"Pay to win"

[Fisher557]

You are thinking this is so black and white but it isnt. Many people, myself included, would argue unless the service provides a power advantage or rate that can only be earned by using the service its not pay to win cause there is no advantage over the existing players. IE getting 2 raid lock outs per week or gear that is stronger that existing gear but only obtainable via these transactions

Also water isnt wet so pretty weak closing, it makes things wet. (this is a joke btw cause its more nuance which this entire topic is about. Wasn't going to mention this but hey its mmoc so who knows)

I get all those things from having two accounts as well as buying a race change. Trust me, I’d stay out of this one.

This conversation started with him stating ANY advantage no matter how small is always pay to win because it’s “in the definition”, I told him it wasn’t but he tried to act so smart saying “it’s in the definition, if it gives you any advantage at all it’s pay to win”.

So I told him the sub can be pay to win because having two accounts gives you an advantage when it comes to other things, race changes can give you an advantage, and faction change can too.

He freaked out and is now ‘explaining’ why none of these things are really advantages which is funny because if he thinks he can talk his way around advantages, like he is trying right now, I can 100% do the same thing with the boosts


Edit: also your example of what you would define as pay to win doesn’t define a boost idk if your trying to say boosting is pay to win or not but your definition says you believe it isn’t.
- - - Updated - - -

As others are trying to explain to you, your scenario is not P2W. You are now modifying my argument by saying you can only achieve similar results by paying someone else - even though I provided two examples where no payment is made. I have run hundreds of dungeons with friends and no payment was made.

Additionally, I hope the irony of your closing statements is not lost on you - water is not wet.

You also continue to ignore some issues with your plan - such as the 5/hour 30/24hour limits - meaning your system cannot be run "infinitely" as you claimed earlier. I bring this up again now, because it is one of the many holes in your argument that just don't add up.

“As others have explained to you”

Others have explained that nothing I’m saying is pay to win which makes me correct anyway. Did you forget I’m calling these other things pay to win based off YOUR definition? Fuck you are dumb lol.

You hav run dungeons with friends and no payment was made? Funny because I’ve been 58 a million times and no payment was made. So we agree then neither are pay to win now.

See how your dumb arguments are always coming back to bite you in the ass? I can only imagine how hard your life is if this is how you think lol.

Like I said man I can go either direction with this. Do you want them to both be pay to win or neither of them. You are making my arguments for both FOR me so it’s not that hard lol.

You also continue to ignore some issues with your plan - such as the 5/hour 30/24hour limits - meaning your system cannot be run "infinitely" as you claimed earlier. I bring this up again now, because it is one of the many holes in your argument that just don't add up.

Oh yeah silly me well when the dungeons get locked out we just aoe farm duh.

Dude it doesn’t take a fucking rocket scientist to see how dual boxing two accounts gives you advantages. Idk even know why you’re arguing against this. You know what I’m saying is true so you know how easy it’s going to be for me to prove you wrong so why are you even trying lol.

[ztkraptor]

Uh, I didn't say that I barely play any games, I said I barely play my classic console games. I've been gaming for 30+ years now and I'm not going to stop until I'm dead.

In any case, I'm exactly the target player for TBC: Someone who played it and loved it and has intense nostalgia for it. I want to do heroic 5-mans. I want to lead and tank my group through Karazhan. I want to wipe until my raid figures out spacing on Gruul and channel rotation on Magtheridon. I want to push through SSC and TK and actually have a chance at defeating Vashj and Kael without them being bugged and broken. I want to do ZA bear runs. Hell, I want to do the Netherdrake quest chain. I want to kill the Sunwell bosses that we never finished.

What I don't want to do is slog through the Vanilla content that I've hated ever since TBC launched. Leveling my first alt through that garbage was torture. I never want to touch Vanilla content again and I'd happily pay for a level 58 boost to achieve that. Also, stop gatekeeping -- Video games are for everyone. If Johnny Casual wants to play, he gets to play. Level boosts make the game more accessible for everyone. Or, what, do you want TBC classic to empty out just as fast as Vanilla Classic did?

Johnny Casual has Retail.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

They were (again) saying and marketing it as "choice" and "if some players want to jump straight into burning crusade..." but still slapping a hefty price to do so. It is odd to me that skipping the start of a game isnt considered as helping me to win but skipping the tail end for its rewards is. If they really wanted to give you choice it would be free.

Them recognizing that there are parts of the game that a lot of people dont want to play and rather allowing rushing to the "good bits" seems quite contrary to the idea of bringing back something classic. The idea of paying to not play also feels very backwards.

[Belloc]

Johnny Casual has Retail.

So do you.

