Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #861
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    What are you winning with a boost? The term has lost all meaning at this point.
    It has lost meaning for two reasons:

    1) People tunneling in on the word "win" and making an incorrect assumption that the phrase EVER required a "win", when in fact it is and always has required an ADVANTAGE.

    2) There are two trains of thought regarding what is an isnt P2W, and this was a recent discovery for me. Apparently, in Asia, and in particular in Korea, the term P2W is commonly accepted to NOT include time advantages such as boosts and boosted XP. This could be common in other parts outside of Asia as well, but im not sure.

    The 3rd somewhat unrelated issue is people assuming that anyone who says "I consider this feature to be P2W" to also be saying "P2W is bad" which is absolutely not the case for many, MANY people. And lastly, as companies zig-zag around laws as they evolve and change, so to do their monetization schemes. As such, the definition of a P2W feature is ever changing, constantly shifting. For example, loot boxes CAN be considered P2W, depending on their implementation, however, if you had asked someone in 2002 if they considered loot boxes P2W, they would have replied "a loot box? wtf is a loot box?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  2. #862
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    What are you winning with a boost? The term has lost all meaning at this point.
    Another person hung up on the word "win". If you require you to win something, then p2w just doesn't exist by that logic. But it's p2w because you're paying real money for character power. Period. So boosts are p2w.

  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Another person hung up on the word "win". If you require you to win something, then p2w just doesn't exist by that logic. But it's p2w because you're paying real money for character power. Period. So boosts are p2w.
    At this point, when I see someone going on about "winning" in these discussions, I just instantly put them in the "flat Earther" camp and move on. I think some lean on it so heavily because they think its their "gotcha!" moment, and they don't really have any other points to raise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  4. #864
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Another person hung up on the word "win". If you require you to win something, then p2w just doesn't exist by that logic. But it's p2w because you're paying real money for character power. Period. So boosts are p2w.
    Actually it does. The term Pay2Win is literally because in many games you could pay Money to have character Power beyond what you could get in the game. If you can achieve it in game it isn't Pay2Win. You can achieve level 58 in game easily.

    Here's an example. A game I played years ago called Zenonia. You could buy Outfits for your characters for real Money. These Outfits not just changed your cosmetic look they also gave huge bonuses to character Attributes. People that didn't buy them were at least 30% weaker. In a straight up PvP fight between 2 People of the exact same Skill and Level, the Person with the PAID FOR item, would automatically win due to having a straight up power advantage due to paying for it.

    That is literally the definition of Pay2Win. Any other definition People like to use is headcanon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    At this point, when I see someone going on about "winning" in these discussions, I just instantly put them in the "flat Earther" camp and move on. I think some lean on it so heavily because they think its their "gotcha!" moment, and they don't really have any other points to raise.
    Ironic you'd say People that understand the easy concept of boosts not being Pay2Win are the Flat Earther types and not the ones that think being lvl 58 in a game which has a max level of 70 is P2W.

    Though the Dunning-Kruger Effect is a thing I guess.

  5. #865
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    At this point, when I see someone going on about "winning" in these discussions, I just instantly put them in the "flat Earther" camp and move on. I think some lean on it so heavily because they think its their "gotcha!" moment, and they don't really have any other points to raise.
    It's a semantic argument through and through. I argued with a poster I normally agree with for a dozen pages over the barometer used to determine exactly what is or isn't a win. I stand by my assertion that it isn't Pay2Win so much as it's Pay2BLazy but I doubt anybody interested in this discussion at this point is particlarly inclined to challenge their preconceived notions and would rather wallow in self serving smugness over their opinion being more correct than somebody else's.

  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Actually it does. The term Pay2Win is literally because in many games you could pay Money to have character Power beyond what you could get in the game. If you can achieve it in game it isn't Pay2Win. You can achieve level 58 in game easily.
    Link me any source where this definition is used. Since you make it clear this is the literal definition of the term, that must come from a reliable source, right? Because all the definitions I have found from a variety of sources do NOT line up with what you are saying. In simple language they all boil down to gaining an advantage over others that either cannot be obtained in game (almost unheard of these days) OR one that would require substantial time without the payment. The reason for the inclusion of the second part is that it encompasses the overwhelming majority of P2W scenarios, buying power unobtainable through normal play is extremely niche and very, very rare.

    Literally the only people arguing about the definition are the ones desperately trying to prove buying 58 levels in classic, is NOT P2W. Everyone else accepts the common definition, one that can easily be googled.

