Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #881
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    It objectively is pay to win.

    That is all.
    No, it's really not. TBC content starts at 58. For people coming in just to play the TBC content, this is great for them, because they don't have to level a toon through vanilla. Maybe they didn't want to play vanilla but wanted just to do Outland? It's a 14 year old game. There are no world-firsts. There's nothing there except nostalgia.

  2. #882
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    No, it's really not. TBC content starts at 58. For people coming in just to play the TBC content, this is great for them, because they don't have to level a toon through vanilla. Maybe they didn't want to play vanilla but wanted just to do Outland? It's a 14 year old game. There are no world-firsts. There's nothing there except nostalgia.
    Just to be clear, P2W is always "great" for those who pay for it...that's kind of the point. I only see a couple of people legitimately trying to claim the boost isnt a good thing. I do see a lot of people saying "its a good system, but it is clearly P2W"
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  3. #883
    After playing this game since the beginning, I'm still trying to figure out how to "win" World of Warcraft....

  4. #884
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Ironic - A clever person can easily see that if it is a quick drop and a sudden stop, or death by 1000 cuts, either way you die in the end and both were in fact a death sentence. If you have played 240 hours at 70, yes TWO HUNDRED AND FOURTY HOURS, and still have a mountain of things to do, then you have wasted most of those 240 hours.

    so in 28 days, you have leveld from 60 to 70, and put in 240+ hours at 70.......in 28 days........Just think this through people - that means close to one half of the available hours of your life in the last 28 days have been spent sitting at your computer playing wow. 7 days a week. ......thats you spending OVER 70 hours per week playing wow. You do you man, its your life, but no wonder you dont think it is significant when you are spending 70+ hours per week playing the game. Many country have labour laws that should you be getting paid to play, this would be illegal because it far exceeds their maximum work hours / week.
    There’s a clear difference between the two, but you were too excited to make ignorant personal attacks about how I spend my time in game (the real irony) to think it through.

    None of that time was wasted. A lot of it was spent with friends in groups or raids, but the solo time is just farming shit so I can sell at peak (now) and not worry about it for a while.

  5. #885
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    There’s a clear difference between the two, but you were too excited to make ignorant personal attacks about how I spend my time in game (the real irony) to think it through.

    None of that time was wasted. A lot of it was spent with friends in groups or raids, but the solo time is just farming shit so I can sell at peak (now) and not worry about it for a while.
    The point im making is that you MUST understand that someone spending 70+ hours PER WEEK as you are playing wow is an extreme - and leagues away from an average player. This perspective you have, spending close to double what many do with a full time job just playing wow, shapes your perspective in regards to what is an isnt an advantage?

    And no, the end result is the same, so there is no difference at all in this context. To be fair though, i dont really understand what you are trying to say with this analogy anyway.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-28 at 09:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  6. #886
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The point im making is that you MUST understand that someone spending 70+ hours PER WEEK as you are playing wow is an extreme - and leagues away from an average player. This perspective you have, spending close to double what many do with a full time job just playing wow, shapes your perspective in regards to what is an isnt an advantage?

    And no, the end result is the same, so there is no difference at all in this context. To be fair though, i dont really understand what you are trying to say with this analogy anyway.
    No, it doesn’t really change my perspective because it was the same opinion I held/posted before launch. I averaged 80 hours a week at work for 15 months through the pandemic, and they gave me a massive chunk of paid time off, which I chose to use some of for the launch. Normally I’m a 10-20 hour/week player.

    The analogy is in reference to an immediate death vs a slow bleed.

  7. #887
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    No, it doesn’t really change my perspective because it was the same opinion I held/posted before launch. I averaged 80 hours a week at work for 15 months through the pandemic, and they gave me a massive chunk of paid time off, which I chose to use some of for the launch. Normally I’m a 10-20 hour/week player.

