"Pay to win"

[Darkeon]

So you won time. Wow. You're a champ.

You do know you're really running out of time, though, right? You have been since the day you were born. So no matter if it takes five minutes, five days, five weeks, or five months, it really doesn't matter in the long run.

Really crossing my fingers I don't bump into you in a professional field, if that's your view on time and the likes. lol

[Kralljin]

Either way, none of this does anything but confirm that there are tons of bots because there are tons of gold buyers.

Why are there tons of goldbuyers?
Because they get away with it.

When people can trade tens of thousands of gold from one account to another without Blizzard even taking a look how an account acquired that gold in the first place, then it's frankly Blizzard turning a blind eye towards goldbuying.

After all, they can read any account like an open book, they can check from where someone acquired this sort of gold and how, if someone had lots of gold in their mailbox over a period of time from questionable accounts, that's red flag, when they put up an auction for some item completely over market value and their buyer was some shady account, that's a red flag.

At the end of the day, what is happening within WoW is completely transparent to Blizzard, it's just that anything that eludes automated detection will fly past them - and the people who have a monetary interest in selling gold naturally put in some effort to find out what those automated parameters are to avoid them.

Take the most egregious example, something such as Gressil selling for 200k, you can't tell me with a straight that a person tasked with finding & banning players who purchased gold wouldn't find some very fishy activity on an account that acquired a sum of gold that normally takes thousands of hours to acquire.

And honestly, when Blizzard already drops the ball on such easy to spot goldfarmers, then i have to assume that their actions against goldbuyers are very much absent.

Tl;dr - the community perpetuates the massive demand by inflating costs (gear, mats, consumes, GDKP) to a point where it’s out of reach for the average player, which is the target.

It's just inflation occurring, there is nobody actively enforcing these prices.
When someone sets up an auction for tremendous prices and someone who purchased gold chooses to buy it, then that's how it is, there is no "people who bought gold can't buy it" option.

This is not the community the "perpetuating" anything, this is basic economics.
Blaming the community on this issue is like blaming society for fake money, except in this instance, one could at least attempt to verify whether you're given fake money.

[Prag]

Why are there tons of goldbuyers?
Because they get away with it.

When people can trade tens of thousands of gold from one account to another without Blizzard even taking a look how an account acquired that gold in the first place, then it's frankly Blizzard turning a blind eye towards goldbuying.

After all, they can read any account like an open book, they can check from where someone acquired this sort of gold and how, if someone had lots of gold in their mailbox over a period of time from questionable accounts, that's red flag, when they put up an auction for some item completely over market value and their buyer was some shady account, that's a red flag.

At the end of the day, what is happening within WoW is completely transparent to Blizzard, it's just that anything that eludes automated detection will fly past them - and the people who have a monetary interest in selling gold naturally put in some effort to find out what those automated parameters are to avoid them.

Take the most egregious example, something such as Gressil selling for 200k, you can't tell me with a straight that a person tasked with finding & banning players who purchased gold wouldn't find some very fishy activity on an account that acquired a sum of gold that normally takes thousands of hours to acquire.

And honestly, when Blizzard already drops the ball on such easy to spot goldfarmers, then i have to assume that their actions against goldbuyers are very much absent.

It's just inflation occurring, there is nobody actively enforcing these prices.
When someone sets up an auction for tremendous prices and someone who purchased gold chooses to buy it, then that's how it is, there is no "people who bought gold can't buy it" option.

This is not the community the "perpetuating" anything, this is basic economics.
Blaming the community on this issue is like blaming society for fake money, except in this instance, one could at least attempt to verify whether you're given fake money.

You just explained how the community is perpetuating it. It’s against the rules but not enforced, so it’s done more often, which creates more demand and more bots. It’s a bit of a chicken-or-egg, sure, but that doesn’t alleviate the players from their responsibility in not breaking the rules.

4 pieces of pre-bis right now would run me close to 70k. That’s not inflation when the average 100g-200g legitimate goldmaking income would take 20 days /played to afford.

[Kralljin]

but that doesn’t alleviate the players from their responsibility in not breaking the rules.

The fact that players are in no position to stop such behavior from others does however.

Imagine if a spec existed that could straight up one shot anything in the game your response to it is:
"Well, when players play such a completely OP spec, it's also their fault!"

This is just shifting the blame and not even attempting to come up with a solution to solve the problem, because the only group of people that is in a position to realistically solve that issue are the people working at Blizzard.

4 pieces of pre-bis right now would run me close to 70k. That’s not inflation when the average 100g-200g legitimate goldmaking income would take 20 days /played to afford.

Don't tell me any sob stories about this, i was in favour of a gold reset, but there some people were quite keen on keeping their 5k gold for epic flying, it seems.

[tacoloco]

You do know you're really running out of time, though, right? You have been since the day you were born. So no matter if it takes five minutes, five days, five weeks, or five months, it really doesn't matter in the long run.

Time always matters. Once spent, it can never be recovered. Your comment is a good argument for people to consider boosts of some sort to avoid game time sinks.

[Prag]

The fact that players are in no position to stop such behavior from others does however.