    You say level 58 can be obtained "easily" through normal game-play - what do you think is a fair estimate at the playtime required, through normal play, for the average player? And if it is so "easy", why is this even an issue? I mean if its as easy as you say, surely no one would have paid so much money to skip those 58 levels, right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's a semantic argument through and through. I argued with a poster I normally agree with for a dozen pages over the barometer used to determine exactly what is or isn't a win. I stand by my assertion that it isn't Pay2Win so much as it's Pay2BLazy but I doubt anybody interested in this discussion at this point is particlarly inclined to challenge their preconceived notions and would rather wallow in self serving smugness over their opinion being more correct than somebody else's.
    So you have no opinion on what constitutes P2W?
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-28 at 06:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  7. #867
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Actually it does. The term Pay2Win is literally because in many games you could pay Money to have character Power beyond what you could get in the game. If you can achieve it in game it isn't Pay2Win. You can achieve level 58 in game easily.

    Here's an example. A game I played years ago called Zenonia. You could buy Outfits for your characters for real Money. These Outfits not just changed your cosmetic look they also gave huge bonuses to character Attributes. People that didn't buy them were at least 30% weaker. In a straight up PvP fight between 2 People of the exact same Skill and Level, the Person with the PAID FOR item, would automatically win due to having a straight up power advantage due to paying for it.

    That is literally the definition of Pay2Win. Any other definition People like to use is headcanon.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ironic you'd say People that understand the easy concept of boosts not being Pay2Win are the Flat Earther types and not the ones that think being lvl 58 in a game which has a max level of 70 is P2W.

    Though the Dunning-Kruger Effect is a thing I guess.
    That's utterly asinine. Once again, by that logic, p2w doesn't exist. It's pretty much universally accepted that using real money to buy ANY form of character power is p2w. You're just doing mental gymnastics to avoid saying anything negative about WoW.

  8. #868
    Paying to gain something that is otherwise inaccessible in the game is literally unheard of these days. You have to go as far back as the days of Silkroad Online to even find games like that. Or the days of Aeria games.

    For any OGs here that remember Allods online. At some point they introduced a system called runes. You had 3 offensive runes and 3 defensive runes. Each rune could get up to I think lvl 10? (my memory slightly fails me). Each rune level gave you several % of offensive and defensive stat multiplications. A character with lvl 10 runes vs a character with lvl 1 runes were at a MASSIVE power difference (like more than double the power). Runes were upgraded by combining them with a dust currency that you could buy in the cash shop costing several thousand euros/dollars to get all of them to lvl 10. However you could also grind in game and turn your currency to cash shop currency to upgrade the runes through grinding. A procedure that had been calculated to take over a year of daily grinding to achieve.
    So in a lot of posters opinion here this system would not be p2w because getting runes to lvl 10 in that game could be done through in game grinding despite you possibly getting pummeled by lvl 10 rune players for an entire year +.

  9. #869
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Paying to gain something that is otherwise inaccessible in the game is literally unheard of these days. You have to go as far back as the days of Silkroad Online to even find games like that. Or the days of Aeria games.

    For any OGs here that remember Allods online. At some point they introduced a system called runes. You had 3 offensive runes and 3 defensive runes. Each rune could get up to I think lvl 10? (my memory slightly fails me). Each rune level gave you several % of offensive and defensive stat multiplications. A character with lvl 10 runes vs a character with lvl 1 runes were at a MASSIVE power difference (like more than double the power). Runes were upgraded by combining them with a dust currency that you could buy in the cash shop costing several thousand euros/dollars to get all of them to lvl 10. However you could also grind in game and turn your currency to cash shop currency to upgrade the runes through grinding. A procedure that had been calculated to take over a year of daily grinding to achieve.
    So in a lot of posters opinion here this system would not be p2w because getting runes to lvl 10 in that game could be done through in game grinding despite you possibly getting pummeled by lvl 10 rune players for an entire year +.
    I played ENTIRELY too much SRO(Silkroad Online) and this is why I laugh at people when they say WoW is pay to win. Boy, you don't even know. Imagine cash shop items when you get 20% more dmg done for an hour. Or cash shop items where you can augment your weapon to literally just do 20% more damage because of Alchemy mods.... IN ADDITION to the 20% dmg scrolls. At one point i was known as "the best non premium nuker on the server" and I had to constantly fight people that spent 100$+/mo on the "free" game.

    WoW being P2W is hilarious.

    MMOs START at level cap....how you get there...idgaf. Boost, level yourself, whatever. No one cares about leveling.
    Last edited by SmokesTooMuch; 2021-06-28 at 07:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaerys View Post
    Gaze upon the field in which I grow my fucks, and see that it is barren.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Those are the fields where the challenging and engaging raid mechanics for Classic are grown. See that they lay barren.

