Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #721
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    That's quite the opinion to have, while dismissing claims of P2W in games. Way to go, champ.
    I didn't dismiss games can be P2W, I said WoW isn't. Nice reading, Kiddo.

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    I didn't dismiss games can be P2W, I said WoW isn't. Nice reading, Kiddo.
    In games, WoW included. When was the last game where you were able to pay for unavailable power in a game? The industry already moved on from the early 00s.

    Nowadays is all about ridiculous grinds, a la Fifa Ultimate Team or any sort of gacha mobile game, where you either play for ridiculous countless hours or you buy your way through progression.

    Funnily enough, these mobile games were easily labeled as P2W.... but WoW can't. lol
    Get the credit card~

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisnumbers View Post
    We all know what you're trying to do, leaping all the way from being 58 means it's ok to buy full bis. I'm way ahead of you.
    Both cases it's getting something already available in-game. Get your dishonest arse outta here if you change your definitions of P2W to suit your interests.

    Paying for power, whether it is paying free levels that would otherwise take weeks to get, or paying for a piece of gear, is exactly the same concept - Buying Power with Fucking Money. The amount of power is completely irrelevant when it comes to the concept - it's either P2W or it's not.

    Now, if you want to argue that WoW is actually quite tame and reasonable than, say, Star Wars™: Galaxy of Heroes, when it comes to P2W... then I agree with you there.

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    In games, WoW included. When was the last game where you were able to pay for unavailable power in a game? The industry already moved on from the early 00s.

    Nowadays is all about ridiculous grinds, a la Fifa Ultimate Team or any sort of gacha mobile game, where you either play for ridiculous countless hours or you buy your way through progression.

    Funnily enough, these mobile games were easily labeled as P2W.... but WoW can't. lol
    Get the credit card~

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    Both cases it's getting something already available in-game. Get your dishonest arse outta here if you change your definitions of P2W to suit your interests.

    Paying for power, whether it is paying free levels that would otherwise take weeks to get, or paying for a piece of gear, is exactly the same concept - Buying Power with Fucking Money. The amount of power is completely irrelevant when it comes to the concept - it's either P2W or it's not.

    Now, if you want to argue that WoW is actually quite tame and reasonable than, say, Star Wars™: Galaxy of Heroes, when it comes to P2W... then I agree with you there.
    “Oh, you were really excited to experience TBC again? Just re-invest another 80-90 hours /played and you can experience it all over again!” is a hard sell.

    Stop acting like it’s skipping current content. If people wanted the full experience through Vanilla and into TBC, they’d have done it. Some did their time and want to play TBC.

    We’re here to play TBC, and that’s what they’ve enabled people to do. Adding drama where none is needed to force people to subscribe for multiple months before they can even play TBC is just not the experience you want it to be.

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    “Oh, you were really excited to experience TBC again? Just re-invest another 80-90 hours /played and you can experience it all over again!” is a hard sell.

    Stop acting like it’s skipping current content. If people wanted the full experience through Vanilla and into TBC, they’d have done it. Some did their time and want to play TBC.

    We’re here to play TBC, and that’s what they’ve enabled people to do. Adding drama where none is needed to force people to subscribe for multiple months before they can even play TBC is just not the experience you want it to be.
    It's irrelevant whether it's skipping old content or new. Or whether it's boosts on Classic or Retail.

  5. #725
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Get your dishonest arse outta here if you change your definitions of P2W to suit your interests.
    The irony of the guy, who has been trying to change the definition to suit his interests, saying this to literally anyone. When in the same post he changes the definition to suit his.

    You're a joke. just accept the L.

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    The irony of the guy, who has been trying to change the definition to suit his interests, saying this to literally anyone. When in the same post he changes the definition to suit his.

    You're a joke. just accept the L.
    Buying any power for money is P2W. That has been my stance since always.

    Good try.

  7. #727
    pay to win

    What exactly are you winning? You're literally ONLY saving time for something that does not contribute to the power of your character. You have no power advantage over anyone else. You're not going to beat endgame faster than anyone else(only faster than you would have on your own) because of it. Who cares? As if you even had a chance to compete if you weren't level 60 in Naxx gear before the expansion released anyway...

