"Pay to win"

[Daymanmb]

Time isn’t power. If it were, casuals with 500 days played on retail wouldn’t need LFR.

Right, but starting at lvl 58 instead of lvl 1 is power.

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If we’re going to make asinine comparisons, let’s compare the power of a $40 boost character vs one after 3 months of game time.

Its not asinine.. not even a little bit. Youre comparing the starting points of two players. One who didnt buy a boost and another who did. The one who did, bought power.

In theory, if both players play for 3 months, at similar paces, the boosted player would still have a power advantage.

[Darkeon]

I read it, I just don’t know why you’d use other games’ cash shops to answer my question on relevance to skipping old content. I was giving you benefit of the doubt.

Because you asked a question about my statement on the irrelevancy of the gradient of the P2W aspect - so I gave examples of other games, which have stores with P2W elements which are, imo, way more toxic than WoW's.
Some of these stores are worst, some are better but, in the end, all P2W elements.

If we’re going to make asinine comparisons, let’s compare the power of $40 boost character vs one with 3 months of game time.

No. We are comparing players on an EVEN field.
Both players start NOW. Not a dude that has been playing for months.
Player A buys boost and duels his friend, Player B, that didn't buy the boost. Who fucking wins? I bet it's the one that purchased power with real life money.

And again, this stupid example is only to challenge your opinion of how a boost isn't power. It is both power and time-saving being bought with these Tokens.

[Prag]

Because you asked if a question about the irrelevancy of the gradient of the P2W aspect - so I gave examples of other games, which have stores with P2W elements which are, imo, way more toxic than WoW's.

I asked none of that. I asked why skipping old or current content is irrelevant.

No. We are comparing players on an EVEN field.
Both players start NOW. Not a dude that has been playing for months.
Player A buys boost and duels his friend, Player B, that didn't buy the boost. Who fucking wins? I bet it's the one that purchased power with real life money.

And again, this stupid example is only to challenge your opinion of how a boost isn't power. It is both power and time-saving being bought with these Tokens.

$40 (boost) is what, 3 months of game time? Let’s compare the boosted 58 to the one who had 3 months to level and gear.

[Darkeon]

I asked none of that. I asked why skipping old or current content is irrelevant.

And I replied why I find the argument irrelevant. Because you are purchasing levels that let you skip content, whether it is 50% of the content or 100% of the content, you are still purchasing levels.

$40 (boost) is what, 3 months of game time? Let’s compare the boosted 58 to the one who had 3 months to level and gear.

Does the Player A have to wait 3 months to start playing? That's why he wouldn't definitely win against Player B on said hypothetical duel?
It's really not that hard of a question to answer, mate.

[Prag]

And I replied why I find the argument irrelevant. Because you are purchasing levels that let you skip content, whether it is 50% of the content or 100% of the content, you are still purchasing levels.

Except in WoW’s case, this is a re-release and it’s focused on the expansion, not the series. That’s obvious because of both their wording and the separation of servers. Otherwise they’d just have “Classic Era” and we’d be replaying the entire timeline in a linear fashion.

Does the Player A have to wait 3 months to start playing? That's why he wouldn't definitely win against Player B on said hypothetical duel?
It's really not that hard of a question to answer, mate.

It apparently is, because you’re failing to see that time is money in a subscription based MMO, not power.

When both have spent $40 and stopped playing, who has the advantage?

[Darkeon]

Except in WoW’s case, this is a re-release and it’s focused on the expansion, not the series. That’s obvious because of both their wording and the separation of servers. Otherwise they’d just have “Classic Era” and we’d be replaying the entire timeline in a linear fashion.

Yet there it is, allowing players to purchase level ups. Regardless of where, how strong, how fair and lenient, etc, it is.

It apparently is, because you’re failing to see that time is money in a subscription based MMO, not power.

When both have spent $40 and stopped playing, who has the advantage?

You keep saying it's not power - yet refuse to answer the question on who wins the duel out of the two players. Curiouser and curiouser..

And I think I gave you enough time of the day. 5 posts was more than enough to being able to answer such a simple question, but you persisted on dodging the shit out of it. lol

[Prag]

Yet there it is, allowing players to purchase level ups. Regardless of where, how strong, how fair and lenient, etc, it is.



You keep saying it's not power - yet refuse to answer the question on who wins the duel out of the two players. Curiouser and curiouser..

And I think I gave you enough time of the day. 5 posts was more than enough to being able to answer such a simple Yes or No question, but you persisted on dodging the shit out of it. lol

Yes, you’ve spent 5 posts trying to use a 58 beating a level 1 as the basis for your argument on how a game is pay to win. Time well spent.

[Darkeon]

Yes, you’ve spent 5 posts trying to use a 58 beating a level 1 as the basis for your argument on how a game is pay to win. Time well spent.

So it IS power

Thank you, finally, for the reply!

[Prag]

So it IS power

Thank you, finally, for the reply!

You waited an hour for someone to answer that a 58 will beat a level 1 in a duel?

I’d ask what you think was won, but given your definition, I’ll pass.

