"Pay to win"

[arkanon]

Leveling 1-58 is not TBC, it’s just vanilla; in the same way, leveling 1-68 is vanilla and TBC in Wrath.

A boot gives access to do the TBC content, not skip the relevant TBC content.

But whatever.

Oh dear, not again.........That is entirely irrelevant, as you still have to level from 1-58 to begin your TBC Classic experience.

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Oh, back then it would not be much, nowadays for me 150 hours in game = 4 months in real life. I’m not interested in replaying TBC Classic, but if I was and had no chars at 60, for me it would be surely a win, at least time wise.

BUT I can also understand people that associates winning with clear current content/endgame advantages over the others (player power or gold, mostly) and it’s just fine that for them this type of boost is not a win by any meaning.

In the end, as i said before, it entirely relies on everyone’s concept of winning.

Truth is, what qualifies as a "win" is subjective when looking at a game overall, so that is why the definitions speak of gaining an ADVANTAGE, not of "winning". Some examples - Person A completes mario bros 2 - he has won. Person B completes mario bros in a world record time - he has won. Person C completes it using some obscure controller - she has won. Person D completes it without using any glitches - They have won. Person E Completes it with 100% - He has won. This is why definitions like this use ADVANTAGE rather than WIN - because it accounts for the subjective nature of gaming and entertainment. Using wow, a pvper would have an entirely different definition of "winning" - maybe its glad, or the highest ranking. A PvEr might consider it clearing the raid on mythic, or they might consider it getting World First.

[Prag]

You are having a lot of trouble understanding. Let's try something you might be more familiar with.

In Candy Crush you have limited lives. When you play a game you use a life. That's OK. You regain a life after a time period. What happens when you run out of lives but you still want to play? You purchase an item to let you continue playing. A timeskip if you will. Candy Crush is P2W as you can purchase timeskips. Now this is the tricky part. What are you doing when you purchase a boost in WoW? You are ..... Thats it. You are using a timeskip. That makes WoW.... Right again. That makes WoW P2W.

WE GOT THERE!

My favorite part is where you applied zero critical thought to the comparison, but felt like wrapping it in arrogant condescension somehow made it more apt.

You’re comparing slot machines to RPGs and claiming “look, I insert money, they’re the same!”.

[arkanon]

My favorite part is where you applied zero critical thought to the comparison, but felt like wrapping it in arrogant condescension somehow made it more apt.

You’re comparing slot machines to RPGs and claiming “look, I insert money, they’re the same!”.

You mean like this?

P2W would be the ability to purchase attunements on the cash shop, not a barely-able to quest in the intro zone character.

Im also not sure why you think candy crush is a "slot machine"? To be fair I have never played CC, but I thought it was a "match the colours" sort of game? To me they are simply comparing P2W in one game, with P2W in another game.....the genre of the game doesnt really factor in.

[Daymanmb]

My favorite part is where you applied zero critical thought to the comparison, but felt like wrapping it in arrogant condescension somehow made it more apt.

You’re comparing slot machines to RPGs and claiming “look, I insert money, they’re the same!”.

No, hes comparing a P2W element from one game, to another P2W element from another game.

[Jinpachi]

That's a pretty low bar, you know?

"Fuck you, you're not paying my bills, i am allowed to insult you!".

Problem with that? Nobody tells me how to speak.

[Vrinara]

Everytime I see a thread titled "Pay to win" I legit roll my eyes. I feel like the word is getting over used.

[TheRevenantHero]

I really want people in this thread to show me where I can go in game to instantly go from level 1 to 58 without paying real money.

[Kralljin]

Problem with that? Nobody tells me how to speak.

Do you go around and insult everybody because "they don't pay your bill"?

[Dhrizzle]

I really want people in this thread to show me where I can go in game to instantly go from level 1 to 58 without paying real money.

Not instantly but it's really easy to do with minimal challenge. If you have a bit of spare time or even if you started playing when Classic was Vanilla-only it's a really simple thing to achieve, so you can feel like a "winner" really easily!

[anon5123]

I feel like the word is getting over used.

my point exactly

[Steelangel]

You are having a lot of trouble understanding. Let's try something you might be more familiar with.

