Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    That is how the game was back then.

    You should adapt to the game, not the other way around.
    No one is stopping you from leveling 1-70. No one. Not a single person. Enjoy missing everyone raiding, grinding heroics and the first two tiers and you level.

  2. #762
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    So you don't bother distinguishing then? Even if someone's character is actually a lot weaker due to RNG or a lack of time to play, you consider them to be just as much pay-2-win as you would if someone had bought a character with all the top gear and a +50% damage buff that can only be bought for real cash. Even if you can out-compete another character in PvP or PvE you still consider yourself a loser because they saved a couple of dozen hours in the levelling process?
    If you can use real money to buy power for your character, it's p2w. Period. You can do mental gymnastics all you want to try and say it's not p2w but you'll be wrong every time.

  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    If you can use real money to buy power for your character, it's p2w. Period. You can do mental gymnastics all you want to try and say it's not p2w but you'll be wrong every time.
    There is an identical thread running parallel in the 'retail' general sub forum, and some are claiming that because there is an additional step between 'swiping' your card and receiving the 'power', it is NOT P2W. I dont agree with that idea, but what are your thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  4. #764
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    So you don't bother distinguishing then? Even if someone's character is actually a lot weaker due to RNG or a lack of time to play, you consider them to be just as much pay-2-win as you would if someone had bought a character with all the top gear and a +50% damage buff that can only be bought for real cash. Even if you can out-compete another character in PvP or PvE you still consider yourself a loser because they saved a couple of dozen hours in the levelling process?
    Things like RNG and lack of time is not Pay to Win. That's just a L2P moment. If you bought a character then that's against the rules and cheating. The thing about classic WoW is that there's a lot of exploits built into the game that many players abuse to move things along faster. So much so that some players laugh at the idea of a boost when there's already plenty of fast methods to level a character. You boosting will not make you a good player at 58. You're hurting other players because you think your good at playing your class when you'll soon find out that you aren't. Lots of classes have a very high learning curve that gives certain players an edge that other players wouldn't know about.
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    LOL, Moms credit card? I pulled out my own wallet I have paid my own way since I was 14. I started playing when I was 17 My time is more important than $60.00 when It takes me months to level to 58, hell Im only lvl 62.5 currently in BCC because of play time constraints.
    Thanks for clarifying.
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    There is an identical thread running parallel in the 'retail' general sub forum, and some are claiming that because there is an additional step between 'swiping' your card and receiving the 'power', it is NOT P2W. I dont agree with that idea, but what are your thoughts?
    Not sure what idiocy that is but if you're swiping a credit card then you're not doing the player base any good. Lots of developers think that if you use speed boosts then it isn't P2W, but in reality you're just rubbing against what the developer thinks is a very fine line but in reality that line was crossed long ago. I'd even argue that cosmetic micro-transactions is P2W because you're playing a game where the entire point is doing awesome stuff and getting awesome rewards that looks cool. You see a person in T3 gear you know that person did something awesome because everyone else looks like crap in the game. When was the last time you saw the game with unique class specific tier gear? How many unique armor pieces are available on the store?

    Clearly micro-transactions had a very negative effect on Activision-Blizzard since they lost 50% of their players during a pandemic where everyone is home playing video games more than ever. Not just WoW but all their games were effected. Clearly the player base isn't happy about it and you have a 39 page thread for classic this thread and a 100 page thread in the retail section. You have YouTube videos on this subject that a lot of people are clearly agreeing with. You can sit here and tell everyone who thinks character boost P2W is just in their head, but 50% of the players have already moved on and don't care what people here post. What mattes in the end is how people feel and people feel it's P2W.


  5. #765
    Pandaren Monk Nalam the Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potatowizard View Post
    No one is stopping you from leveling 1-70. No one. Not a single person. Enjoy missing everyone raiding, grinding heroics and the first two tiers and you level.
    Huh?

    1-60 was done in pre-patch and 60-70 took like what.. 4 days tops by just questing normally.

    Awsome signature and avatar made by Kuragalolz

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    Clearly micro-transactions had a very negative effect on Activision-Blizzard since they lost 50% of their players during a pandemic where everyone is home playing video games more than ever. Not just WoW but all their games were effected. Clearly the player base isn't happy about it and you have a 39 page thread for classic this thread and a 100 page thread in the retail section. You have YouTube videos on this subject that a lot of people are clearly agreeing with. You can sit here and tell everyone who thinks character boost P2W is just in their head, but 50% of the players have already moved on and don't care what people here post.
    Where is this 50% figure coming from? Blizz has dropped about 10% since Shadowlands released and Activision reported record high number of users last quarter.