[TheRevenantHero]

If people wanted to buy it? Sure. Doesn't affect my fun in game. And People can still achieve that stuff in game without paying. Next please.

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Gold Boosts.

Not the same thing because you actually need to be logged into the game. The character boost just requires you to spend money and you are IMMEDIATELY level 58.

[Daymanmb]

$40 (boost) is what, 3 months of game time? Let’s compare the boosted 58 to the one who had 3 months to level and gear.

Your comparison is so bad.. Is the boosted 58 sitting there waiting for 3 months, or is it progressing in level and gear, as well?

With a boost, youre literally buying an advantage. Thats a p2w element. You can try to dodge and obfuscate all you want, but at the end of the day, youre plainly wrong.

[Prag]

Your comparison is so bad.. Is the boosted 58 sitting there waiting for 3 months, or is it progressing in level and gear, as well?

With a boost, youre literally buying an advantage. Thats a p2w element. You can try to dodge and obfuscate all you want, but at the end of the day, youre plainly wrong.

There's a reason you have to caveat with "element of p2w", likely because telling someone their "advantage" is being able to actually play the re-release is a hard sell.

Every version of p2w I've encountered has generally been things unobtainable without real money - eg better weapons, ammo, perks, etc. The "advantage" and power you keep referring to in WoW doesn't fit into that category, and given the circumstances (re-release, separate Classic, TBC, etc), it just doesn't scream "WINNING" to me... It actually feels like losing if I had felt compelled to pay having already purchased and cleared TBC once.

You can make it a bigger deal than it is, but this just isn't represented in-game. Nobody's running around screaming "omg these boosted characters have such an advantage".

[Daymanmb]

There's a reason you have to caveat with "element of p2w", likely because telling someone their "advantage" is being able to actually play the re-release is a hard sell.

Every version of p2w I've encountered has generally been things unobtainable without real money - eg better weapons, ammo, perks, etc. The "advantage" and power you keep referring to in WoW doesn't fit into that category, and given the circumstances (re-release, separate Classic, TBC, etc), it just doesn't scream "WINNING" to me... It actually feels like losing if I had felt compelled to pay having already purchased and cleared TBC once.

You can make it a bigger deal than it is, but this just isn't represented in-game. Nobody's running around screaming "omg these boosted characters have such an advantage".

Your anecdotal experiences mean nothing to this conversation, I hope you understand that. Many p2w elements allow players to bypass roadblocks, time sinks, or inconveniences with real money. Wow retail and classic both offer that in the way of level boosts. How you feel about it is inconsequential to the facts at hand.

[Prag]

Your anecdotal experiences mean nothing to this conversation, I hope you understand that. Many p2w elements allow players to bypass roadblocks, time sinks, or inconveniences with real money. Wow retail and classic both offer that in the way of level boosts. How you feel about it its inconsequential to the facts at hand.

And your obtuse revisions to the definition of "pay to win" are equally anecdotal. What, is your abrasive dismissal of in game experience supposed to drive your point home? Lmao. I've played p2w games, and it's clear the impact it has in-game.

[EasyE]

Boost is more then fine, there are plenty of players myself included that did not or want to play vanilla, but would love to play TBC with our friends now we dont have to spend 2 months leveling we can get right to the good stuff and this helps with server population as well which is an over all win for the health of the game.

[Daymanmb]

And your obtuse revisions to the definition of "pay to win" are equally anecdotal.

Using real money to bypass time sinks and/or gain power is not a revision, that is the definition.. Youre just delusional and white knighting for a company you like.

[Super Kami Dende]

Buying any power for money is P2W. That has been my stance since always.

Good try.

Just because it is your stance doesn't mean it is the definition. It just means your stance is incorrect and you refuse to change it.

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Not the same thing because you actually need to be logged into the game. The character boost just requires you to spend money and you are IMMEDIATELY level 58.

Ironically you need to be logged into the game to activate the Boost.

[Xykotic]

You waited an hour for someone to answer that a 58 will beat a level 1 in a duel?

I’d ask what you think was won, but given your definition, I’ll pass.

So since winning any game is pointless, letting people cheat is fine?

[archelos91]

Everyone is paying for their sub to play. Hence - Pay to win.

[Prag]

Using real money to bypass time sinks and/or gain power is not a revision, that is the definition.. Youre just delusional and white knighting for a company you like.

Your refusal/inability to acknowledge nuance in a complicated circumstance (see: hundreds of replies here alone) != me white knighting. Not surprising you’d label someone that based on a single topic.

When Cata launched with the first DE, I was able to play at exactly 12am, while box buyers had to wait to pick it up and install. According to your definition, that’s p2w. I was way ahead of my guildies by the time they installed and got through server queues.

Tons of AAA titles on PSN let me buy the CE/Deluxe and start playing a day ahead. Apparently that’s p2w.

Your incredibly narrow definition is convenient to your argument but fails on simple tests.

And before you try to reply with “but…”, just remember: any real money to bypass time sinks is p2w, because apparently context just complicates the conversation for you.

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So since winning any game is pointless, letting people cheat is fine?

Time is finite. Do you really want to waste it asking this kind of a question?