to leave OverWatch to play other games. You know like TF2 which is older and still popular for people to play on.
    In extension I truly hope that since Blizzard's game model disgusts them, they are now taking the good fight to companies like Apple or Amazon. I mean...when also exploiting and underpaying their workers and filling the pockets of their CEOs is truly making them so mad like this "LadyGagz" guy on page one who uses a profanity as every other word in caps.
    Who doesn't hate Amazon and Apple? Pretty sure they're one of the top most hated companies today.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    What did you win though?
    Quick and easy access to endgame. A load of talents. Gear to help me along the way. Decent sized bags. A little bit of gold. A mount and mount training.

    I consider all those things a win, considering you start with none of those at the beginning of the game, and may even have only *some to none of those by the time you hit max level.

    A week later and TBC released. I was fresh and ready to go. I never got any /spits, and I was even invited to a ZG and AQ20 pug. Ran them all the way through, even got a few pieces of gear. No insults, no refusal to invite, nobody even questioned me on my communal gear. In fact some players even gave me tips.

    It's quite the opposite of what some weirdos are saying here, claiming buying a boost made their lives harder lmao

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    Paying money to not play a game they payed for. Sounds stupid when put into that context.
    What are you talking about? I'm playing through TBC. I just didn't wanna quest through classic because everyone had already moved on to preparing for TBC. Azeroth would be double empty by the time TBC went live as well. Also, this is a new account I'm playing on, as I no longer have my old one and do not wish to go through what I've already gone through a second time.
    Last edited by Stardrift; 2021-06-12 at 03:55 PM.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    Paying money to not play a game they payed for. Sounds stupid when put into that context.
    People are holding way too tightly to this assumption that everyone wants to completely re-experience the whole journey, or that they should have to.

    If someone knew they wanted to play TBC and wanted to experience Classic, they’d have started playing literally any time over the last 2 years.

    Despite assumptions, it’s obvious the re-releases are intended as siloed experiences. You have Classic Era, TBC Classic and I assume at some point more Classics. If the intention were a linear re-experience, they wouldn’t have separated Classic Era and TBC in such a way.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    What did you win though?
    What are you winning on other P2W type games?

    Or is your intention to state that the label P2W is not accurate and that no game is really "Pay to Win"?

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Quick and easy access to endgame. A load of talents. Gear to help me along the way. Decent sized bags. A little bit of gold. A mount and mount training.

    I consider all those things a win, considering you start with none of those at the beginning of the game, and may even have only *some to none of those by the time you hit max level.

    A week later and TBC released. I was fresh and ready to go. I never got any /spits, and I was even invited to a ZG and AQ20 pug. Ran them all the way through, even got a few pieces of gear. No insults, no refusal to invite, nobody even questioned me on my communal gear. In fact some players even gave me tips.

    It's quite the opposite of what some weirdos are saying here, claiming buying a boost made their lives harder lmao

    - - - Updated - - -



    What are you talking about? I'm playing through TBC. I just didn't wanna quest through classic because everyone had already moved on to preparing for TBC. Azeroth would be double empty by the time TBC went live as well. Also, this is a new account I'm playing on, as I no longer have my old one and do not wish to go through what I've already gone through a second time.
    So you won time. Wow. You're a champ.

    You do know you're really running out of time, though, right? You have been since the day you were born. So no matter if it takes five minutes, five days, five weeks, or five months, it really doesn't matter in the long run.
    Still calling them out, one infraction at a time.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    So you won time. Wow. You're a champ.

    You do know you're really running out of time, though, right? You have been since the day you were born. So no matter if it takes five minutes, five days, five weeks, or five months, it really doesn't matter in the long run.
    I just wanna be there for the launch of TBC, when everyone is doing everything. Idc about "saving time".

    Also, what's your point? Lmao

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    So you won time. Wow. You're a champ.

    You do know you're really running out of time, though, right? You have been since the day you were born. So no matter if it takes five minutes, five days, five weeks, or five months, it really doesn't matter in the long run.
    Really crossing my fingers I don't bump into you in a professional field, if that's your view on time and the likes. lol

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Either way, none of this does anything but confirm that there are tons of bots because there are tons of gold buyers.
    Why are there tons of goldbuyers?
    Because they get away with it.

    When people can trade tens of thousands of gold from one account to another without Blizzard even taking a look how an account acquired that gold in the first place, then it's frankly Blizzard turning a blind eye towards goldbuying.

    After all, they can read any account like an open book, they can check from where someone acquired this sort of gold and how, if someone had lots of gold in their mailbox over a period of time from questionable accounts, that's red flag, when they put up an auction for some item completely over market value and their buyer was some shady account, that's a red flag.

    At the end of the day, what is happening within WoW is completely transparent to Blizzard, it's just that anything that eludes automated detection will fly past them - and the people who have a monetary interest in selling gold naturally put in some effort to find out what those automated parameters are to avoid them.

    Take the most egregious example, something such as Gressil selling for 200k, you can't tell me with a straight that a person tasked with finding & banning players who purchased gold wouldn't find some very fishy activity on an account that acquired a sum of gold that normally takes thousands of hours to acquire.

    And honestly, when Blizzard already drops the ball on such easy to spot goldfarmers, then i have to assume that their actions against goldbuyers are very much absent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Tl;dr - the community perpetuates the massive demand by inflating costs (gear, mats, consumes, GDKP) to a point where it’s out of reach for the average player, which is the target.
    It's just inflation occurring, there is nobody actively enforcing these prices.
    When someone sets up an auction for tremendous prices and someone who purchased gold chooses to buy it, then that's how it is, there is no "people who bought gold can't buy it" option.