    What mattes in the end is how people feel and people feel it's P2W.
    I suppose if not buying the boost makes you feel like you are losing I can't argue against your feelings, but that seems more like a you problem.

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    There is an identical thread running parallel in the 'retail' general sub forum, and some are claiming that because there is an additional step between 'swiping' your card and receiving the 'power', it is NOT P2W. I dont agree with that idea, but what are your thoughts?
    That's an utterly asinine train of thought and it's just them doing mental gymnastics to avoid saying anything negative about WoW. If it was any other game, it'd be p2w. Somehow it stops being p2w when Blizzard does it, according to some people in these forums.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Where is this 50% figure coming from? Blizz has dropped about 10% since Shadowlands released and Activision reported record high number of users last quarter.



    I suppose if not buying the boost makes you feel like you are losing I can't argue against your feelings, but that seems more like a you problem.
    The only "you problem" is on your end, dude. If you can spend real money to buy player power, it's p2w. It's really that simple.

  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    The only "you problem" is on your end, dude. If you can spend real money to buy player power, it's p2w. It's really that simple.
    I disagree though. If I level a character to 70 I don't feel like a loser just because someone with less time bought a boost and only had to level 58-70. It would be different if the other person's character had paid for extra damage or gear slots that I couldn't gain.

    But like I said there's no point in me arguing against feelings and if you feel like the playing the 1-58 experience makes you lose then that's how you feel.

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I disagree though. If I level a character to 70 I don't feel like a loser just because someone with less time bought a boost and only had to level 58-70. It would be different if the other person's character had paid for extra damage or gear slots that I couldn't gain.

    But like I said there's no point in me arguing against feelings and if you feel like the playing the 1-58 experience makes you lose then that's how you feel.
    You can disagree all you want. You would be wrong in doing so. Just because you personally don't feel like it's purchasing power doesn't mean you AREN'T purchasing power. This isn't about feelings. It's basically universal that being able to buy any form of player power is p2w.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    You can disagree all you want. You would be wrong in doing so. Just because you personally don't feel like it's purchasing power doesn't mean you AREN'T purchasing power. This isn't about feelings. It's basically universal that being able to buy any form of player power is p2w.
    It isn't though because that's a definition that lacks nuance, presumably it caught on because declaring everything to be pay-to-win is a good emotive phrase that drives YouTube clicks and people prefer simple things that appeal to their feelings over slightly more complicate and useful phrases.

    If you're buying something that lets you skip a basic but time consuming aspect of the game like levelling then you are paying for convenience. If you're buying something that enhances your character but would involve some sort of in-game challenge not everyone can overcome you're paying for power. If you're buying an advantage that no-one can gain without money regardless of their skill or time spent then you're paying to win.

    Now I get that levelling normally from 1-58 makes you feel like you're losing and I won't bother arguing against your feelings but I'm not going to accept a definition based on your feelings when my feelings disagree with it.

  11. #771
    Free shilling is also not winning in life
    That is all.

  12. #772
    and what do we gain after this discussion?
    one side gets to be grumpy while the others can stroke their epeen for being "correct"?

    let's say that we come to an answer "wow is P2W" or "wow is not P2W".

    then what?

    nothing anyone in this thread says will change MY PERSONAL OPINION on the game.
    it might change my view of the community though...

    i play the game, i interact with the different aspects of it, and i form my opinion based on my experience that will shape my like or dislike for the game.
    which, by the way, can be more than just either "wow is the best and can do no wrong" or "wow is the worst garbage in history".
    this might be shocking for some, but you are allowed to find something "kinda alright" or "meh, it could be better, but whatever".

    i mean, if you want to go around insulting people based on their opinion, go ahead. just don't expect me to take you serious.
    The above mentioned remarks, ideas and notions are simply my thought on this topic. I do not wish to aggravate, denounce or criticize anyone who, for whatever reason, may disagree.

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    You can disagree all you want. You would be wrong in doing so. Just because you personally don't feel like it's purchasing power doesn't mean you AREN'T purchasing power. This isn't about feelings. It's basically universal that being able to buy any form of player power is p2w.
    This is such a childish oversimplification of the discussion. You’ve sliced the definition of power so broadly, literally every micro transaction ever created would make a game pay-to-win.