    The analogy is in reference to an immediate death vs a slow bleed.
    So what im trying to clarify, is this: You have suggested a game with obvious MTX, but MTX that is lots of little MTX that you know will still kill the game but it might take some time, is NOT the same as egregious MTX that you suggest would kill a game immediately?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  8. #888
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So what im trying to clarify, is this: You have suggested a game with obvious MTX, but MTX that is lots of little MTX that you know will still kill the game but it might take some time, is NOT the same as egregious MTX that you suggest would kill a game immediately?
    If only we had examples to look at. Maybe a game that offered something unique and powerful (and unattainable in game) that caused a mass exodus, compared to a game that slowly introduced a few “niceties” and saw steady attrition over… let’s say 10 years.

  9. #889
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    If only we had examples to look at. Maybe a game that offered something unique and powerful (and unattainable in game) that caused a mass exodus, compared to a game that slowly introduced a few “niceties” and saw steady attrition over… let’s say 10 years.
    Sure, all you need to prove is that this "exodus" was CAUSED by the P2W structure of the game, and that the second game suffered no losses or players not touching it because of its P2W structure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  10. #890
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    45 pages in and people still can't comprehend that this game isn't P2W.
    Back when I played Destiny 2 people were saying its purely cosmetic store is pw2. So I'm not surprised.

  11. #891
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I do see a lot of people saying "its a good system, but it is clearly P2W"
    And every single one of those people are wrong. The boost gives immediate content access but nothing else of immediate value. It does not provide "extra player power" or "special unobtainable gear" or whatever.

    Some people want to play only the outland content for this specific game. This is not "winning". P2W would be the ability to purchase attunements on the cash shop, not a barely-able to quest in the intro zone character.

  12. #892
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    P2W would be the ability to purchase attunements on the cash shop
    What does a hypothetical "attunement skip" on the cashshop do?
    Saves time and gives access to content.

    What does a character boost do?
    Saves time and gives access to content.

    Consider reaching 58 as the attunement for questing in Outland (which it actually is), then what?
    You can't even step through the Dark Portal unless you're 58, which is oddly similiar to how Attunements in TBC work.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-06-29 at 02:14 PM.

  13. #893
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    And every single one of those people are wrong. The boost gives immediate content access but nothing else of immediate value. It does not provide "extra player power" or "special unobtainable gear" or whatever.

    Some people want to play only the outland content for this specific game. This is not "winning". P2W would be the ability to purchase attunements on the cash shop, not a barely-able to quest in the intro zone character.
    So in your mind, being able to buy an unobtainable item from a cash shop suddenly fits the definition of winning? What are you winning?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    What does a hypothetical "attunement skip" on the cashshop do?
    Saves time and gives access to content.

    What does a character boost do?
    Saves time and gives access to content.

    Consider reaching 58 as the attunement for questing in Outland (which it actually is), then what?
    You can't even step through the Dark Portal unless you're 58, which is oddly similiar to how Attunements in TBC work.
    this guy aced it.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  14. #894
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    And every single one of those people are wrong. The boost gives immediate content access but nothing else of immediate value. It does not provide "extra player power" or "special unobtainable gear" or whatever.

    Some people want to play only the outland content for this specific game. This is not "winning". P2W would be the ability to purchase attunements on the cash shop, not a barely-able to quest in the intro zone character.
    Oh dear. Dear oh dear oh dear........purchasing an attunement would be p2w, but skipping 58 levels is not? Let's break those down, shall we?

    Purchasing an attunement gives you no immediate power, and simply allows you to save time.

    Purchasing 58 levels actually DOES grant you immediate power compared to someone who did not purchase it (if you are not 100% sure, duel a lvl 58 on your lvl 1 and see who wins) but you randomly introduce two obscure definitions out of nowhere. "Extra player power" and "special unobtainable gear"? Huh? Why are you just randomly making stuff up? But more importantly, why do you then IMMEDIATELY prove yourself wrong by saying "buying an attunement, now THAT is p2w" even though it grants no "extra player power" or "special unobtainable gear".

    What a shambles. And I should point out a few other points. A boosted 58 absolutely STOMPS intro quests in outland and is in full questing gear by lvl 59 anyway. It literally takes 1-2 hours to burn through 58-60, and although the gear is crap, it doesn't matter at all. Next, nothing about p2w says you need to purchase a win - but rather an advantage. This is very well established, and can easily be looked up.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-29 at 06:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  15. #895
    I am astonished this thread is still alive.

