"Pay to win"

[Lolites]

was not sold by blizzard <------------------

and yes those accounts were banned in waves, not all of them, but the ones that got caught, i know i had guildees who got banned for purchasing a leveling service, they got caught most likely cuz that leveling service used botting programs.

sure it was not sold by blizzard, BUT it was sold for real life money (or for gold which was then sold for rl money) and gave advantage, so it was p2w...

yeah, they had issue with botting, phishing, shady websites, shite that could be harmful to their customers, not boosting or gold seling in itself

[Kithelle]

Idk. Skipping 100+ hours at least of gameplay feels like pay to win to me.

But it really isn't...pay to win is about getting a unnatural advantage over others who don't want to or can't afford to buy it themselves. All they're doing is saving time...they're not getting some unnatural advantage over other players. Boosted characters aren't going to be 10% more powerful than unboosted ones.

[Goat7]

And you paid for that same advantage with the mage, are you not? The only difference is in the currency. So if I paid with USD its boosting, but if I paid with Euro it's not? The only thing you are saving is time. Time. Wooooo big win there against your fellow players. Also WoW isn't even a competitive game, outside of pvp and arena. And those things have absolutely nothing to do with the boost what so ever. Again, what are you "winning" that can be considered valuable in-game? Nothing but those crappy greens

You are wrong because you view winning only as If i go into a competitive game and pay to beat the other team and i win then thats winning and pay 2 win. Winning can also be viewed in different ways. So for example, if i pay 2 boost a character from 1-58, well getting a "ding" for me and others is considered winning, i beat that level, so i beat 57 levels by boosting, i won 57 times and i payed for it, paying 2 win.

[kail]

And you paid for that same advantage with the mage, are you not?

Person paying the mage is doing so with gold he/she earned through various means of already playing the game. It keeps the economy ingame. Nothing IRL money related plays a part.

The only difference is in the currency. So if I paid with USD its boosting, but if I paid with Euro it's not?

It doesn't matter what IRL currency you use.

The only thing you are saving is time. Time. Wooooo big win there against your fellow players. Also WoW isn't even a competitive game, outside of pvp and arena. And those things have absolutely nothing to do with the boost what so ever. Again, what are you "winning" that can be considered valuable in-game? Nothing but those crappy greens.

At the end of the day, it's all about time. Time is valuable in an MMO (or at least it should be). Time spent playing the game reward the player either levels towards max, gold, gear, materials, faction rep, etc. Allowing any of those to be available for IRL allows one to bypass time which is objectively an advantage. Would it be so different if they put gold behind a paywall? Reputation points? Materials that one would normally kill mobs for? It all boils down to paying to skip the time req. That is a clear advantage.

Having said all that, I'm actually not against the boost as it is. You probably assumed I was, frankly, I'd prob pay the $40 to get a shaman to 58 then spend 80+ hours. It's still important not to ignore what the boost is which is a P2W feature. The boost doesn't immediately lead to a "win" but as you mentioned earlier, it allows you to get an advantage other others that didn't pay for one. And comparing paying some booster in game gold to RL money is again a terrible comparison.

[kail]

Yeah if you're naive you can think that if you want.

I don't deny there are gold selling activities in classic WoW, but that is outside of the argument.

[AeneasBK]

btw, calling someone "Retard" bcs they have different opinion on something shows nicely what you are

sure, people who start now have neither, BUT then people who started long time ago and get it paid for sub so they technicaly are ahead bcs they PAID... doesnt that make it p2w by your definition? they paid and get advantage - time to play ahead of people starting now...

See you complain about people calling others retards and then post this. Shows what you are

[Lolites]

See you complain about people calling others retards and then post this. Shows what you are

if you want to be consistent, then people who will use their vanila char in TBC instead of starting completely from start are using p2w, by HIS OWN definition - they have advantage, that they paid for...

i know, it doesnt support your narrative so you disagree, but bending your own definitions to fit what you want is beyond stupid... then again, some people prefer to use mental gymnasticsrather than logic and consistency...

[AeneasBK]

if you want to be consistent, then people who will use their vanila char in TBC instead of starting completely from start are using p2w, by HIS OWN definition - they have advantage, that they paid for...

i know, it doesnt support your narrative so you disagree, but bending your own definitions to fit what you want is beyond stupid... then again, some people prefer to use mental gymnasticsrather than logic and consistency...

