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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Hard disagree lol.

    How does the TBC leveling content, dungeon content, season one arena content and "entry level raiding" content not stand on it's own compared to phase 2? You realize that all Phase 2 content brings is two raids and an additional arena season?

    There was a big problem with TBC launch in that over 15 years ago you had T4, T5 and a T6 raid (not really on Hyjal) all in at once. You know where this caused problems? Arena and it's implications with PvE content. Getting season 1 gear (which is T4 equivalent) made the gearing
    in TBC fucking retarded when both T4 and T5 existed at the same time.

    PvE gear dominated PvP for a long ass time and isn't anything new, but part of the reason it was so bad in TBC is because the PvE content was literally 1 to 1.5 seasons ahead of the PvP gear in gear progression.

    It makes logical sense, and breaking up T4, T5, T6 and Sunwell content is the best approach IMO. This makes the PvP seasons line up properly with the raid release content, and your concerns about T4 not being able to have substance is sort of silly if I'm being honest. It's not like they have to adhere to ~6 months between seasons either, T4 could literally last 3-4 months if they wanted to, with everything else being released in a more predictable fashion that we are all accustom too. If you're worried about having excessive amount of time to farm previous content invalidating future release content, I think you're approaching the Classic version of these games wrong to begin with. They said they're going to use some of the higher difficulty versions of the instances themselves, and I think that's good enough.

    TBC is a lot more mechanically challenging than Naxxaramas was, and with most raids behaving at the bare baseline of Naxxaramas and above, there's going to be a lot more challenge for those out there. Is it anywhere close to retail? No. But if you're playing 15 year old content for challenging content, I don't know what to tell you.

    I'd have to go back and find interviews but Blizzard themselves at the time said one of their biggest regrets with some of the expansions they did (including TBC) was how front loaded TBC was, with a giant gap between Black Temple and SWP.
    Well done.

    +Internet points for you.

  2. #22
    If Blizz released SSC and TK together right at launch, people would clear through it and then spend the next 5 months whining that there's nothing to do.

    Kara + Gruul + Mag is plenty of raid content to start out with, on top of all the other stuff like heroics, attunements, dailies and rep grinds, etc.

  3. #23
    No.

    People will ignore T4 too fast, it fucks over Arena and leads to a massive content drought as Blizzard then needs to stretch T6, ZA and SWP over nearly two years.
    Pre Nerf Gruul and Magtheridon provide a reasonable challenge for the playerbase at large, no need to throw in T5.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    I guess that I don't understand how BC worked. Enlighten me. From my point of view, it looks like most players would zerg through t4 once for the attunement and begin farming t5 immediately, with rare exceptions for certain high quality items.
    I’m not going to bother looking this up and going to go fully off memory here which we all know can suck because of what we know...

    But I’m pretty sure this would completely and entirely make mags lair useless. People would literally step in there once and then actually never again.

    Especially considering for a lot of classes (specifically casters) a lot of their BiS is crafted anyway. So it would be just do attunements and be done with it. Like you said, gruuls and kara might still be ran through a couple times for some items but raids like mags? Completely forgotten about without any question.

  5. #25
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devilyaki View Post
    It wont be so have fun. Everyone creaming over tbc like it is some saving god of expansion will just get more of the same. Once again only realy way to enjoy tbc is with a time machine.
    Just like they creamed over Classic being some fantastic not nostalgia-ridden, retail-killing creation.

    And yet... it wasn't. Most raid content was blown through in less than a day, TBC isn't going to be any different, because fundamentally, people know way more now than they did then. They know where to get the best leveling gear, the best heroic content start gear, how to blast through the 'hard modes' for the attunements, etc.

    It's going to be a big ol' pile of hot mess like Classic is, with a plethora of the mouthbreathers claiming it ISNT nostalgia, whining.

    Cant wait.
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzylogic111 View Post
    Phase 2 release of tier 5 will break up the TBC experience. Tier 4 does not stand up on it's own. TBC is defined by the long winding road that was the raiding and attunement journey. It would be better to release TBC classic later and have all launch content available as it was in January 2007.

    And if anyone thinks this would obsolete tier 4, you do not understand how BC worked. Content pacing is a concept for the modern game. BC content innately paces itself.
    OP, do you even remember what state SSC and TK were in at release? They were so broken that they might as well have not been in the game at launch. Morogrim was impossible, Al'ar was impossible, Solarion was impossible, Kael'thas was impossible, and the many of the rest of the fights were untuned. The fights, at launch, are not the fights that you and I know. Indeed, Death and Taxes and Nihilum were essentially the only guilds to put any real time into those fights. They don't belong in the game.

    Additionally, Tier 4 did, in fact, stand on its own, especially coupled with how important heroic 5-mans were to progression.

