Thread: "Pay to win"

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  1. #981
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Sure, for the small fee of 40€, you can purchase the "shut the fuck up pass" for this thread.
    Do I have to pay extra for the "no logical fallacies" starter pack?

  2. #982
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    You're getting off track, I think intentionally. Im talking 2010, not now. The time frame where you said these practices were different. Your link is from 2021 lol.
    I'm not off track. FUT was always like this. FUT's 2nd go around, in Fifa 10, they added premium packs that would have higher drop rates for rarer cards, as well as In Form cards like Team of the Week, which were only available for a week, and had better stats than the normal version of the card.
    Here's a link for a kind of reference on the pricing at the time (Fifa 10 Ultimate Team Review). The key difference between then and now, is that year after year, EA toyed with adding new kinds of cards/packs (Team of the Year cards & League Premium Players Packs), increased prices, and continued to tweak the odds in their favor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Can you unlock all the players in FIFA without paying any real cash? How many hours of play would it take an average player, is the time shorter for a skilled player?
    You could, in theory, unlock every player in FIFA without paying. I linked an article that showcases how nearly impossible that actually is though. That article is based on the modern release of the game, where EA has added an astronomical amount of variants for every player, but it was still highly unrealistic back in the day. EA's main argument tends to be, that there's a marketplace that you can trade/buy cards. As it is now, the estimates for filling out a best of the best dream team, it would take in the 10's of thousands horus (~22k according to the pro in the article) range of in game playing to acquire. Based on the difference in total cards, you'd likely be looking at something more like 1000-3000 back in the earlier days of FUT.

    Yeah it's mostly browser, mobile and indie based stuff that lets you buy your way to victory, pay-2-win doesn't have a strong presence in AAA or AA development.

    Old examples I can think of from the top of my head are RIFT selling extra gear slots and World of Tanks gold (armour piercing) ammo.
    Rift started straight up selling entire raid sets, legendary/artifact questline progression, upgrade components, and all sorts of gear for money. It was bad lol.

  3. #983
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Do I have to pay extra for the "no logical fallacies" starter pack?
    Sorry, those are locked up in the disney vault.

    You could attempt to trade them with a proper reply, but i assume you're fresh out of those.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-03 at 12:32 AM.

  4. #984
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Sorry, those are locked up in the disney vault.

    You could attempt at to trade them with a proper reply, but i assume you're fresh out of those.
    Lol, I mean I've already stated my opinion. And also my opinion why I don't think other people's opinions on this subject will change. And then I even followed it up with a lengthy explanation of why I felt like most of the discussion is just semantics (only to get caught up in a semantic argument about the semantics of...semantics). I think I've pretty well covered this subject about as thoroughly as I possibly can.

  5. #985
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I think I've pretty well covered this subject about as thoroughly as I possibly can.
    Yeah and i'm not going to reread a 50 page long thread in order to understand the PoV of someone that has replied to me.

  6. #986
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yeah and i'm not going to reread a 50 page long thread in order to understand the PoV of someone that has replied to me.
    It's on the last page, but hey. You do you my guy.

  7. #987
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    I'm not off track. FUT was always like this. FUT's 2nd go around, in Fifa 10, they added premium packs that would have higher drop rates for rarer cards, as well as In Form cards like Team of the Week, which were only available for a week, and had better stats than the normal version of the card.
    Here's a link for a kind of reference on the pricing at the time (Fifa 10 Ultimate Team Review). The key difference between then and now, is that year after year, EA toyed with adding new kinds of cards/packs (Team of the Year cards & League Premium Players Packs), increased prices, and continued to tweak the odds in their favor.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You could, in theory, unlock every player in FIFA without paying. I linked an article that showcases how nearly impossible that actually is though. That article is based on the modern release of the game, where EA has added an astronomical amount of variants for every player, but it was still highly unrealistic back in the day. EA's main argument tends to be, that there's a marketplace that you can trade/buy cards. As it is now, the estimates for filling out a best of the best dream team, it would take in the 10's of thousands horus (~22k according to the pro in the article) range of in game playing to acquire. Based on the difference in total cards, you'd likely be looking at something more like 1000-3000 back in the earlier days of FUT.



    Rift started straight up selling entire raid sets, legendary/artifact questline progression, upgrade components, and all sorts of gear for money. It was bad lol.
    But you didnt neeeed to buy anything to progress in the game. You could grind out every player you wanted. Buying cards was an option to bypass the grind. Just like the lvl 58 boost.

  8. #988
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    But you didnt neeeed to buy anything to progress in the game. You could grind out every player you wanted. Buying cards was an option to bypass the grind. Just like the lvl 58 boost.
    So it's a minor grind easily achievable in a timely manner with the bulk of progress taking place afterwards through normal game play? Definitely not pay-2-win then.