Guess what, kiddo? There were casuals back in TBC. There are casuals in Classic. There will always be casuals because, surprise surprise, they're the bulk of the playerbase and the reason that you're still able to enjoy WoW. Without them, this game would've stopped being profitable long ago and would've died.

Get used to casuals. They're a far more important to the longevity of WoW than you are.

- - - Updated - - -

They were (again) saying and marketing it as "choice" and "if some players want to jump straight into burning crusade..." but still slapping a hefty price to do so. It is odd to me that skipping the start of a game isnt considered as helping me to win but skipping the tail end for its rewards is. If they really wanted to give you choice it would be free.

Them recognizing that there are parts of the game that a lot of people dont want to play and rather allowing rushing to the "good bits" seems quite contrary to the idea of bringing back something classic. The idea of paying to not play also feels very backwards.

Think of it like this: You're not skipping the start of the game, you're skipping the start of the last game. 1-60 is Vanilla, 60-70 is TBC.

[Seranthor]

You're giving Blizzard irl money to get an advantage over a player who decides to level from scratch. There's nothing more to it, it's literal p2w. If you like it, good for you but don't act like this isn't the case.

It's not even about p2w. They said that any changes added to the game were supposed to be in spirit of what old wow is and a boost is as far away as possible from the "spirit of classic". Even if it was free, it's supposed to be an MMORPG, you build your character from the beginning and up, you don't start from the freaking middle. Blizzard just can't help themselves from utterly ruining and perverting any sort of immersion or dignity that the game may have.

Kevin Jordan, One of the OG vanilla/tbc/wotlk devs literally started laughing and facepalming as soon as they started talking about it.

So, what are you and all the others claiming 'P2W', going to do about it? Most are going to do nothing other than complain and keep throwing their currency at Blizzard, a few might unsub and walk away, but far too few to have any effect.

[Kyanion]

Wait, so you mean back in vanilla people didn't know about tbc and jewelcrafting? And they didn't hoard gold way ahead of time?

My point was gold making back then was far different. And we knew jc was coming as my guild at the time had mats ready to go to level it. Now that it is known what will happen AND people have far more gold now the little guy will be squeezed out even more.

[Nyxblow]

Meh....

You don't win by leveling your characters. Depending on your interests, you win by:
- Defeating raid bosses
- Defeating teams in arena and battlegrounds
- (In rare cases) gathering gold through various ways and becoming more wealthy in game

And that's about it. One boost per account is not going to change anyone's ability to win. For the rare people focused on gold making, they will have alts for professions either way, boost or no boost.

[ztkraptor]

So do you.

Guess what, kiddo? There were casuals back in TBC. There are casuals in Classic. There will always be casuals because, surprise surprise, they're the bulk of the playerbase and the reason that you're still able to enjoy WoW. Without them, this game would've stopped being profitable long ago and would've died.

Get used to casuals. They're a far more important to the longevity of WoW than you are.

Wrong, and classic shows that.
You sure are confident in your wrong opinions and it cracks me up. Such an arrogant person you must be.
THere were casuals in TBC sure, and they were the people who would stop their sub..come back later play for a month and stop their sub again.
That isn't who TBC classic is built for. You know it, and you don't want to admit it.
Go play the carnival retail game where you follow the script and don't have any real options, just a lot of mini games to play with no fulfillment.

[Kralljin]

Guess what, kiddo? There were casuals back in TBC. There are casuals in Classic.

Even back in 07 & 08, casual players *somehow* managed to level their characters.

[kranur]

My point was gold making back then was far different. And we knew jc was coming as my guild at the time had mats ready to go to level it. Now that it is known what will happen AND people have far more gold now the little guy will be squeezed out even more.

That is just not true, unless the little guy refuses to adapt. Say for example gems have absurd prices becase ppl that start with a lot of gold buy everything, the little guy can roll JC/mining himself and make absurd profit. This is a bad example of course as too many will be rolling JC and prices will likely be super low.

[valax]

I don't think it will really touch the boost market..at worst will flood the seller market assuming a bunch of classic players who didn't have a mage might use it to boost a mage for the sake of boosting other people..add in the fact it only works once and not on Blood Elves/Dranaei and your going to see a bunch of folks still buying boosts from mages...hell add in the fact those 60 mages will then become 70 mages that are able to just destroy old content faster than the 60 ones and probably a market to boost people from 58-70 and if anything it might just lower the price of a boost a bit but still going to be used.

AOE cap on blizzard might make that harder , anyway , I was referring to his gold selling pockets... click on that username his bio is literally a gold selling site.
Edit: his post is not even shown anymore, guess he's banned already.