    Additionally, if your complaint is about the attunement journey, then why aren't you mentioning the Tier 5 --> Tier 6 part?
    Grand Crusader Belloc <-- 6608 Endless Tank Proving Grounds score! (
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  7. #27
    Releasing T4 and T5 at the same time was a mistake. They can allow people to live in the content for a bit and not just have people brute force their way through 3 tiers 1-2weeks after the servers go up.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Releasing T4 and T5 at the same time was a mistake. They can allow people to live in the content for a bit and not just have people brute force their way through 3 tiers 1-2weeks after the servers go up.
    To be fair, releasing it at the same time at the time was not really that awful of an idea for probably 90% of people because most guilds didn't really have a chance in SSC or TK without a lot more gear. Today, even fairly average guilds probably would start clearing into tier 5 in a couple weeks

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    They already said they are doing pre-nerf bosses this time around.
    They gave an example of Mu'ru, where he would have his initial HP pool (pre-nerf) but would remove his original spell pushback that punished casters heavily (so, post-nerf).

    So, mixed bag, although i'm hoping the Mu'ru example is a very particular one and not one amongst many.

    (source -> https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...ssic-deep-dive )
    Last edited by hulkgor; 2021-02-20 at 04:56 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    They gave an example of Mu'ru, where he would have his initial HP pool (pre-nerf) but would remove his original spell pushback that punished casters heavily (so, post-nerf).

    So, mixed bag, although i'm hoping the Mu'ru example is a very particular one and not one amongst many.

    (source -> https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...ssic-deep-dive )
    It also makes me wonder if they mean bug fixes as "nerfs" because I know a lot of people have referred to bug fixes as actual nerfs. Like they think the bug was an intentional part of the difficulty. This is mainly for Kael'thas who was so buggy and overtuned no-one could kill him before patch 2.1 came out which fixed the issues. So Hyjal was completely locked out until Kael'thas was fixed.

    Although it is funny that Illidan was killed before Archimonde, even though Archimonde was the raid before black temple.
    Last edited by Volardelis; 2021-02-20 at 05:10 AM.

  11. #31
    For people worrying about T4 content becoming obsolete, I don't remember that being much of a problem back when BC first came out. Kara was pretty much evergreen due to it being the biggest way to farm Badges of Justice. Gruul and Mag might be a different story until attunements are lifted, at which point they're easily puggable. I mainly remember people skipping SSC and TK at the end because Vashj and KT were major pains in the asses.

  12. #32
    Leveling 60-70 will take a couple days, a week for the really slow folk.
    Karazhan takes 2 hours to clear.
    Gruul and Mag is 1 hour combined.
    So 3 hours of PVE content per week. Get your alts ready.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yavamar View Post
    Kara was pretty much evergreen due to it being the biggest way to farm Badges of Justice.
    BOJ in Kara came in 2.3, about a year after TBC release.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    Leveling 60-70 will take a couple days, a week for the really slow folk.
    Karazhan takes 2 hours to clear.
    Gruul and Mag is 1 hour combined.
    So 3 hours of PVE content per week. Get your alts ready.
    Are you intentionally ignoring the 15 heroic dungeons as being content? Or are you doing 'math' for months into TBC?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Are you intentionally ignoring the 15 heroic dungeons as being content?
    Yeah.
    You grind them for a few days till revered and then skip them outside of outliers like farming Eye of Quag in SP once a day.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    If Blizz released SSC and TK together right at launch, people would clear through it and then spend the next 5 months whining that there's nothing to do.

    Kara + Gruul + Mag is plenty of raid content to start out with, on top of all the other stuff like heroics, attunements, dailies and rep grinds, etc.
    Even we said the same about classic and it was true, TBC ain't gonna be that easy.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by exsanguinate View Post
    Even we said the same about classic and it was true, TBC ain't gonna be that easy.
    It will.
    The only content harder than Vanilla in TBC will be Sunwell.

  17. #37
    they shouldn't go for #somechanges, they should go for #changesthatvirtuallyeveryoneagrees on and some bipartisan shit like this

    The problem in classic was that - as expected - raid content was too easy for the educated modern player. If you allow people to completely gear themselves before opening the big raids, you'll dimish the challenge. Just let the try-hards enter SSC with blue gear ffs

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Qstall View Post
    If you allow people to completely gear themselves before opening the big raids, you'll dimish the challenge. Just let the try-hards enter SSC with blue gear ffs
    If T5 was open day 1 it would be cleared in full Naxx gear by whichever guild entered it first.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    If T5 was open day 1 it would be cleared in full Naxx gear by whichever guild entered it first.
    you got a point, gear inflation at the expansions beginning started in Wrath

    Then again, what is a Naxx-geared player supposed to do in P1? When is naxx gear replaced by TBC gear?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    Just like they creamed over Classic being some fantastic not nostalgia-ridden, retail-killing creation.

    And yet... it wasn't. Most raid content was blown through in less than a day, TBC isn't going to be any different, because fundamentally, people know way more now than they did then. They know where to get the best leveling gear, the best heroic content start gear, how to blast through the 'hard modes' for the attunements, etc.

    It's going to be a big ol' pile of hot mess like Classic is, with a plethora of the mouthbreathers claiming it ISNT nostalgia, whining.

    Cant wait.
    It will be worse with the paid transfers and boost and everything else, man it is just bad and shows it was alllllllll about the $$$. I played classic it was a fun little romp but it is dead to me now.

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