Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    But that's not "winning". that's gaining an unfair advantage. It's still p2w but there really isn't winning there. You can't skip 58 levels of content without spending actual money so by your own definition here, WoW is p2w.
    It's gaining an advantage another player can not receive unless they also pay additional money. If I bought a boost other players can catch up to my character and make it so you can't tell which of us bought the advantage. In a p2w game it would be obvious by one character having the paid extras.

    Now WoW does have features that are p2w but for a rather narrow definition of winning. For pet and mount collectors the fact some things have to be bought on the store means there will always be an advantage to players who put down extra cash. Arguably the existence of the token means anyone can grind any shop mount without paying extra, but then we get into the fuzzy realm where you have to look at how much time is saved by paying cash, and if the grind is too arduous for someone to be reasonably expected to complete.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It's gaining an advantage another player can not receive unless they also pay additional money. If I bought a boost other players can catch up to my character and make it so you can't tell which of us bought the advantage. In a p2w game it would be obvious by one character having the paid extras.

    Now WoW does have features that are p2w but for a rather narrow definition of winning. For pet and mount collectors the fact some things have to be bought on the store means there will always be an advantage to players who put down extra cash. Arguably the existence of the token means anyone can grind any shop mount without paying extra, but then we get into the fuzzy realm where you have to look at how much time is saved by paying cash, and if the grind is too arduous for someone to be reasonably expected to complete.
    ....There is absolutely nothing in game that lets you skip 58 levels of content without spending actual money. That, by definition, makes it p2w. Why is it that if it's any other game something like that is called p2w but it's not p2w if it's WoW?

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    ....There is absolutely nothing in game that lets you skip 58 levels of content without spending actual money. That, by definition, makes it p2w. Why is it that if it's any other game something like that is called p2w but it's not p2w if it's WoW?
    Given time you can gain 58 levels for your character. With pay-2-win mechanics no amount of time spent playing the game will give you the same advantage. Another game I play is MechWarrior online. In that game I can spend hours and hours grinding to buy a new mech, or I can whip out my cashcard and buy it with real money. I don't consider it "pay-to-win" because the money doesn't get you an unattainable advantage, it just saves time.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Given time you can gain 58 levels for your character. With pay-2-win mechanics no amount of time spent playing the game will give you the same advantage. Another game I play is MechWarrior online. In that game I can spend hours and hours grinding to buy a new mech, or I can whip out my cashcard and buy it with real money. I don't consider it "pay-to-win" because the money doesn't get you an unattainable advantage, it just saves time.
    Ok well you can say it's not p2w but you'd be wrong. If you can spend real money to gain an advantage over players NOT spending real world money, it's p2w. Period.

  5. #705
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    People are holding way too tightly to this assumption that everyone wants to completely re-experience the whole journey, or that they should have to.

    If someone knew they wanted to play TBC and wanted to experience Classic, they’d have started playing literally any time over the last 2 years.

    Despite assumptions, it’s obvious the re-releases are intended as siloed experiences. You have Classic Era, TBC Classic and I assume at some point more Classics. If the intention were a linear re-experience, they wouldn’t have separated Classic Era and TBC in such a way.
    Boosting created a huge mess a problems. Firstly it isn't fair to those who didn't pay for the boost. Secondly, even if Activision gave everyone free boosts then TBC wasn't designed to have players boosted to level 58, and there will be consequences. Leave the boosts to ShadowLands, not in TBC. You hate playing a game you love to play then I can't help you there except L2P. Play a mobile game, I hear you all have phones.

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    Boosting created a huge mess a problems. Firstly it isn't fair to those who didn't pay for the boost. Secondly, even if Activision gave everyone free boosts then TBC wasn't designed to have players boosted to level 58, and there will be consequences. Leave the boosts to ShadowLands, not in TBC. You hate playing a game you love to play then I can't help you there except L2P. Play a mobile game, I hear you all have phones.
    You feeling personally injured by other people being level 58 through the boost is a YOU problem. It’s created exactly zero problems for the community. No apocalyptic botting sprees, or sudden saturation of profession CDs. Just a bunch of Warriors/Mages switching to Hunters/Warlocks.

    Expecting Activision to not do Activision things, pretending Classic was some return to Indie Blizzard, and trying to reshape the definition of p2w is also a YOU issue.

    It’s one thing to be like “I don’t like this”, but this whole “go back to retail/another game” while you refuse to just accept that, despite its faults, it’s an enjoyable game.