Imagine if a spec existed that could straight up one shot anything in the game your response to it is:
"Well, when players play such a completely OP spec, it's also their fault!"

This is just shifting the blame and not even attempting to come up with a solution to solve the problem, because the only group of people that is in a position to realistically solve that issue are the people working at Blizzard.

Fortunately I’m able to differentiate the two circumstances, and like I said, neither party is free of blame. But if people are trying to say “p2w is toxic for the community and game”, I’m just looking at the game and thinking someone buying a boost to start TBC is the least of my concerns.

Don't tell me any sob stories about this, i was in favour of a gold reset, but there some people quite keen on keeping their 5k gold for epic flying, it seems.

Yeah, it was just one problem bleeding into a bigger version of that problem. A gold cap on transfer to TBC era would have done wonders, or a complete reset, idk.

[Kralljin]

Fortunately I’m able to differentiate the two circumstances, and like I said, neither party is free of blame.

The crux is that you ignore that the community is not a singular entity, some people frankly do not have a very big problem with paying real money for stuff in WoW.

Blizzard however is in the position to act a single entity because they are a professional company and frankly, they are the ones who wrote their own ToS, it is one thing not to abide by rules set up by others, it is another to not enforce rules you set up yourself.

But if people are trying to say “p2w is toxic for the community and game”, I’m just looking at the game and thinking someone buying a boost to start TBC is the least of my concerns.

I think the dynamic is still very different because the boost is officially sanctioned by Blizzard, there isn't even the possibility of ever being punished for engaging in it, whereas with buying gold, the possibility at least exists.

[TheRevenantHero]

Pay 2 win games have existed in the past. World of Tanks used to sell gold ammo that penetrated armour and could only be bought for real money. RIFT had trinket slots for your character that could only be accessed with real money. Those are actual tangible advantages that were only accessible to people who paid for them.

But that's not "winning". that's gaining an unfair advantage. It's still p2w but there really isn't winning there. You can't skip 58 levels of content without spending actual money so by your own definition here, WoW is p2w.

[Dhrizzle]

But that's not "winning". that's gaining an unfair advantage. It's still p2w but there really isn't winning there. You can't skip 58 levels of content without spending actual money so by your own definition here, WoW is p2w.

It's gaining an advantage another player can not receive unless they also pay additional money. If I bought a boost other players can catch up to my character and make it so you can't tell which of us bought the advantage. In a p2w game it would be obvious by one character having the paid extras.

Now WoW does have features that are p2w but for a rather narrow definition of winning. For pet and mount collectors the fact some things have to be bought on the store means there will always be an advantage to players who put down extra cash. Arguably the existence of the token means anyone can grind any shop mount without paying extra, but then we get into the fuzzy realm where you have to look at how much time is saved by paying cash, and if the grind is too arduous for someone to be reasonably expected to complete.

[TheRevenantHero]

It's gaining an advantage another player can not receive unless they also pay additional money. If I bought a boost other players can catch up to my character and make it so you can't tell which of us bought the advantage. In a p2w game it would be obvious by one character having the paid extras.

Now WoW does have features that are p2w but for a rather narrow definition of winning. For pet and mount collectors the fact some things have to be bought on the store means there will always be an advantage to players who put down extra cash. Arguably the existence of the token means anyone can grind any shop mount without paying extra, but then we get into the fuzzy realm where you have to look at how much time is saved by paying cash, and if the grind is too arduous for someone to be reasonably expected to complete.

....There is absolutely nothing in game that lets you skip 58 levels of content without spending actual money. That, by definition, makes it p2w. Why is it that if it's any other game something like that is called p2w but it's not p2w if it's WoW?

[Dhrizzle]

....There is absolutely nothing in game that lets you skip 58 levels of content without spending actual money. That, by definition, makes it p2w. Why is it that if it's any other game something like that is called p2w but it's not p2w if it's WoW?

Given time you can gain 58 levels for your character. With pay-2-win mechanics no amount of time spent playing the game will give you the same advantage. Another game I play is MechWarrior online. In that game I can spend hours and hours grinding to buy a new mech, or I can whip out my cashcard and buy it with real money. I don't consider it "pay-to-win" because the money doesn't get you an unattainable advantage, it just saves time.

[TheRevenantHero]

Given time you can gain 58 levels for your character. With pay-2-win mechanics no amount of time spent playing the game will give you the same advantage. Another game I play is MechWarrior online. In that game I can spend hours and hours grinding to buy a new mech, or I can whip out my cashcard and buy it with real money. I don't consider it "pay-to-win" because the money doesn't get you an unattainable advantage, it just saves time.

Ok well you can say it's not p2w but you'd be wrong. If you can spend real money to gain an advantage over players NOT spending real world money, it's p2w. Period.

[Vash The Stampede]

People are holding way too tightly to this assumption that everyone wants to completely re-experience the whole journey, or that they should have to.

If someone knew they wanted to play TBC and wanted to experience Classic, they’d have started playing literally any time over the last 2 years.