    You keep bashing people for what you’re calling feelings, but at the end of the day, you’re just against micro-transactions, and in turn, you’re diluting the actual definition of pay-to-win.

    It’s not “basically universal”, lol. Try saying that out loud to yourself and not laughing.

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    hell Im only lvl 62.5 currently in BCC because of play time constraints.
    Going to wish you best of luck when you hit level cap, because the timesink portion won't vanish once you're capped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Potatowizard View Post
    No one is stopping you from leveling 1-70.
    Nothing stopped anyone from leveling a character in Classic way before TBC release, either.

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    This is such a childish oversimplification of the discussion. You’ve sliced the definition of power so broadly, literally every micro transaction ever created would make a game pay-to-win.

    You keep bashing people for what you’re calling feelings, but at the end of the day, you’re just against micro-transactions, and in turn, you’re diluting the actual definition of pay-to-win.

    It’s not “basically universal”, lol. Try saying that out loud to yourself and not laughing.
    You know, the very first item ever on the WoW Cash-Shop, That Retarded Horse, or the Sparkle Pony in Wrath, was heralded as having elements of P2W. (Fun-fact - when WoWhead had first data-mined the model, EVERYONE thought it would be a rare drop off of Algalon, because of the similarity in the models.)

    Why? Because mounts were not account bound back then, so Blizzard's solution was to mail you a Sparkle Pony on EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER you created from the time of the mount purchase onwards. This basicly meant that, by forking over 20 euroes to Blizzard, you would never have to spend in-game gold on buying a MOUNT (not the riding skill), because That Retarded Horse scaled with your riding skill. No need to buy a lvl 40 mount, lvl 60 epic ground mount, lvl 70 normal flying mount or lvl 70 fast flying mount - TRH covered it all

    Is this not an in-game advantage that players who bought That Retarded Horse can benefit from over people who didn't? Sure, abit of gold here and there while leveling is NOT alot, it is NOT the end of the world, but that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing if you can get tangible in-game benefits by spending real cash. You could back in WOTLK with the introduction of TRH, you certainly can now with the WoW token.

    You know what saddens me most? It's people who just accept this situation without realising that everyone suffers from it. Case in point - the Tekken series of fighting games. A few weeks ago I sat and calculated with a mate of mine, by using simple addition, that you need around 70 euroes to buy every single extra character in Tekken 7. And you gotta pay 60 euroes for the game. So a total of around 130 euroes.

    This is a stark comparison to Tekken 3 on the Playstation 1, where you started off with 8 characters. You played through the Story Mode with each character, saw the final clip of the aftermath of them winning the tournament, and unlocked a character. 8 original characters unlocked 8 bonus characters. Those 8 bonus characters also had their own story mode, which unlocked ANOTHER 8 characters, giving you a roster of 24 characters to play with. Adding to that, you had Gon, True Ogre and Dr. Boskonovitch, 3 characters who were SECRET characters and needed you to do very specific things in game in order to unlock them. Before the advent of the internet, unlocking these 3 secret chars was a feat in and of itself - lots of playground theorycrafting happened between classmates. You were extra lucky if someone from school had a subscription to the Playstation magazine and managed to get the strategies from there. Otherwise, you were on your own, with your mates, using good old trial & error tactics.

    All that is gone nowadays. Instead of rewards being an incentive for beating the game, they are now simply payed for. And that sucks.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2021-06-16 at 11:02 AM.

  16. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    You know, the very first item ever on the WoW Cash-Shop, That Retarded Horse, or the Sparkle Pony in Wrath, was heralded as having elements of P2W. (Fun-fact - when WoWhead had first data-mined the model, EVERYONE thought it would be a rare drop off of Algalon, because of the similarity in the models.)

    Why? Because mounts were not account bound back then, so Blizzard's solution was to mail you a Sparkle Pony on EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER you created from the time of the mount purchase onwards. This basicly meant that, by forking over 20 euroes to Blizzard, you would never have to spend in-game gold on buying a MOUNT (not the riding skill), because That Retarded Horse scaled with your riding skill. No need to buy a lvl 40 mount, lvl 60 epic ground mount, lvl 70 normal flying mount or lvl 70 fast flying mount - TRH covered it all

    Is this not an in-game advantage that players who bought That Retarded Horse can benefit from over people who didn't? Sure, abit of gold here and there while leveling is NOT alot, it is NOT the end of the world, but that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing if you can get tangible in-game benefits by spending real cash. You could back in WOTLK with the introduction of TRH, you certainly can now with the WoW token.
    That’s just validating my point. I don’t know where we went wrong where we classify not having to spend 9g on a mount - which is less than one quest at max level - in the same category as traditional pay-to-win items like special ammo/weapons/armor.