    You wanna complain? Fine.

    But to take ownership of a game based on what it was like FOURTEEN YEARS and literally hundreds of employees ago is a little too “get off my lawn” to take seriously.

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    Boosting created a huge mess a problems. Firstly it isn't fair to those who didn't pay for the boost. Secondly, even if Activision gave everyone free boosts then TBC wasn't designed to have players boosted to level 58, and there will be consequences. Leave the boosts to ShadowLands, not in TBC. You hate playing a game you love to play then I can't help you there except L2P. Play a mobile game, I hear you all have phones.
    What mess? This is entirely on your head.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    You feeling personally injured by other people being level 58 through the boost is a YOU problem. It’s created exactly zero problems for the community. No apocalyptic botting sprees, or sudden saturation of profession CDs. Just a bunch of Warriors/Mages switching to Hunters/Warlocks.

    Expecting Activision to not do Activision things, pretending Classic was some return to Indie Blizzard, and trying to reshape the definition of p2w is also a YOU issue.

    It’s one thing to be like “I don’t like this”, but this whole “go back to retail/another game” while you refuse to just accept that, despite its faults, it’s an enjoyable game.

    You wanna complain? Fine.

    But to take ownership of a game based on what it was like FOURTEEN YEARS and literally hundreds of employees ago is a little too “get off my lawn” to take seriously.
    Personally I have no qualms with the one boost because it is akin to the deal we got since the WoD preorder. The pay to win element can’t be dismissed if blizzard does bring up the option to have multiple boosts per wow account. And yes I checked to see if the boost on a second wow account would “float/exist” for the entire blizz account like how boosts do for retail. Aka like for retail buy a boost for WoW2 it can be used on WoW1 through 8, however for tbcc that is not the case.

    And then as for the discussion on the other aspects of boosting. Yes there is an element of failure/lack of returns associated with getting boosts by paying other player with blizzard-blessed gold from WoWToken transactions. However with the predominance of the boosting communities seriously since gallywix’s formation and then demise (yes I know SLB and others were around before then), the degree of failure drops off pretty heavily since said boosting communities police themselves to weed out bad/poor boosters regularly even if they made the initial filter selection process. I have seen some of the dumbest stuff linked to me in discord from those channels and it astounds me how people act like that. Generally, most are being too cocky for their own good going headfirst into something they can’t handle and then ruining it for everyone.

    Biggest concern I have for boosting is how it diminishes completion points for the majority of the population. Like it would be very interesting to see how many people genuinely complete AotC, CE, duelist, elite, KSM (and with the upcoming 20s achievements) without a boost or handout from friends. Also as of now, there are 18412 characters last I checked having 2072+ io (lowest score possible for no time remaining for all 20s). When they put out that announcement there were 12119 characters having that score. So you can get the idea that we had 50% population growth.

  9. #709
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    Paying money to not play a game they payed for. Sounds stupid when put into that context.
    But they want to play TBC not Classic. Hence the point of the skipping. So that point is irrelevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    What are you winning on other P2W type games?
    An advantage that cannot be obtained through in game means. Which levelling to 58 is not.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    An advantage that cannot be obtained through in game means. Which levelling to 58 is not.
    So you would be fine with Blizzard selling Mythic and other end-game gear?

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    So you would be fine with Blizzard selling Mythic and other end-game gear?
    Why are you acting like being level 58 is end game content?

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisnumbers View Post
    Why are you acting like being level 58 is end game content?
    The post I quoted deliberately said that P2W is when you purchase something not achievable otherwise. Try to keep up, my good man.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Getting a single character to level 58 is not "winning" WoW.

    That is all.

    The "win" part is perceptual.
    It just saves you time - but it also gets you a head start.
    Imagine a whole guild doing it - they'd get to farming everything that much sooner.

    yeah it's silly, and yea it's blizzard milking the game.
    It even takes away from the whole experience you should be enjoying in the game, you skip all the content that was there to enjoy and just go straight into the endgame farming boredom.
    people that use it will likely quit that much sooner - and lower the amount of resources the server uses. Its win win for blizzard.

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    But they want to play TBC not Classic. Hence the point of the skipping. So that point is irrelevant.

    - - - Updated - - -



    An advantage that cannot be obtained through in game means. Which levelling to 58 is not.
    Tell me one thing in game that lets you skip 58 levels of content without spending real money.