In Candy Crush you have limited lives. When you play a game you use a life. That's OK. You regain a life after a time period. What happens when you run out of lives but you still want to play? You purchase an item to let you continue playing. A timeskip if you will. Candy Crush is P2W as you can purchase timeskips. Now this is the tricky part. What are you doing when you purchase a boost in WoW? You are ..... Thats it. You are using a timeskip. That makes WoW.... Right again. That makes WoW P2W.

WE GOT THERE!

The Candy Crush "purchase to keep playing" is a subscription via microtransaction. Next?

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Yeah you dropped the ball with your attunement comparison.

Attunement is part of the TBC experience. Leveling to 58 is not part of that experience; that's the vanilla experience.

If I want to experience just the TBC content, then purchasing a boost to that content is not "pay to win". If I could buy a level 58 boost in Vanilla it would be.

There's a layer of nuance here that lots of folks don't get because they just want to say "lol blizz p2w smol indie compani" or whatever. I mean Blizzard has 99 problems, but pay to win is not one of them.

[Aydinx2]

You’re absolutely clueless. YES dude ANY micro transactions are bad. How far you have fallen to defend this shit. ITS BLATANT CAPITALIST GREED JESUS CHRIST WHY DO U DEFEND THE NORMALIZATION OF THIS SHIT?

So you're fine with a monthly fee on top of the $50 pricetag for a new expansion, but the 1-time purchase to save 2 weeks of play time is when they went too far?

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You are having a lot of trouble understanding. Let's try something you might be more familiar with.

In Candy Crush you have limited lives. When you play a game you use a life. That's OK. You regain a life after a time period. What happens when you run out of lives but you still want to play? You purchase an item to let you continue playing. A timeskip if you will. Candy Crush is P2W as you can purchase timeskips. Now this is the tricky part. What are you doing when you purchase a boost in WoW? You are ..... Thats it. You are using a timeskip. That makes WoW.... Right again. That makes WoW P2W.

WE GOT THERE!

How is "continue playing" the same as "winning"? What competetive edge do you have over NPC's or real other players by continuing to play?
A timeskip is not "pay to win".

[Kralljin]

Attunement is part of the TBC experience. Leveling to 58 is not part of that experience; that's the vanilla experience.

Then why doesn't everyone get a free boost?
If TBC is *just* about the "TBC experience", then the fact that every character starts at 1 makes no sense.

There's a layer of nuance here that lots of folks don't get because they just want to say "lol blizz p2w smol indie compani" or whatever. I mean Blizzard has 99 problems, but pay to win is not one of them.

There is no nuance, some people use the poor arguments of a multi billion company to defend said company without even thinking about them.

This whole argument about the "TBC experience" is a line drawn in the sand without any inkling of reason, because every character starts at one, even in TBC.
This isn't just how it was "Back in the day", that's how it is in 2021 if you're unwilling to give Blizzard any more money.

Brushing aside a 100h+ hour advantage is pure insanity, especially for those players that keep lamenting how little time they have.

[Aydinx2]

Then why doesn't everyone get a free boost?
If TBC is *just* about the "TBC experience", then the fact that every character starts at 1 makes no sense.

Fair point, but that's not what the discussion is about. We're talking about whether starting at 58 lets you "win".

This whole argument about the "TBC experience" is a line drawn in the sand without any inkling of reason, because every character starts at one, even in TBC.

No, in TBC you start at 58, which is when you can go into TBC. The fact that there's a clear level requirement and purchased content requirement proves pretty clearly that it's divided. Any content that you can access without paying for the expansion is not a part of TBC.

They say "hey you don't have TBC so you can't go in" when you try to walk through the portal. That's kind of a big hint.

Brushing aside a 100h+ hour advantage is pure insanity

The only "advantage" you could get from that is making gold. And you don't need epics purchased from the AH to "win" Kara.
I didn't boost my shaman and I don't feel like I've "lost" to anyone who boosted to 58 and went straight into TBC.

[Delever]

Fair point, but that's not what the discussion is about. We're talking about whether starting at 58 lets you "win".




The only "advantage" you could get from that is making gold. And you don't need epics purchased from the AH to "win" Kara.
I didn't boost my shaman and I don't feel like I've "lost" to anyone who boosted to 58 and went straight into TBC.