  9. #989
    I earn boost payment in less than an hour of working. Takes me tens of hours to get to 58 and I only care about end game content.

    So having the opportinity of boosting is great. Just makes those unemployed people mad that someone does something in less than an hour while it takes a week of nolifing for them.

  10. #990
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    But you didnt neeeed to buy anything to progress in the game. You could grind out every player you wanted. Buying cards was an option to bypass the grind. Just like the lvl 58 boost.
    I believe you're conflating someone else's argument with mine, cause I never mentioned anything about paying being the only way to progress. I've said, these kinds of games actively hinder your ability to progress. All of these games that we've discussed give means to progressing without paying a single dollar, but it's practically impossible to get where you want in any reasonable amount of time without paying (see the ~22k hours in FUT now to get a top end team).

    I understand your viewpoint. A grind exists in both situations, so it's apples to apples in your eyes, which is a totally fair opinion. However, for people like me, the finer details matter. WoW leveling is pretty much predetermined and you can go however fast you are capable of. If you want to push 16 hours a day, WoW isn't doing anything to stop you. It's not putting up roadblocks or temporarily stopping you from playing. You can level in 150 hours playing by yourself or you can level in probably 20-30 (maybe less) with your friends power leveling you.

    This is not how things work in a game like CoC or FUT. They are actively hostile to your progression. You need 50 pieces of this armor fragment to craft your next upgrade for your hero? Well, you can get it from this mission, but you can only run it 5 times a day, and doing that costs 75% of your mission energy. Oh, and there's only a 20% chance that the fragment will drop. You wanted more chances? Well, you can buy some mission refreshes for gems, that will give you 5 more attempts, but they will cost you more each time. You can do the same with your energy. Oh shoot, did you still not get what you needed? Well, there's a pack in the store that gives you 5-50 fragments for only $5. You only got 10 fragments from that pack? Well, you could spend $25 dollars on this pack that includes a 25 of a variety of components or $50 that has 50 of a variety of components, some gems, some gold, and some other consumables.

    That is why I see a fundamental difference in a game like WoW and a game like CoC and FUT. Blizz isn't cutting your legs from underneath you to gouge you on the back end. The leveling game is there, 100% open, no restrictions.

  11. #991
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    I believe you're conflating someone else's argument with mine, cause I never mentioned anything about paying being the only way to progress. I've said, these kinds of games actively hinder your ability to progress. All of these games that we've discussed give means to progressing without paying a single dollar, but it's practically impossible to get where you want in any reasonable amount of time without paying (see the ~22k hours in FUT now to get a top end team).

    I understand your viewpoint. A grind exists in both situations, so it's apples to apples in your eyes, which is a totally fair opinion. However, for people like me, the finer details matter. WoW leveling is pretty much predetermined and you can go however fast you are capable of. If you want to push 16 hours a day, WoW isn't doing anything to stop you. It's not putting up roadblocks or temporarily stopping you from playing. You can level in 150 hours playing by yourself or you can level in probably 20-30 (maybe less) with your friends power leveling you.

    This is not how things work in a game like CoC or FUT. They are actively hostile to your progression. You need 50 pieces of this armor fragment to craft your next upgrade for your hero? Well, you can get it from this mission, but you can only run it 5 times a day, and doing that costs 75% of your mission energy. Oh, and there's only a 20% chance that the fragment will drop. You wanted more chances? Well, you can buy some mission refreshes for gems, that will give you 5 more attempts, but they will cost you more each time. You can do the same with your energy. Oh shoot, did you still not get what you needed? Well, there's a pack in the store that gives you 5-50 fragments for only $5. You only got 10 fragments from that pack? Well, you could spend $25 dollars on this pack that includes a 25 of a variety of components or $50 that has 50 of a variety of components, some gems, some gold, and some other consumables.

    That is why I see a fundamental difference in a game like WoW and a game like CoC and FUT. Blizz isn't cutting your legs from underneath you to gouge you on the back end. The leveling game is there, 100% open, no restrictions.
    Youre paying real money to skip a grind. Period. They are different extents but fundamentally, its the exact same principle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    So having the opportinity of boosting is great.
    It being good, or not isnt the topic at hand.

  12. #992
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Youre paying real money to skip a grind. Period. They are different extents but fundamentally, its the exact same principle.
    Therein lies the key difference in our viewpoints, plain and simple. I've thoroughly explained what my viewpoint is and where it comes from, and I assume you see what my point is but we simply disagree at a fundamental level. That's perfectly fine for me, because I don't think either of us are right or wrong. I don't think there is really a right or wrong "definition" of P2W, if I'm being honest.

  13. #993
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    I don't think either of us are right or wrong.
    I do /6more

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