  10. #870
    Quote Originally Posted by SmokesTooMuch View Post
    I played ENTIRELY too much SRO(Silkroad Online) and this is why I laugh at people when they say WoW is pay to win. Boy, you don't even know. Imagine cash shop items when you get 20% more dmg done for an hour. Or cash shop items where you can augment your weapon to literally just do 20% more damage because of Alchemy mods.... IN ADDITION to the 20% dmg scrolls. At one point i was known as "the best non premium nuker on the server" and I had to constantly fight people that spent 100$+/mo on the "free" game.

    WoW being P2W is hilarious.

    MMOs START at level cap....how you get there...idgaf. Boost, level yourself, whatever. No one cares about leveling.
    "WoW isn't as hardcore as pay2win as other games so therefore it's not pay2win." That's literally your logic.

  11. #871
    Quote Originally Posted by SmokesTooMuch View Post
    I played ENTIRELY too much SRO(Silkroad Online) and this is why I laugh at people when they say WoW is pay to win. Boy, you don't even know. Imagine cash shop items when you get 20% more dmg done for an hour. Or cash shop items where you can augment your weapon to literally just do 20% more damage because of Alchemy mods.... IN ADDITION to the 20% dmg scrolls. At one point i was known as "the best non premium nuker on the server" and I had to constantly fight people that spent 100$+/mo on the "free" game.

    WoW being P2W is hilarious.

    MMOs START at level cap....how you get there...idgaf. Boost, level yourself, whatever. No one cares about leveling.
    I think you misunderstood my post. I also played silkroad and allods online. Both disgustingly p2w games. The fact that we have evolved from shameless p2w (silkroad) to mask p2w behind in game grind (allods where it takes a year+ of daily grind to achieve the power lvl of a whale) to less shameful p2w (buying gold in WoW) does not make WoW not pay to win.
    There are degrees of p2w but again for all the OGs here there was a time when people were saying that if WoW ever allowed race changes it would be p2w. Low and behold its a standard practice now that no one bats an eye about. I m on the verge with boosts but gold buying is 100% p2w for me like what the WoW token does in retail. For classic version of the game, boosts are arguably p2w as well. These are zoomer mechanics that do not belong in MMOs.
    If you do not like doing staple classic MMORPG things like leveling a character then why do you play this genre in the first place? Theres literally nothing wrong with not liking it and there are soooooo many games that do other things infinitely better.

  12. #872
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That's utterly asinine. Once again, by that logic, p2w doesn't exist. It's pretty much universally accepted that using real money to buy ANY form of character power is p2w. You're just doing mental gymnastics to avoid saying anything negative about WoW.
    The fact this argument is still going shows it is not universally accepted. In a way you're right though, pay-2-win largely doesn't exist anymore. There was a backlash against games giving a solid advantage to players who paid extra and developers stopped doing it. The days where you can buy superior ammo for your tank or extra item slots for your character. In other words gamers won and p2w is dead.

    Instead now devs sell convenience items and services because the majority of players don't care if someone with limited play time gets a leg up on the basic part of the game. You don't have to like it if you don't want, but there is no point performing mental gymnastics to call it "pay-2-win" just because you like the emotional ties to its original meaning. Well, not unless you're a YouTuber after outrage clicks.

  13. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Actually it does. The term Pay2Win is literally because in many games you could pay Money to have character Power beyond what you could get in the game. If you can achieve it in game it isn't Pay2Win. You can achieve level 58 in game easily.
    So Blizzard could start selling mythic raid loot in the cash shop and it still wouldn't be P2W by your logic?
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  14. #874
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    So Blizzard could start selling mythic raid loot in the cash shop and it still wouldn't be P2W by your logic?
    Strictly speaking no because you wouldn't be buying something that normal players couldn't get, much like character buying back I'm Vanilla and TBC it's more of a weird situation where you're paying to not play. You could make an argument that the loot is out of reach for most players and that would make it virtually p2w.

    That said if you bought Mythic loot to do the Mythic content you would be starting with a definite advantage over non-paying players so you could call this hypothetical a solid p2w situation if you wanted.

  15. #875
    45 pages in and people still can't comprehend that this game isn't P2W.

  16. #876
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Strictly speaking no because you wouldn't be buying something that normal players couldn't get, much like character buying back I'm Vanilla and TBC it's more of a weird situation where you're paying to not play. You could make an argument that the loot is out of reach for most players and that would make it virtually p2w.

    That said if you bought Mythic loot to do the Mythic content you would be starting with a definite advantage over non-paying players so you could call this hypothetical a solid p2w situation if you wanted.
    You're answer is quite mixed. I guess it proves that everyone has a different definition of the P2W acronym. I try to simplify the subject by allocating any advantage that can be bought for IRL money as P2W.