    Are you saying that getting a mount and level 58 in TBC, an expansion where the level cap is 70 = Winning?

    Who cares if someone pays for a boost? It takes most players months to get from 1-58, who cares if they chose to pay money to skip a meaningless month long grind? how is that affecting anything else?

    I mean I get it, everyone is mad because we have to play with these people who don't understand their class yet.... so what? Take the boost away, now they just don't play at all because who has that amount of time. Is the community that much better off without those people?

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    It's irrelevant whether it's skipping old content or new. Or whether it's boosts on Classic or Retail.
    Sure, I’ll bite.

    Why is it irrelevant? Or is this just the arbitrary rule set forth by the old guard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Buying any power for money is P2W. That has been my stance since always.

    Good try.
    Time isn’t power. If it were, casuals with 500 days played on retail wouldn’t need LFR.

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Sure, I’ll bite.

    Why is it irrelevant? Or is this just the arbitrary rule set forth by the old guard?
    Because it merely shows a gradient of several levels of how egregious or acceptable the power purchase is.

    "It's only to get you through older content faster so you can play the current expansion."
    "It's not the most powerful armor in the game."
    "There's ways to obtain multi-seaters mounts in-game, not just the store."
    "You can only purchase a 5 star character, you will have to put all the little equipments on him to actually optimize it"

    All these examples, out of the top of my head from several games, show that some cases of P2W are worse than others. But, in the end, all of them a problem of P2W.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Time isn’t power. If it were, casuals with 500 days played on retail wouldn’t need LFR.
    Time is most valuable currency being leveraged in these transactions.

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Because it merely shows a gradient of several levels of how egregious or acceptable the power purchase is.

    "It's only to get you through older content faster so you can play the current expansion."
    "It's not the most powerful armor in the game."
    "There's ways to obtain multi-seaters mounts in-game, not just the store."
    "You can only purchase a 5 star character, you will have to put all the little equipments on him to actually optimize it"

    All these examples, out of the top of my head from several games, show that some cases of P2W are worse than others. But, in the end, all of them a problem of P2W.
    Oh, the slippery slope argument.

    Should we give the shop, that’s existed for 10 years, another 10 years to prove your doompost accurate?

    Time is most valuable currency being leveraged in these transactions.
    Still not power. Keep trying?

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Oh, the slippery slope argument.

    Should we give the shop, that’s existed for 10 years, another 10 years to prove your doompost accurate?
    Wasn't talking solely about WoW store. I am sure you would have noticed it if you had actually read the post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Still not power. Keep trying?
    Player A buys boost.
    Player B doesn't buy the boost.
    They fight. Who wins?

  12. #732
    Yo... So... What's the point?
    If wow is pay to win or not, what do you achieve by proving or not your argument? Does that change anything?

    Just play the damn game, or not. That won't change anything either.

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Wasn't talking solely about WoW store. I am sure you would have noticed it if you had actually read the post.
    I read it, I just don’t know why you’d use other games’ cash shops to answer my question on relevance to skipping old content. I was giving you benefit of the doubt.

    Player A buys boost.
    Player B doesn't buy the boost.
    They fight. Who wins?
    If we’re going to make asinine comparisons, let’s compare the power of a $40 boost character vs one after 3 months of game time.

  14. #734
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Time isn’t power. If it were, casuals with 500 days played on retail wouldn’t need LFR.
    Right, but starting at lvl 58 instead of lvl 1 is power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    If we’re going to make asinine comparisons, let’s compare the power of a $40 boost character vs one after 3 months of game time.
    Its not asinine.. not even a little bit. Youre comparing the starting points of two players. One who didnt buy a boost and another who did. The one who did, bought power.