    This is not the community the "perpetuating" anything, this is basic economics.
    Blaming the community on this issue is like blaming society for fake money, except in this instance, one could at least attempt to verify whether you're given fake money.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-06-12 at 04:51 PM.

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Why are there tons of goldbuyers?
    Because they get away with it.

    When people can trade tens of thousands of gold from one account to another without Blizzard even taking a look how an account acquired that gold in the first place, then it's frankly Blizzard turning a blind eye towards goldbuying.

    After all, they can read any account like an open book, they can check from where someone acquired this sort of gold and how, if someone had lots of gold in their mailbox over a period of time from questionable accounts, that's red flag, when they put up an auction for some item completely over market value and their buyer was some shady account, that's a red flag.

    At the end of the day, what is happening within WoW is completely transparent to Blizzard, it's just that anything that eludes automated detection will fly past them - and the people who have a monetary interest in selling gold naturally put in some effort to find out what those automated parameters are to avoid them.

    Take the most egregious example, something such as Gressil selling for 200k, you can't tell me with a straight that a person tasked with finding & banning players who purchased gold wouldn't find some very fishy activity on an account that acquired a sum of gold that normally takes thousands of hours to acquire.

    And honestly, when Blizzard already drops the ball on such easy to spot goldfarmers, then i have to assume that their actions against goldbuyers are very much absent.

    It's just inflation occurring, there is nobody actively enforcing these prices.
    When someone sets up an auction for tremendous prices and someone who purchased gold chooses to buy it, then that's how it is, there is no "people who bought gold can't buy it" option.

    This is not the community the "perpetuating" anything, this is basic economics.
    Blaming the community on this issue is like blaming society for fake money, except in this instance, one could at least attempt to verify whether you're given fake money.
    You just explained how the community is perpetuating it. It’s against the rules but not enforced, so it’s done more often, which creates more demand and more bots. It’s a bit of a chicken-or-egg, sure, but that doesn’t alleviate the players from their responsibility in not breaking the rules.

    4 pieces of pre-bis right now would run me close to 70k. That’s not inflation when the average 100g-200g legitimate goldmaking income would take 20 days /played to afford.

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    but that doesn’t alleviate the players from their responsibility in not breaking the rules.
    The fact that players are in no position to stop such behavior from others does however.

    Imagine if a spec existed that could straight up one shot anything in the game your response to it is:
    "Well, when players play such a completely OP spec, it's also their fault!"

    This is just shifting the blame and not even attempting to come up with a solution to solve the problem, because the only group of people that is in a position to realistically solve that issue are the people working at Blizzard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    4 pieces of pre-bis right now would run me close to 70k. That’s not inflation when the average 100g-200g legitimate goldmaking income would take 20 days /played to afford.
    Don't tell me any sob stories about this, i was in favour of a gold reset, but there some people were quite keen on keeping their 5k gold for epic flying, it seems.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-06-12 at 05:32 PM.

  17. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    You do know you're really running out of time, though, right? You have been since the day you were born. So no matter if it takes five minutes, five days, five weeks, or five months, it really doesn't matter in the long run.
    Time always matters. Once spent, it can never be recovered. Your comment is a good argument for people to consider boosts of some sort to avoid game time sinks.
    I'm a crazy taco.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The fact that players are in no position to stop such behavior from others does however.

    Imagine if a spec existed that could straight up one shot anything in the game your response to it is:
    "Well, when players play such a completely OP spec, it's also their fault!"

    This is just shifting the blame and not even attempting to come up with a solution to solve the problem, because the only group of people that is in a position to realistically solve that issue are the people working at Blizzard.
    Fortunately I’m able to differentiate the two circumstances, and like I said, neither party is free of blame. But if people are trying to say “p2w is toxic for the community and game”, I’m just looking at the game and thinking someone buying a boost to start TBC is the least of my concerns.

    Don't tell me any sob stories about this, i was in favour of a gold reset, but there some people quite keen on keeping their 5k gold for epic flying, it seems.
    Yeah, it was just one problem bleeding into a bigger version of that problem. A gold cap on transfer to TBC era would have done wonders, or a complete reset, idk.

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Fortunately I’m able to differentiate the two circumstances, and like I said, neither party is free of blame.
    The crux is that you ignore that the community is not a singular entity, some people frankly do not have a very big problem with paying real money for stuff in WoW.

    Blizzard however is in the position to act a single entity because they are a professional company and frankly, they are the ones who wrote their own ToS, it is one thing not to abide by rules set up by others, it is another to not enforce rules you set up yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    But if people are trying to say “p2w is toxic for the community and game”, I’m just looking at the game and thinking someone buying a boost to start TBC is the least of my concerns.
    I think the dynamic is still very different because the boost is officially sanctioned by Blizzard, there isn't even the possibility of ever being punished for engaging in it, whereas with buying gold, the possibility at least exists.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Pay 2 win games have existed in the past. World of Tanks used to sell gold ammo that penetrated armour and could only be bought for real money. RIFT had trinket slots for your character that could only be accessed with real money. Those are actual tangible advantages that were only accessible to people who paid for them.
    But that's not "winning". that's gaining an unfair advantage. It's still p2w but there really isn't winning there. You can't skip 58 levels of content without spending actual money so by your own definition here, WoW is p2w.

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