    With boost you win about 150 hours of /played BEFORE the relevant content begins.

    It is a sort of “win” for sure, the magnitude of the “win” varies depending on people. Someone thinks it’s irrelevant (given also its “once in a lifetime and for one char only and not for belves/draenei chars” usage) someone feels it’s huge, there’s not much to do to make the two factions converge.

  16. #896
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    So in your mind, being able to buy an unobtainable item from a cash shop suddenly fits the definition of winning? What are you winning?

    - - - Updated - - -



    this guy aced it.
    When I see, "Pay to Win" I think more along the lines of a special ability or weapon or something.

    If I was, "King of WoW" for a day, I would take away level boosting for cash.

    But I would add account wide everything.

    Account wide currency, reputation, attunements, achievements... everything except trade skills and quests. Heck, I'd even have account wide bank boxes.
    Last edited by pahbi; 2021-06-29 at 07:15 PM.

  17. #897
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I am astonished this thread is still alive.

    With boost you win about 150 hours of /played BEFORE the relevant content begins.

    It is a sort of “win” for sure, the magnitude of the “win” varies depending on people. Someone thinks it’s irrelevant (given also its “once in a lifetime and for one char only and not for belves/draenei chars” usage) someone feels it’s huge, there’s not much to do to make the two factions converge.
    An earthquake is an earthquake regardless of magnitude.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  18. #898
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    And every single one of those people are wrong. The boost gives immediate content access but nothing else of immediate value. It does not provide "extra player power" or "special unobtainable gear" or whatever.

    Some people want to play only the outland content for this specific game. This is not "winning". P2W would be the ability to purchase attunements on the cash shop, not a barely-able to quest in the intro zone character.
    Yeah you dropped the ball with your attunement comparison.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I am astonished this thread is still alive.

    With boost you win about 150 hours of /played BEFORE the relevant content begins.

    It is a sort of “win” for sure, the magnitude of the “win” varies depending on people. Someone thinks it’s irrelevant (given also its “once in a lifetime and for one char only and not for belves/draenei chars” usage) someone feels it’s huge, there’s not much to do to make the two factions converge.
    150 hours is quite valuable IMO. Can't speak for everyone.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  19. #899
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    An earthquake is an earthquake regardless of magnitude.
    It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning - Dominic Toretto

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    150 hours is quite valuable IMO. Can't speak for everyone.
    You dont need to speak for everyone - they are speaking for themselves, by paying for the boost.

    This is the confusing part of the argument. "Its not P2W because its really easy to level from 1 - 58" ok then why did so many people pay Blizzard a decent amount of coin for the boost? I say decent amount because I have zero stats regarding who did or did not pay for the boost, but i did play in the pre-patch, and was there at launch. I played with the boosted toons, I witnessed the extensive use of the boost first hand. And lets be clear - if this boost was not popular, this discussion would have lasted 1 page.

    I am not sure how long it would take these days for the AVERAGE player to get from 1-58, but I suspect 150-200 hours is fair. Some are faster, some are slower - some spend time keeping their proffs up to date, some dont. Some play with friends, some dont. I know the OLD vanilla estimate was 10days played from 1-60, which would be 240 hours, so with xp nerfs and slightly better quest flow, i think 150-200 is fair. Now lets say these average players are putting in 15 hours per week - thats 10-13 weeks. Two and a half - three MONTHS.

    As someone who I think represents the middle of the pack as far as leveling goes - I used questie but nothing else, played vanilla and classic, no boosted dungeons or anything like that (something a fresh lvl 1 wouldnt have access to), i got my alt to lvl 41 around pre-patch time. Thats roughly half way, being quite generous, and i had nearly a week off over that time due to being unwell, so on those days I played a LOT more than usual. I think it would have taken me roughly 8-10 weeks to get to 58/60.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-29 at 08:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  20. #900
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning - Dominic Toretto
    Look at us agreeing
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

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