    In theory, if both players play for 3 months, at similar paces, the boosted player would still have a power advantage.
    Last edited by Eugenik; 2021-06-13 at 07:23 PM.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    I read it, I just don’t know why you’d use other games’ cash shops to answer my question on relevance to skipping old content. I was giving you benefit of the doubt.
    Because you asked a question about my statement on the irrelevancy of the gradient of the P2W aspect - so I gave examples of other games, which have stores with P2W elements which are, imo, way more toxic than WoW's.
    Some of these stores are worst, some are better but, in the end, all P2W elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    If we’re going to make asinine comparisons, let’s compare the power of $40 boost character vs one with 3 months of game time.
    No. We are comparing players on an EVEN field.
    Both players start NOW. Not a dude that has been playing for months.
    Player A buys boost and duels his friend, Player B, that didn't buy the boost. Who fucking wins? I bet it's the one that purchased power with real life money.

    And again, this stupid example is only to challenge your opinion of how a boost isn't power. It is both power and time-saving being bought with these Tokens.
    Last edited by Darkeon; 2021-06-13 at 07:25 PM.

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Because you asked if a question about the irrelevancy of the gradient of the P2W aspect - so I gave examples of other games, which have stores with P2W elements which are, imo, way more toxic than WoW's.
    I asked none of that. I asked why skipping old or current content is irrelevant.


    No. We are comparing players on an EVEN field.
    Both players start NOW. Not a dude that has been playing for months.
    Player A buys boost and duels his friend, Player B, that didn't buy the boost. Who fucking wins? I bet it's the one that purchased power with real life money.

    And again, this stupid example is only to challenge your opinion of how a boost isn't power. It is both power and time-saving being bought with these Tokens.
    $40 (boost) is what, 3 months of game time? Let’s compare the boosted 58 to the one who had 3 months to level and gear.

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    I asked none of that. I asked why skipping old or current content is irrelevant.
    And I replied why I find the argument irrelevant. Because you are purchasing levels that let you skip content, whether it is 50% of the content or 100% of the content, you are still purchasing levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    $40 (boost) is what, 3 months of game time? Let’s compare the boosted 58 to the one who had 3 months to level and gear.
    Does the Player A have to wait 3 months to start playing? That's why he wouldn't definitely win against Player B on said hypothetical duel?
    It's really not that hard of a question to answer, mate.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    And I replied why I find the argument irrelevant. Because you are purchasing levels that let you skip content, whether it is 50% of the content or 100% of the content, you are still purchasing levels.
    Except in WoW’s case, this is a re-release and it’s focused on the expansion, not the series. That’s obvious because of both their wording and the separation of servers. Otherwise they’d just have “Classic Era” and we’d be replaying the entire timeline in a linear fashion.


    Does the Player A have to wait 3 months to start playing? That's why he wouldn't definitely win against Player B on said hypothetical duel?
    It's really not that hard of a question to answer, mate.
    It apparently is, because you’re failing to see that time is money in a subscription based MMO, not power.

    When both have spent $40 and stopped playing, who has the advantage?

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Except in WoW’s case, this is a re-release and it’s focused on the expansion, not the series. That’s obvious because of both their wording and the separation of servers. Otherwise they’d just have “Classic Era” and we’d be replaying the entire timeline in a linear fashion.
    Yet there it is, allowing players to purchase level ups. Regardless of where, how strong, how fair and lenient, etc, it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    It apparently is, because you’re failing to see that time is money in a subscription based MMO, not power.

    When both have spent $40 and stopped playing, who has the advantage?
    You keep saying it's not power - yet refuse to answer the question on who wins the duel out of the two players. Curiouser and curiouser..

    And I think I gave you enough time of the day. 5 posts was more than enough to being able to answer such a simple question, but you persisted on dodging the shit out of it. lol
    Last edited by Darkeon; 2021-06-13 at 07:48 PM.

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Yet there it is, allowing players to purchase level ups. Regardless of where, how strong, how fair and lenient, etc, it is.



    You keep saying it's not power - yet refuse to answer the question on who wins the duel out of the two players. Curiouser and curiouser..

    And I think I gave you enough time of the day. 5 posts was more than enough to being able to answer such a simple Yes or No question, but you persisted on dodging the shit out of it. lol
    Yes, you’ve spent 5 posts trying to use a 58 beating a level 1 as the basis for your argument on how a game is pay to win. Time well spent.

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