"Pay to win"

[Soon-TM]

Yes, one does exist (not having a mount) and the other doesn’t (buying raid gear).

You read the part where I said “scenarios that have never existed”, right? Because that was the important part.

You’re welcome.

Do you really go into BGs without a mount if you can afford it? I'm really curious

[TheRevenantHero]

Just stop. I literally applied the same logic you did and you’ve got nothing to say other than some butchering of a buzzword.

No you didn't. Mounts don't increase your stats and won't help you kill dungeon/raid bosses. Levels DO increase your stats and power and allow you to defeat strong dungeon/raid bosses. You didn't use logic. You used the definition of a false equivalency.

[Prag]

Do you really go into BGs without a mount if you can afford it? I'm really curious

Did you PvP before level 40? Or before you got epic in the 60 bracket?

Or did you ever accidentally bank your mount while in a BG queue? ������

[Soon-TM]

Did you PvP before level 40? Or before you got epic in the 60 bracket?

Or did you ever accidentally bank your mount while in a BG queue? ������

Considering that sub 40 PvP doesn't allow mounts at all, your "hypothetic scenario" sounds even sillier, but what can I do /shrug

[Prag]

No you didn't. Mounts don't increase your stats and won't help you kill dungeon/raid bosses. Levels DO increase your stats and power and allow you to defeat strong dungeon/raid bosses. You didn't use logic. You used the definition of a false equivalency.

This list of parameters is getting really long.

And mount speed is a stat… I think? Not on the paper doll but is in talents, trinkets and Spurs. Idk, we’re getting into some grey area here.

[Drusin]

I got a better question for you all, for the sake of argument let's say we all agree wow IS p2w 100% of us agree. What difference would it make? Are you going to quit? No? Then who cares if it is or isn't. Yes? Then why have the conversation if you think it is and would quit if it is? Do you need "us" to agree that it is before you quit?

[Prag]

Considering that sub 40 PvP doesn't allow mounts at all, your "hypothetic scenario" sounds even sillier, but what can I do /shrug

Did they give you a mount when you dinged 40? Do you suppose there are cases where people don’t have the gold but still went into BG’s? Do you think the 41 who bought all his skills and couldn’t afford a mount didn’t feel less powerful in a BG?

I don’t know - use the creative juice you were sipping when you thought up the “buying raid gear” scenario.

[TheRevenantHero]

This list of parameters is getting really long.

And mount speed is a stat… I think? Not on the paper doll but is in talents, trinkets and Spurs. Idk, we’re getting into some grey area here.

Mount speed isn't a stat. You are doing such hardcore reaching just to avoid saying WoW is p2w lmao. Once again, mounts don't increase character power. Levels do. As a result, paid character boosts are p2w.

[Prag]

Mount speed isn't a stat. You are doing such hardcore reaching just to avoid saying WoW is p2w lmao. Once again, mounts don't increase character power. Levels do. As a result, paid character boosts are p2w.

Not having a mount will prevent you from attuning and killing raid/dungeon bosses.

A mount is easy to obtain. So is level 58.

This is no more of a reach than “buying level 58 is winning” when put through any critical analysis, which I’ll remind you, is more than a single-parameter pass… because we’re not toddlers and we should be able to consider context and complexities.

[Ryzeth]

Not having a mount will prevent you from attuning and killing raid/dungeon bosses.

A mount is easy to obtain. So is level 58.

This is no more of a reach than “buying level 58 is winning” when put through any critical analysis, which I’ll remind you, is more than a single-parameter pass… because we’re not toddlers and we should be able to consider context and complexities.

Pretty pointless to argue with him. He's made it pretty obvious he has no clue what he's actually discussing. Just sees spending money == omg p2w!!!!

Generic wow hater/troll #82715.

[DechCJC]

Pretty pointless to argue with him. He's made it pretty obvious he has no clue what he's actually discussing. Just sees spending money == omg p2w!!!!

Generic wow hater/troll #82715.

I could say the same in reverse quite easily, this thread will never reach a consensus. There wouldn’t be this many pages if there weren’t valid points on both sides depending on your views.

[Clawsout]

I cant believe you guys are still whining about this its 3 weeks into tbc get the fuck over it already

[Dhrizzle]

Mounts aren't player power. They don't make you stronger. Levels DO make you stronger. So therefore paid boosts are p2w.

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And once again, that's a HUGE reach.

No it's not if you realise that not everyone plays the same way you do. If you play for a certain aspect of the game and part of it is locked behind a real-money transaction then it's fair to say the game is pay-2-win. It's not like a simple boost that only saves time as anyone can reach level 58 fairly easily.

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So buying a full set of SWP gear wouldn't be P2W, just because someone might not be interested in PvE. I see...

Well no it wouldn't be pay-2-win because it wouldn't be something that people couldn't attain through playing the game normally. Now you could argue that the challenges of getting through Sunwell and gearing up there are so arduous that it's virtually pay-2-win or indistinguishable, though again it depends on what you consider "winning." If you think the only point of the game is to get big numbers on your character sheet then yeah, it's pay-2-win. If you think overcoming the challenges of raids is the point of the game then it isn't, in fact it's pay-2-skip which makes it really pointless. If you don't care about raiding or getting 1337 gear then it's a complete non-issue.

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If you read the post carefully, you will notice that I used a conditional tense, "wouldn't", thus implying that I'm talking about a something hypothetic, not about something that actually exists, in which case I'd be using present tense. Words have a meaning and a context, who would have thought.