Congratulations on using your feelings to dispute facts. If I start a horde toon at lvl 1 and youboost an Alliance toon to 58 at the same day and after I leave my starter zone you come to the pvp zones to repeatedly pummel my ass to oblivion with your 58 purchased levels when me and you should have been on equal footing if you had not swiped your credit card, then that looks pretty p2w to me. Otherwise give a boost to everyone no?
And yes it could have been another lvl 58 character that did not boost and came to pummel my ass but he achieved the 58 lvls while you boosted and specifically me and you should have been on equal ground.

[strangerdanger]

I'm of the mindset that most games can be p2w and there's nothing wrong with that. Capitalism at work.

Why do you care if you spent hours farming something and someone else payed money to get it. How does that affect you? You made that choice.

[panda040]

It honestly blows my mind how many people here insist that the game is not pay to win, when I can pull out my credit card, buy 10 million gold in game. I can then take that gold and use it to buy tons of BoE item drops from raids at the beginning of a patch to increase my characters power.

I can pull out my credit card, buy 10 million gold in game and then trade that gold to players to carry my character through very high mythic keys to obtain better gear and mythic io score, even if i don't have the skill/time to actually do so.

I can pull out my credit card and buy millions of gold and give that gold to players to carry me through high end raids and obtain gear/mounts/achievements I may have been unable to obtain on my own, whether that be due to time constraints or plain lack of skill on my part.

I can pull out my credit card, and buy millions of gold, and trade that to very geared/skilled PvP'ers and have them carry me to high ratings in arena, to obtain titles, rating, PvP gear and for all intent and purposes look like im good at PvP when I'm actually shit.

Need I go on? Come on people, it's so pay to win you have to be willfully ignoring it or actively participating in it to not see this.

The only caveat that would make this acceptable, is if i earned that gold through my actions in game. And then took that gold and paid players to carry me. Then that is ok, you earned it.

It's the fact that I can open the in game shop and buy gold directly with real life money. That makes WoW pay to win. I don't care, I will still play it, but it is definitely, definitely pay to win.

[Kralljin]

The only "advantage" you could get from that is making gold. And you don't need epics purchased from the AH to "win" Kara.

So?
If Blizzard sold Glaives on the shop, what do you "win" there?
You don't need Glaives to clear any content in TBC, either.

Also, being able to farm PvP gear sooner is surely an advantage.
Especially in TBC, as you effectively lose Arena points for every week you are not playing.

And the lack of a soft gear reset each patch / season, it's actually a not too insignificant disadvantage when you lose 4-6 weeks (depending on your playtime) on Arena points.

Not even mentioning that people that have better gear have an easier time getting into pugs as time progresses.

I didn't boost my shaman and I don't feel like I've "lost" to anyone who boosted to 58 and went straight into TBC.

Some people aren't bothered when others can buy gold on the shop.
Some people also aren't bothered when others buy power upgrades in a game.

What someone (does not) bother in this context is irrelevant.

[Daymanmb]

How is "continue playing" the same as "winning"?

Oh wow, we cant even agree that candy crush is P2W..

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I didn't boost my shaman and I don't feel like I've "lost" to anyone who boosted to 58 and went straight into TBC.

What you "feel" is inconsequential to the argument. Sometimes you dont feel earthquakes below 3.5 magnitude. Does that mean they dont happen, if you dont feel it?

[Relapses]

So you have no opinion on what constitutes P2W?

I stated my opinion on this subject a few times but here it is again in its purest, most undiluted form:

• The tenuous relationship players have with cash shops in this game means the topic of P2W will always be a topic of discussion for this community
• Personally, I'm of the staunch opinion that as long as direct player power (ie, gear) is not obtainable through the store it is not, by definition, Pay2Win
• All arguments that try to say that level boosts are an indirect form of P2W are inherently flawed because of aforementioned point; it's Pay2BeLazy far more than it's Pay2Win
• Because the weight one puts on the "leveling experience" in WoW is a largely personal one, the inevitable semantic argument of what constitutes "winning" in WoW is essentially all these threads boil down to

I'm not a tremendously huge fan of semantic arguments on internet forums so I do my best to steer clear when I can. It is entertaining to see the level of mental gymnastics people will put themselves through to prove they're on the "right" side of this discussion but ultimately isn't a very constructive use of time.