    It’s the same thing. The outrage for Steed was more “I don’t like the shop”, and “p2w” was just a provocative and convenient thing to add fuel to the discussion.

    I’m not saying there’s no advantage and that these aren’t pay-for-time-saved services. I’m challenging the part where people correlate that to winning.
    Last edited by Prag; 2021-06-16 at 11:08 AM.

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    That’s just validating my point. I don’t know where we went wrong where we classify not having to spend 9g on a mount - which is less than one quest at max level - in the same category as traditional pay-to-win items like special ammo/weapons/armor.

    It’s the same thing. The outrage for Steed was more “I don’t like the shop”, and “p2w” was just a provocative and convenient thing to add fuel to the discussion.

    I’m not saying there’s no advantage and that these aren’t pay-for-time-saved services. I’m challenging the part where people correlate that to winning.
    Read the rest about Tekken...cause that's EXACTLY the path WoW has gone down. Now you can pretty much buy anything you want in World of Warcraft with real money. Simply because it has more steps in the process doesn't mean it does not exist. Tell me this, what's the difference between:

    1) Pay 200 euro for Gladiator rankings/title/mount from the cash shop.
    2) Pay 200 euro for 10 tokens, sell the tokens, make 2,000,000 gold, find the best arena players on the server, give them this same 2,000,000 gold that you payed for with your 200 euroes, and have THEM take you to Gladiator rankings/title/mount.

    Simply because there's a middle man, the players boosting, it suddenly makes it NOT P2W? Sure, it's not custom armours that aren't obtainable in-game, but it IS giving out the top rewards that only 0.5% of the playerbase should be getting.

    Small edit: Keystone Master costs 1.2 million gold on my server. At 20 euroes per token for 200k gold per token, you need 120 euroes to buy Keystone Master, along with the soon-to-be-removed Feat of Strength + mount that are associated with KSM.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2021-06-16 at 11:33 AM.

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Read the rest about Tekken...cause that's EXACTLY the path WoW has gone down. Now you can pretty much buy anything you want in World of Warcraft with real money. Simply because it has more steps in the process doesn't mean it does not exist. Tell me this, what's the difference between:

    1) Pay 200 euro for Gladiator rankings/title/mount from the cash shop.
    2) Pay 200 euro for 10 tokens, sell the tokens, make 2,000,000 gold, find the best arena players on the server, give them this same 2,000,000 gold that you payed for with your 200 euroes, and have THEM take you to Gladiator rankings/title/mount.

    Simply because there's a middle man, the players boosting, it suddenly makes it NOT P2W? Sure, it's not custom armours that aren't obtainable in-game, but it IS giving out the top rewards that only 0.5% of the playerbase should be getting.

    Small edit: Keystone Master costs 1.2 million gold on my server. At 20 euroes per token for 200k gold per token, you need 120 euroes to buy Keystone Master, along with the soon-to-be-removed Feat of Strength + mount that are associated with KSM.
    Sorry, this is focused on Classic and the boost. I’d agree that the token is closer to p2w than the boost, but I think the rhetoric in this thread is volatile enough, so I’ll leave it at that.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Sorry, this is focused on Classic and the boost. I’d agree that the token is closer to p2w than the boost, but I think the rhetoric in this thread is volatile enough, so I’ll leave it at that.
    Now you're just being dishonest mate. I gave you a simple question, with clear definitions. Have the cojones to answer.

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Now you're just being dishonest mate. I gave you a simple question, with clear definitions. Have the cojones to answer.
    How is a retail shop item relevant to the discussion and why do you think courage is required to answer it? I didn’t answer it because it wasn’t relevant, and I answered it in the context of retail, where it IS relevant.

    You can’t buy “anything” in Classic. You can buy a boost.

    You can’t transfer tokens to gold to PvP titles because you can’t buy tokens.

    Nothing you said pertains to Classic and if you could even cobble together a point, it’d be “retail is p2w so Classic is too”, or even worse, some slippery slope shit.

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