Despite assumptions, it’s obvious the re-releases are intended as siloed experiences. You have Classic Era, TBC Classic and I assume at some point more Classics. If the intention were a linear re-experience, they wouldn’t have separated Classic Era and TBC in such a way.

Boosting created a huge mess a problems. Firstly it isn't fair to those who didn't pay for the boost. Secondly, even if Activision gave everyone free boosts then TBC wasn't designed to have players boosted to level 58, and there will be consequences. Leave the boosts to ShadowLands, not in TBC. You hate playing a game you love to play then I can't help you there except L2P. Play a mobile game, I hear you all have phones.

[Prag]

Boosting created a huge mess a problems. Firstly it isn't fair to those who didn't pay for the boost. Secondly, even if Activision gave everyone free boosts then TBC wasn't designed to have players boosted to level 58, and there will be consequences. Leave the boosts to ShadowLands, not in TBC. You hate playing a game you love to play then I can't help you there except L2P. Play a mobile game, I hear you all have phones.

You feeling personally injured by other people being level 58 through the boost is a YOU problem. It’s created exactly zero problems for the community. No apocalyptic botting sprees, or sudden saturation of profession CDs. Just a bunch of Warriors/Mages switching to Hunters/Warlocks.

Expecting Activision to not do Activision things, pretending Classic was some return to Indie Blizzard, and trying to reshape the definition of p2w is also a YOU issue.

It’s one thing to be like “I don’t like this”, but this whole “go back to retail/another game” while you refuse to just accept that, despite its faults, it’s an enjoyable game.

You wanna complain? Fine.

But to take ownership of a game based on what it was like FOURTEEN YEARS and literally hundreds of employees ago is a little too “get off my lawn” to take seriously.

[arkanon]

Boosting created a huge mess a problems. Firstly it isn't fair to those who didn't pay for the boost. Secondly, even if Activision gave everyone free boosts then TBC wasn't designed to have players boosted to level 58, and there will be consequences. Leave the boosts to ShadowLands, not in TBC. You hate playing a game you love to play then I can't help you there except L2P. Play a mobile game, I hear you all have phones.

What mess? This is entirely on your head.

[Couchpotato2013]

You feeling personally injured by other people being level 58 through the boost is a YOU problem. It’s created exactly zero problems for the community. No apocalyptic botting sprees, or sudden saturation of profession CDs. Just a bunch of Warriors/Mages switching to Hunters/Warlocks.

Expecting Activision to not do Activision things, pretending Classic was some return to Indie Blizzard, and trying to reshape the definition of p2w is also a YOU issue.

It’s one thing to be like “I don’t like this”, but this whole “go back to retail/another game” while you refuse to just accept that, despite its faults, it’s an enjoyable game.

You wanna complain? Fine.

But to take ownership of a game based on what it was like FOURTEEN YEARS and literally hundreds of employees ago is a little too “get off my lawn” to take seriously.

Personally I have no qualms with the one boost because it is akin to the deal we got since the WoD preorder. The pay to win element can’t be dismissed if blizzard does bring up the option to have multiple boosts per wow account. And yes I checked to see if the boost on a second wow account would “float/exist” for the entire blizz account like how boosts do for retail. Aka like for retail buy a boost for WoW2 it can be used on WoW1 through 8, however for tbcc that is not the case.

And then as for the discussion on the other aspects of boosting. Yes there is an element of failure/lack of returns associated with getting boosts by paying other player with blizzard-blessed gold from WoWToken transactions. However with the predominance of the boosting communities seriously since gallywix’s formation and then demise (yes I know SLB and others were around before then), the degree of failure drops off pretty heavily since said boosting communities police themselves to weed out bad/poor boosters regularly even if they made the initial filter selection process. I have seen some of the dumbest stuff linked to me in discord from those channels and it astounds me how people act like that. Generally, most are being too cocky for their own good going headfirst into something they can’t handle and then ruining it for everyone.

Biggest concern I have for boosting is how it diminishes completion points for the majority of the population. Like it would be very interesting to see how many people genuinely complete AotC, CE, duelist, elite, KSM (and with the upcoming 20s achievements) without a boost or handout from friends. Also as of now, there are 18412 characters last I checked having 2072+ io (lowest score possible for no time remaining for all 20s). When they put out that announcement there were 12119 characters having that score. So you can get the idea that we had 50% population growth.

[Super Kami Dende]

Paying money to not play a game they payed for. Sounds stupid when put into that context.

But they want to play TBC not Classic. Hence the point of the skipping. So that point is irrelevant.

- - - Updated - - -

What are you winning on other P2W type games?

An advantage that cannot be obtained through in game means. Which levelling to 58 is not.

[Darkeon]

An advantage that cannot be obtained through in game means. Which levelling to 58 is not.

So you would be fine with Blizzard selling Mythic and other end-game gear?

[chrisnumbers]

So you would be fine with Blizzard selling Mythic and other end-game gear?

Why are you acting like being level 58 is end game content?

[Darkeon]

Why are you acting like being level 58 is end game content?

The post I quoted deliberately said that P2W is when you purchase something not achievable otherwise. Try to keep up, my good man.