Suggest people have all paid to win because they chose a game requiring a sub and played it...... Talks about the "other" people doing mental gymnastics.

Fucking kekw. You should get paid for this.

Next up - "You paid box price for the game, Nyahaa!"

[caervek]

I honestly don't get why people are actually complaining about the ability to start TBC classic at L58 lol.

Back in the day nobody started TBC at L1 we pretty much all started at L60, and a LOT of people are going to want an authentic TBC Classic experience without having to play WoW Classic, thus a boost to L58 (should have been L60 IMO) is mandatory for a proper TBC experience.

I can understand a lot of Vanilla purists thinking that people should play Classic WoW to get to TBC Classic, but here's the thing, TBC was significantly more popular than Vanilla WoW, this means there are going to be a LOT of players who are interested in TBC Classic who had zero interest in WoW Classic. If Blizzard had gatekeepered TBC Classic from a large portion (if not the majority) of the potential playerbase that would have been flat out retarded.

[Soon-TM]

I love these kinds of replies. They make me quite happy. This person hates the capitalist greed that microtransactions supposedly represent ... but is typing to a forum, using the internet, from a phone or a computer, which only exists because of guess what... capitalism......

I always laugh at these know-it-alls who conflate technology with capitalism. If we were in the 18th century, it would be like a monarchist telling to a revoutionary "but the food you eat was sown, harvested and prepared by feudal serfs!!11!!1one"

Hint: technology has accompanied mankind for much, MUCH, MUCH longer than capitalism. Mankind was already developing technology well before capitalism was ever a thing. Try to get your facts straight next time.

[Lolites]

Suggest people have all paid to win because they chose a game requiring a sub and played it...... Talks about the "other" people doing mental gymnastics.
"

no its simple use of logic, if you use brain you might realise that you dont have to pay a single cent for sub, you can earn it ingame (via token)...
so you can either farm gold for hours and weeks, OR you can avoid that chore and use your wallet... so by HIS definition, its p2w, its advantage (saved time) gained by paying...

bcs how is it different from a boost? you dont want to spend hours farming gold/leveling, so you pay real money to skip it and get what you want without work, if one is p2w in his definition the other must be too...

[Piesor]

I do not care about the fact that you can boost too much from a "pay-to-win" perspective. Those players have to level through TBC anyway and have a harder time than other players since they have less gear. It just looks worse right now since we are still in the prepatch with lvl60 cap.

What's more annoying: players get another incentive to reroll to a S-Tier class. The BGs are filled with Hunters and SL-Locks in greens and R13 spaulders. And when T6 content hits the servers most of those peoples will reroll to Rogue / Warrior to get their glaives. Hunter has always been my main and will also be my first lvl70 char. However I am already considering rolling a priest or shaman for raiding since I don't want the lootdrama with 4-8 hunters in a 25 man raid.

[swdan]

who cares about boost while you can level fresh character in a week or two
that also works on horde pala nad aly shama

[Clbull]

WoW Tokens and Blizzard's overall lack of shits given towards boosting communities have done a lot more to make WoW "pay to win" than a once-only level 58 character boost purchase has.

Currently in WoW the only viable way to achieve Curve or KSM is to purchase boosts. It is damn near impossible to pug your way to the top because your lack of achievements and gear will get you rejected from every group you try to join. Boosting and elitism has created a literal catch-22 scenario.

If Blizzard truly care about the integrity of their game, it's not the multiboxers they should be going after, it's the boosting communities. Especially when loads of them are now accepting real world money in some shape or form as part of their business model, in direct violation of the game's EULA.

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I do not care about the fact that you can boost too much from a "pay-to-win" perspective. Those players have to level through TBC anyway and have a harder time than other players since they have less gear. It just looks worse right now since we are still in the prepatch with lvl60 cap.

What's more annoying: players get another incentive to reroll to a S-Tier class. The BGs are filled with Hunters and SL-Locks in greens and R13 spaulders. And when T6 content hits the servers most of those peoples will reroll to Rogue / Warrior to get their glaives. Hunter has always been my main and will also be my first lvl70 char. However I am already considering rolling a priest or shaman for raiding since I don't want the lootdrama with 4-8 hunters in a 25 man raid.

As somebody who played Hunter throughout BC and Wrath, I'd encourage you not to play the class. Hunters do not get good until Cataclysm at the very earliest.