  15. #715
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    So you would be fine with Blizzard selling Mythic and other end-game gear?
    If people wanted to buy it? Sure. Doesn't affect my fun in game. And People can still achieve that stuff in game without paying. Next please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Tell me one thing in game that lets you skip 58 levels of content without spending real money.
    Gold Boosts.

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    If people wanted to buy it? Sure. Doesn't affect my fun in game. And People can still achieve that stuff in game without paying.
    That's quite the opinion to have, while dismissing claims of P2W in games. Way to go, champ.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    The post I quoted deliberately said that P2W is when you purchase something not achievable otherwise. Try to keep up, my good man.
    And your example of something that can’t be achieved without RMT is raid/dungeon gear? Lol.

  18. #718
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post

    Pay to win clearly doesn't have a single definition and a lot of game developers like this because it allows them to sell more micro-transactions. Cosmetic micro-transactions obviously don't sell as well as ones that actually have tangible benefits. Just to inform you that some moderators here are actually game developers, though to what games I don't know. They clearly like to change the definition of what is P2W, but it really doesn't matter because it's what the community feels is P2W and that isn't going to change by moderating a relatively small forum. A good deal of people outside of MMO-Champion feel that paid boosts are P2W.

    Not enough for some people to quit the game because the benefit to a paid boost is limited to a certain amount of time. Once everyone is 70 and settled down then you don't have any particular advantage anymore. That still doesn't change the fact you did and will abuse it for at least a few months.

    It's not P2W when the corporation who made the game isn't the one selling it. It's a community problem and therefore not P2W. It's actually promoted by Activision not going after gold sellers. We are paying $15 a month so Activision can afford to pay someone to go after bots and gold sellers better.

    The people who made TBC are not the same people who are running the company now. You want to play your game but now some other terrible company took it over and is now trying hard to ruin it by making sort term profits. This is why 50% of players are leaving Activision/Blizzard games because they got sick of it. There's no reason for an OverWatch 2 when OverWatch one is all you need, but this is just another quick path to money that is just going to divide the community and cause more people to leave OverWatch to play other games. You know like TF2 which is older and still popular for people to play on.

    Who doesn't hate Amazon and Apple? Pretty sure they're one of the top most hated companies today.
    Well...p2w has the "definitions" that you can find by googling - but IIRC there are no definitions of it in "official" dictionaries. So yeah...we all can push the boundaries to where we want them. The addition of "It's not P2W when the corporation who made the game isn't the one selling it" to the definition is a new and "interesting" one to me. But okay...if that works for you, who am I to judge?

    Then there is your middle part with the often heard arguments that I can never sort of get to make sense. Like "It is now a greedy company, run by shareholders, that are in for a quick money grab, yet at the same time everyone is leaving. However though everyone (or half of them) left, they make Overwatch 2...for another money grab. Okay...seems long term to me? And why would any company want to deliberately make a bad product and piss ppl off, if they can make a good product and earn even more money?

    Then we have the interesting bit of "everyone hates Amazon and Apple" (and with this forum's opinions, I guess we can include Activision/Blizzard - yet the all magically keep making more and more money.

    Yeah, as much as - I hate consumers more who keep honouring them and giving them more money. Best witnessed here - where people complain ad nauseum...and still pay. Oh...I get it..we all have our little excuse. But it gets even better when these people rage against the ones who are happy with a game.

    In the end, we both pay Blizzard...but you want me to be as miserable as I am and because I am happy, you hate my attitude...but you being furious and paying is ok? (not: with "you" I don't mean literally YOU)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bbr View Post
    Imagine a whole guild doing it - they'd get to farming everything that much sooner.
    "Imagine" being the key word. Going to retail...apparently Method did that for the recent World First...you know...buying BoEs for insane amounts of gold....yet...hey...they didn't win.

    So "pay2haveachanceatwinning"? I mean when everyone can p2w - only one guy / guild really wins, right?

    And "imagine" 20 guilds on your server do it...then they all "get to farming everything that much sooner" etc etc.

    So..man...I know...it is "pay 2 make Blizzard win"

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    The post I quoted deliberately said that P2W is when you purchase something not achievable otherwise. Try to keep up, my good man.
    We all know what you're trying to do, leaping all the way from being 58 means it's ok to buy full bis. I'm way ahead of you.

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    The post I quoted deliberately said that P2W is when you purchase something not achievable otherwise. Try to keep up, my good man.
    You can achieve 58 though, you can't skip to 58 with any method I'm aware of but that's not what "not available" means lol. Not available would be I can pay to be 80 when non-paying players are stuck at 70.
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