Yes it is. BC isn't a standalone game, it's an expansion. Again, words have meanings.

Interesting, so are you saying that when it released the TBC expansion was a pay-2-win mechanic as without putting down the cash players couldn't advance beyond 60 which gave a huge advantage.

[Ryzeth]

I could say the same in reverse quite easily, this thread will never reach a consensus. There wouldn’t be this many pages if there weren’t valid points on both sides depending on your views.

Nah. There's two types of people: those who know neither game is p2w, and those who are wrong.

[Dalinos]

And your examples were:

- WoW token: not relevant to Classic (yet)
- Tekken: Where you buy 7 characters unavailable through the game (? - sorry, I don’t play it)


The token is closer to p2w than the boost. The Tekken thing sounds like it if they aren’t available through in-game means.

I just don’t consider a boost that allows someone to play TBC Classic specifically, without having to also play Classic, as p2w. I see the releases as targeted play-throughs of a specific expansion. I just don’t see them in the same ballpark as buying unattainable weapons/ammo/characters or whatever from other games, and I think that’s the context that people want to ignore.

Yes, the Tekken characters are completely unavailable unless you fork over cash. No in-game way to get them. Much like That Retarded Horse. The community thought it was a drop off of Algalon, but it was a drop from the Cash Store, and the price tag was 20 bucks.

[Drusin]

I cant believe you guys are still whining about this its 3 weeks into tbc get the fuck over it already

It takes nothing to do this since you can just swing by whenever you're bored, argue, then go about your day. That's what I do at least lol, when I get bored and remember MMO-Champion exists I swing by comment on something then go back to what I was doing

I still think this argument is pointless since

1. You're not going to change anyones opinion, them shits are set in stone
2. Even if everyone agrees what then? Gonna echo chamber and shit talk the game because you aren't quitting

[TheRevenantHero]

Not having a mount will prevent you from attuning and killing raid/dungeon bosses.

A mount is easy to obtain. So is level 58.

This is no more of a reach than “buying level 58 is winning” when put through any critical analysis, which I’ll remind you, is more than a single-parameter pass… because we’re not toddlers and we should be able to consider context and complexities.

Mounts don't cause your character to hit harder. Mounts don't increase your hit points. Once again, you're literally using a false equivalency instead of just admitting you're wrong.

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No it's not if you realise that not everyone plays the same way you do. If you play for a certain aspect of the game and part of it is locked behind a real-money transaction then it's fair to say the game is pay-2-win. It's not like a simple boost that only saves time as anyone can reach level 58 fairly easily.

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Well no it wouldn't be pay-2-win because it wouldn't be something that people couldn't attain through playing the game normally. Now you could argue that the challenges of getting through Sunwell and gearing up there are so arduous that it's virtually pay-2-win or indistinguishable, though again it depends on what you consider "winning." If you think the only point of the game is to get big numbers on your character sheet then yeah, it's pay-2-win. If you think overcoming the challenges of raids is the point of the game then it isn't, in fact it's pay-2-skip which makes it really pointless. If you don't care about raiding or getting 1337 gear then it's a complete non-issue.

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Interesting, so are you saying that when it released the TBC expansion was a pay-2-win mechanic as without putting down the cash players couldn't advance beyond 60 which gave a huge advantage.

So once again, by your logic, WoW is p2w. Because there is absolutely nothing in the game that allows you to skip 58 levels of content. You have to pay real money to do that, therefore it's p2w.

[Dhrizzle]

So once again, by your logic, WoW is p2w. Because there is absolutely nothing in the game that allows you to skip 58 levels of content. You have to pay real money to do that, therefore it's p2w.

Skipping levels isn't winning. By your definition winning is gaining "player power" and it is 100% possible to gain just as much player power through normal gameplay as you gain through paying. You're buying convenience, not power, and not "winning."

And I'm not saying WoW is 0% pay-2-win. I've already said that cash-only mounts are pay-2-win for a niche sector of the player-base. The interaction between buying gold (through tokens) and using it for boosts is certainly very close to p2w for a lot of players.

[TheRevenantHero]

Skipping levels isn't winning. By your definition winning is gaining "player power" and it is 100% possible to gain just as much player power through normal gameplay as you gain through paying. You're buying convenience, not power, and not "winning."

And I'm not saying WoW is 0% pay-2-win. I've already said that cash-only mounts are pay-2-win for a niche sector of the player-base. The interaction between buying gold (through tokens) and using it for boosts is certainly very close to p2w for a lot of players.

Stop with the idiotic "winning" aspect. Because there isn't a single game where you pay to immediately win the game. P2W is mostly used in games like mobile games and MMOs. In any other game, the paid character boost is considered p2w but somehow it isn't in WoW. The vast majority of p2w in other games is purely for convenience too. So saying the paid character boost isn't p2w is utterly asinine and shows you are doing anything you can to avoid saying anything negative about WoW.

[Vash The Stampede]

Skipping levels isn't winning. By your definition winning is gaining "player power" and it is 100% possible to gain just as much player power through normal gameplay as you gain through paying. You're buying convenience, not power, and not "winning."

Leveling is giving players power but the only reason you don't see that is because the cap is now 70. Time is everything in MMO's which is why so many people are willing to spend money to skip to 58. If you wait too long then you won't get into raids and you'll be replaced. You wait too long then you fall become in PvP. Time is everything in a MMO. There's a reason why so many people want a fresh TBC server because so many people are ahead of fresh players.