In PvP you're gimped by the dead zone which can easily be manipulated by mages, warriors and rogues in 1v1 duels for a quick defeat. Hunters are the only ranged class with a minimum attack range.

As for PvE, good luck getting a raid spot. You may be offered one if you're willing to go on bitch-duty and play Survival to stack Expose Weakness. Otherwise, more than one BM Hunter in a 10-man or two in a 25-man raid is seen as a liability. Especially when you'll be ordered to dismiss your pet or get /gkicked by idiot guild leaders retaining their Vanilla "pets are bad" mentality who don't understand that your pet will be doing much of the damage.

[sam86]

the ods of you getting a bis item was in the ballpark of 0.01%,but ofc the ah was filled with those items,that someone could just buy with $$$$

the chance of getting BiS for my protadin during Legion nighthold raid was if i raided non-stop for 4 years average, i calculated it myself, and it is why it killed my raiding desire in first place
remember in legion we had many items that don't proc, tier sets, weapon, legos, and i think also trinkets? yet it takes average 4 years to complete full BiS for my pally, and if u are unlucky u can get to 10 years
in comparison during wrath i actually got full set from crusade and icc raids, while got a couple of items from Ulduar (hm was hard and we didn't finish) and got best gear from non-hm ulduar, basically i was always near best gear, reason i didn't get best set in ulduar wasn't because it never dropped to me, but because I never was able to do the hardmode itself
in wrath i had paladin and priest always raid-gear ready for guild, with rogue dps semi-ready, and all from raiding, in MoP (start of WF, was still ignored) I had a druid and a paladin, in Legion i was planning the same, saw the brutal reality for my paladin, decided to fuck it and enjoy the amazing class hall campaigns (unless u are priest), it did give me a LOT of fun, but a non-raiding fun

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WoW Tokens and Blizzard's overall lack of shits given towards boosting communities have done a lot more to make WoW "pay to win" than a once-only level 58 character boost purchase has.

Currently in WoW the only viable way to achieve Curve or KSM is to purchase boosts. It is damn near impossible to pug your way to the top because your lack of achievements and gear will get you rejected from every group you try to join. Boosting and elitism has created a literal catch-22 scenario.

If Blizzard truly care about the integrity of their game, it's not the multiboxers they should be going after, it's the boosting communities. Especially when loads of them are now accepting real world money in some shape or form as part of their business model, in direct violation of the game's EULA.

they won't, because that increases - a LOT - the token wow economy, they know what they doing, blizzard know and record every whisper we say in-game (can't remember why but a GM years like back in TBC showed me whisper i made to a friend), Bobby Kodick can't get his 30 million bonus on sub numbers alone
And while token economy did drive a lot of players, it sadly still made far more profit from whales to give a fuck about half of population that left, that's how mobile games work, u have 90% of poor playerbase that exist to makes the whales feel satisfied with their superiority in game with their cash

[deenman]

the chance of getting BiS for my protadin during Legion nighthold raid was if i raided non-stop for 4 years average, i calculated it myself, and it is why it killed my raiding desire in first place
remember in legion we had many items that don't proc, tier sets, weapon, legos, and i think also trinkets? yet it takes average 4 years to complete full BiS for my pally, and if u are unlucky u can get to 10 years
in comparison during wrath i actually got full set from crusade and icc raids, while got a couple of items from Ulduar (hm was hard and we didn't finish) and got best gear from non-hm ulduar, basically i was always near best gear, reason i didn't get best set in ulduar wasn't because it never dropped to me, but because I never was able to do the hardmode itself
in wrath i had paladin and priest always raid-gear ready for guild, with rogue dps semi-ready, and all from raiding, in MoP (start of WF, was still ignored) I had a druid and a paladin, in Legion i was planning the same, saw the brutal reality for my paladin, decided to fuck it and enjoy the amazing class hall campaigns (unless u are priest), it did give me a LOT of fun, but a non-raiding fun

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they won't, because that increases - a LOT - the token wow economy, they know what they doing, blizzard know and record every whisper we say in-game (can't remember why but a GM years like back in TBC showed me whisper i made to a friend), Bobby Kodick can't get his 30 million bonus on sub numbers alone
And while token economy did drive a lot of players, it sadly still made far more profit from whales to give a fuck about half of population that left, that's how mobile games work, u have 90% of poor playerbase that exist to makes the whales feel satisfied with their superiority in game with their cash

trinkets did titanforge,also wile weapons didnt,the relics you used in weps ofc they titanforged

[InflaterMouse]

Define "win" first. Do you really think, that only something like Mythic WF - is true "win"? Where is that red line, game devs can't cross? Winning has another meaning, that has nothing to do with competitive content - completing game. If you complete content and have nothing else to do - you win. For me P2W - is when you can skip content for $$$. And level boost is exactly this.