[Lolites]

Wrong, and classic shows that.

wait, how does classic prove that casuals arent bulk of playerbase?
its not like there is any content in vanila that isnt for casuals...

btw calling him arrogant and then pretend YOUR OPINION is fact while his is incorrect is the peak of irony

[Thage]

Getting a single character to level 58 is not "winning" WoW.

That is all.

I don't like the boost because it runs counter to the stated philosophy behind the Classic servers, but only allowing one per account is something I can live with.

[Kralljin]

btw calling him arrogant and then pretend YOUR OPINION is fact while his is incorrect is the peak of irony

I don't know, going on the Classic forum, proudly saying that the game (=Classic TBC) should cater towards casuals, (despite it being a pretty popular opinion among fans of the older iterations that the modern game caters too hard towards casuals) because you want the game more catered towards yourself (despite it being in obvious conflict how the game used to be) may or may not be arrogant, but most certainly selfish.

TBC does not have the development cost of Retail, it does not need to cater towards *everybody* to justify its funding.
It can do without the people for which the whole "I need to level a character through Classic content" is a deathblow.

For clarification, i am against boosting, but i am overall pleased how Blizzard rolls out TBC, so i am more falling into the "you can't win every battle" category, but let's not pretend that the boosting goes against the spirit of the original game, this is not an opinion, that's just a fact.

[erifwodahs]

Wrong, and classic shows that.
You sure are confident in your wrong opinions and it cracks me up. Such an arrogant person you must be.
THere were casuals in TBC sure, and they were the people who would stop their sub..come back later play for a month and stop their sub again.
That isn't who TBC classic is built for. You know it, and you don't want to admit it.
Go play the carnival retail game where you follow the script and don't have any real options, just a lot of mini games to play with no fulfillment.

lol dude. Are you classic hardcore? I mean it's ok to be playing classic, but do you have to shit on retail? You come out ignorant af.
If you think that casuals were stopping their subs because TBC was hardcore then it's lol. WoW pop was growing really fast in TBC and most of people I know were casuals who played every day of TBC.

You dare to call someone arrogant and then dare to pretend to know who TBC classic is build for? I mean you have to see irony here. It's painful to read it overall.
Also retail hardcores would kick your "hardcore" classic ass anyway, you know it, so you play the game were being hardcore means getting WBs and not actually being good.

[ShinyInfidel]

It's been pay to win since token introduction to retail and paid realm transfers to both retail and classic.

If you think otherwise you're delusional. These two services open up so much options that can't be overthrown by any means regardless of how hardcore you are.

Example: I played on 5 accounts during classic launch and accumulated a hefty amount of gold and resources, but I was still behind bots and AH manipulators. With transfers opening up entire realms were getting wrecked, you could literally snatch 200 lotuses for XXXX amount of gold => transfer with it to a busy realm and make XXXXXX gold off that.

Not even mentioning retail. Amounts of transactions happening there can't be tracked anymore. Did you hear of the recent dupe method, where you send gold / TCG pets and mounts to the banned account that isn't bound to b-net (=real old)? I know a person IRL that made 2 billion gold off it. He still didn't sell everything, because he literally has characters stuffed with those items and he aint risking getting banned, because he's a smart guy, selling it slowly and diversifying the accounts he sells from. He can play for free, get store mounts for free, purchase expansions for free. Really nice isn't it?

This game's been f***ed up since like 2012 and there's no return. There are thousands of shared scarab lords, hundreds of thousands boosted in X or Y aspect accounts and more. New gamebreaking stuff is getting through even more often these days than before. If you pay close attention to it - you can exploit it to your hearts content with literally no punishment.

[Kyanion]

It's been pay to win since token introduction to retail and paid realm transfers to both retail and classic.

You mean those paid realm transfers that were a thing in Vanilla in 2006?

[Fisher557]

You mean those paid realm transfers that were a thing in Vanilla in 2006?

Yeah some people take the pay to win definition so deep that seriously anything and everything you could possibly pay for is pay to win. Race changes/faction changes/server transfers/etc. I personally believe once you start calling everything pay to win it sort of waters down the whole saying so it’s hard to take them serious. But that’s just me.

Like when wotlk comes out and racials change if I pay for a race change to get a better racial I GUESS you could see it as pay to win lol. I personally like to keep phrases like this for things that actually effect or hurt a game. Like how some ‘servers’ let you pay to get a shadowmourne in tbc. That to me is without a question pay to win. But server transfers? Come on guys lol.

[TheFirstOnes]

I feel like people here forget what free to play actually means.

[Azsune]

You do know you need to pay to play the game. If you do not pay you cannot play which means you cannot win. So the game is pay to win.