    I know it comes in various forms and degrees, getting a 58 is not that big of a deal but it is a lot of time saved which alone is valuable in an MMO setting. The fact that it's limited to one per account is a good compromise IMO and am not seeing any problems the current boost brings to the game.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  17. #877
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    You're answer is quite mixed. I guess it proves that everyone has a different definition of the P2W acronym. I try to simplify the subject by allocating any advantage that can be bought for IRL money as P2W.

    I know it comes in various forms and degrees, getting a 58 is not that big of a deal but it is a lot of time saved which alone is valuable in an MMO setting. The fact that it's limited to one per account is a good compromise IMO and am not seeing any problems the current boost brings to the game.
    I would agree with his sentiment, though, at least in the sense that I separate out:

    “P2W” = literally buying items/characters unavailable in-game that provide an inherent advantage when all else is equal. eg A boosted 58 and a leveled 58.

    “Shitty microtransactions” = too lazy to address content that is not engaging overall and/or not addressing them because the MTX revenue stream makes the suits happy.

    WoW is 100% more the latter, but the token sort of muddies it imo.

    One is not inherently worse than the other, just a different poison. The “p2w” connotation to me implies a stronger value proposition than “saves you some time and let’s you play current content”.

  18. #878
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    One is not inherently worse than the other, just a different poison. The “p2w” connotation to me implies a stronger value proposition than “saves you some time and let’s you play current content”.
    If you read the official forums or similar sites, people are saying it takes a "casual" around 10 days /played to get to 60. At 10 hours a week thats nearly 6 months. Even at 20 hours per week, the equiv of a part time job, its 3 months. This was in classic though, not TBC, so obviously you need to take the TBC changes into account, reducing those time. "saves you some time" is a bit of an understatement, although still accurate i guess.

    I know plenty of people who intended to level to 58 during the prepatch, and only got to level 40 or similar. Given how long 50-58 is, they were only half way if they were lucky. I just keep coming back to the same thing - those claiming the boost isnt a big deal and you can "easily" level to 58 in game meaning the boost is a non issue, why are we having this discussion then? Why did so many people pay Blizzard to bypass those 58 levels, unless they felt it was acceptable value for money?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  19. #879
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    If you read the official forums or similar sites, people are saying it takes a "casual" around 10 days /played to get to 60. At 10 hours a week thats nearly 6 months. Even at 20 hours per week, the equiv of a part time job, its 3 months. This was in classic though, not TBC, so obviously you need to take the TBC changes into account, reducing those time. "saves you some time" is a bit of an understatement, although still accurate i guess.

    I know plenty of people who intended to level to 58 during the prepatch, and only got to level 40 or similar. Given how long 50-58 is, they were only half way if they were lucky. I just keep coming back to the same thing - those claiming the boost isnt a big deal and you can "easily" level to 58 in game meaning the boost is a non issue, why are we having this discussion then? Why did so many people pay Blizzard to bypass those 58 levels, unless they felt it was acceptable value for money?
    I’m not intending to devalue it or make it seem insignificant, but if that time you’re paying to skip is a true obstacle, they’ll struggle just as much (or more) in TBC. I have more than 10 days played at 70 and I still have a mountain of stuff to do because a lot of that time is just T4 and farming consumes.

    Like the other poster said, it’s semantics. To me, p2w is a death sentence, where this type of continuous MTX is just death by a thousand cuts.

    They’re both bad for the game and a sign that they’re out of ideas.

  20. #880
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    I’m not intending to devalue it or make it seem insignificant, but if that time you’re paying to skip is a true obstacle, they’ll struggle just as much (or more) in TBC. I have more than 10 days played at 70 and I still have a mountain of stuff to do because a lot of that time is just T4 and farming consumes.

    Like the other poster said, it’s semantics. To me, p2w is a death sentence, where this type of continuous MTX is just death by a thousand cuts.

    They’re both bad for the game and a sign that they’re out of ideas.
    Ironic - A clever person can easily see that if it is a quick drop and a sudden stop, or death by 1000 cuts, either way you die in the end and both were in fact a death sentence. If you have played 240 hours at 70, yes TWO HUNDRED AND FOURTY HOURS, and still have a mountain of things to do, then you have wasted most of those 240 hours.

    so in 28 days, you have leveld from 60 to 70, and put in 240+ hours at 70.......in 28 days........Just think this through people - that means close to one half of the available hours of your life in the last 28 days have been spent sitting at your computer playing wow. 7 days a week. ......thats you spending OVER 70 hours per week playing wow. You do you man, its your life, but no wonder you dont think it is significant when you are spending 70+ hours per week playing the game. Many country have labour laws that should you be getting paid to play, this would be illegal because it far exceeds their maximum work hours / week.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-28 at 09:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

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