For example. When you buy character for $$$ in FPS game instead of grinding it - it's not P2W, because getting that character isn't content. You'll play this game anyway, but get more fun, when playing on that character. But leveling IS CONTENT. Getting new max level character faster, than other player - IS ADVANTAGE.

Even shorter - you pay for not playing the game, so it turns into souvenir shop.

I guess different strokes for different folks. To be honest I think it would be better perceived if boosts were only allowed for people with max level characters. Would you feel like this was viable if you had a max level character? Also, if you grind out a toon from 1-max level by aoe grinding or only doing dungeon grinds, do you think that's pay to win as well? Because by doing the leveling process this way you skip 90% of the content. I mean do you feel differently about it in the same regard I guess is what I am asking.

- - - Updated - - -

WoW Tokens and Blizzard's overall lack of shits given towards boosting communities have done a lot more to make WoW "pay to win" than a once-only level 58 character boost purchase has.

Currently in WoW the only viable way to achieve Curve or KSM is to purchase boosts. It is damn near impossible to pug your way to the top because your lack of achievements and gear will get you rejected from every group you try to join. Boosting and elitism has created a literal catch-22 scenario.

If Blizzard truly care about the integrity of their game, it's not the multiboxers they should be going after, it's the boosting communities. Especially when loads of them are now accepting real world money in some shape or form as part of their business model, in direct violation of the game's EULA.

- - - Updated - - -



As somebody who played Hunter throughout BC and Wrath, I'd encourage you not to play the class. Hunters do not get good until Cataclysm at the very earliest.

In PvP you're gimped by the dead zone which can easily be manipulated by mages, warriors and rogues in 1v1 duels for a quick defeat. Hunters are the only ranged class with a minimum attack range.

As for PvE, good luck getting a raid spot. You may be offered one if you're willing to go on bitch-duty and play Survival to stack Expose Weakness. Otherwise, more than one BM Hunter in a 10-man or two in a 25-man raid is seen as a liability. Especially when you'll be ordered to dismiss your pet or get /gkicked by idiot guild leaders retaining their Vanilla "pets are bad" mentality who don't understand that your pet will be doing much of the damage.

I guess I was and I'm in better guilds than you regarding hunters. BM hunters carry one of the highest dps consistencies through all of TBC and do very well in WOTLK. In TBC for PVE they will top dps charts on most raid encounters for the expansion if played correctly and should be played correctly given the ease of operation. As far as PVP I don't disagree but they get better for PVP in WOTLK.

[Ringthane]

Paying real life money to gain an in-game advantage is the litteral definition of pay2win, regardless of how small or minor the advantage is. Skipping the lvling process up to level 58 certainly qualifies, thats 2-3 months for a casual player.

What are you winning, though? Do you get a million dollars because you got to the same level everyone else does, just faster? Can you one-shot raid bosses because you boosted, whereas somebody who didn't can't?

If you're going to call something "pay to win", there has to be a "win" after the pay. So where is the actual win?

[InflaterMouse]

What are you winning, though? Do you get a million dollars because you got to the same level everyone else does, just faster? Can you one-shot raid bosses because you boosted, whereas somebody who didn't can't?

If you're going to call something "pay to win", there has to be a "win" after the pay. So where is the actual win?

Every time I ask the same question I get the answer that bypassing content is the "win." Different opinions, which I am cool with them having but don't share. Further I have played the content from vanilla to SLs numerous times across numerous toons and would bypass it 1000 times after having completed it 1 times EVERY TIME. I personally think they should add an achievement that requires you complete all the story lines not associated with raids and gives you access to boost or pay to boost as many toons as you want. Just my opinion.

[Thestrawman]

Good news! That pay to win boost I bought lasted all of two hours before every single piece of gear I got was replaced by quest items and dungeon drops. So much winning for me!