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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    It happens one step at a time and a balanced game is a better game. Too ignore it all this time while making a remaster would be incompetence on Blizzards part.
    So is WoW Classic a product of incompetence?

    It's not incompetence if it's literally what fans want and expect out of a remaster. And even if I'm aware of some obvious glaring balance issues in D2, I'd fully agree with keeping it the same. There is no guarantee that any balance fixes would go in a direction that would actually please you.

    As I said earlier, Reforged is a blatant reminder of what balance changes look like to an old game. Any changes made to an old game will always be met with mixed views unless they are intending to progress what the original game intended and expand upon those values (like Age of Empires 2). This is clearly a simple remake, and any balance issues would only complicate the system.

    I dont think having more druid builds viable is not giong to make paladins cry foul
    Then you're lacking forethought in suggesting changes and assuming everything will be okay.

    There are plenty of balance mods already out there for D2, ranging from simple to complete overhauls. Overall, none of them have ever been touted as 'successors' to D2, and there is a significant portion of the community that simply prefers the original game as is.

    And if you disagree, there are plenty of variants available to choose from.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-02-26 at 07:16 PM.

  2. #82
    The Lightbringer zEmini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Every time Blizzard does something that you want its because they are lazy and incompetent huh.

    I'm gonna take a wild guess that you dont work in HR.
    I assume you mean "Doesn't". Balance isn't something I want, balance is a major part of game development and therefore pretty much a requirement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So is WoW Classic a product of incompetence?

    It's not incompetence if it's literally what fans want and expect out of a remaster. And even if I'm aware of some obvious glaring balance issues in D2, I'd fully agree with keeping it the same. There is no guarantee that any balance fixes would go in a direction that would actually please you.

    As I said earlier, Reforged is a blatant reminder of what balance changes look like to an old game. Any changes made to an old game will always be met with mixed views unless they are intending to progress what the original game intended and expand upon those values (like Age of Empires 2). This is clearly a simple remake, and any balance issues would only complicate the system.



    Then you're lacking forethought in suggesting changes and assuming everything will be okay.

    Again, if you want the reality, just look deeper into Reforged and see how the balance changes affected the community. Everyone thought balance changes would be a good thing, it was safe to assume right? Well even the most minor changes ended up causing a lot of stress in the community, to the point where we have a divisive split in the community with many players opting to play the pre-reforged patches on private servers.

    Classic was never meant to be a a remaster. But I would still agree that bug fixes and some balacning would of made classic better. WoW Classic was a compeltely different approach.

    As for W3R, Blizzard made balance changes without enough feedback. TBH I doubt they really even read much of the feedback at the time. RTS Balance is far more delicate than simply buffing a druid. A stronger druid has no real bearing on the gameplay as a whole, where as having Ghouls Move through units when you select Chop Lumber, changing the damage type for a unit, or food cost can have true implications to the meta and builds. Different type of balance and one that is probalby the hardest to balance for any video game type in history. Even mirror match ups have balance issues in SC2

    D2 was pretty much just left as is. If development would of continued we would of seen a lot more balance changes to class skills.
    Last edited by zEmini; 2021-02-26 at 07:19 PM.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    Classic was never meant to be a a remaster. But I would still agree that bug fixes and some balacning would of made classic better. WoW Classic was a compeltely different approach.
    How does that differ from D2 Remaster taking the same approach of not touching the gameplay?

    Just because the graphics change, they have to make balance changes too? That doesn't really make sense to me.


    As for W3R, Blizzard made balance changes without enough feedback. TBH I doubt they really even read much of the feedback at the time. RTS Balance is far more delicate than simply buffing a druid. A stronger druid has no real bearing on the gameplay as a whole, where as having Ghouls Move through units when you select Chop Lumber, changing the damage type for a unit, or food cost can have true implications to the meta and builds. Different type of balance and one that is probalby the hardest to balance for any video game type in history. Even mirror match ups have balance issues in SC2
    They had plenty of feedback, they simply chose not to act on all of it and focused on what the pros told them. Which is the same case here if you're asking for balance updates. In your mind, you think that balance changes would be good because the ideal situation is they'll do the fixes that you want and make the game better. The reality is the same situation - what if they just balance stuff that you don't care about or don't think is significant OR they completely screw it up? There's a bigger chance of that happening than the Druid example you've mentioned.

    As I said, take a look at any balance mod out there. Is there any balance mod that actually satisfies what you're asking for? We can tangibly talk about something that's already released, rather than this singular fictional scenario where they buff Druid and everyone is happy about it.

    D2 was pretty much just left as is. If development would of continued we would of seen a lot more balance changes to class skills.
    Yes, made by the original team, with the wisdom, knowledge and vision that they adhered to. There's no one at Blizzard now that is able to carry that torch. Anyone doing balance today would look at it from a different perspective, applying more modern approaches to balancing the game.

    It's the same bittersweet solutions to changing Classic WoW balance. As a Druid player, I would suggest them to tweak stats or add some itemization that allowed Druids to tank better in Classic, since it was fully functional for dungeons and early MC and made completely viable in TBC, but they lacked itemization in Classic which prevented them being viable tanks. However points were made that this would actually change up how people already understood the meta, and a Tanking Druid in latter Classic WoW was simply not part of the expected formula. Warriors were expected to be the Tanks, and there were strong points to keep the meta the same. What we may consider as simple changes only remains relevant to how we play the game.

    I mean even in your example of Diablo 2 Druid buffs where you compared them to Hammerdins, you said the Paladin has many other viable end-game builds. Well yes, they are viable, so long as you have godly end-game gear. And even with that gear, it would never be able to perform as well as a Hammerdin. That's the truth behind it. So if we're talking about Druids and their end-game, they're actually better off than most Paladin builds, because many builds are end-game viable even without great end-game gear. They will never perform to the level of Hammerdin, but that's because Hammerdin is simply OP.

    We have to consider that Hammerdin is an absolute OP build, and should well be considered an exception to the rule of how Paladins *should* be played. That it's so OP ends up being the default way that we all associate Paladins to be played. So is it a matter of bringing every class up to the level of Hammerdins? Or is it that Hammerdin just needs to be nerfed, so no classes feel like they have to compare to such a godly build? These are design questions that need to be addressed, and the outcome is never simple. That is why most balance mods end up becoming overhauls, because it's understood that there are OP builds but people wouldn't simply be happy with nerfs, so instead *everything else* has to be buffed up to that same level of viability. And mods like Median XL, Path of Diablo and Project D2 do this. Yet it's clear that any attempt to bring parity with an OP build ends up with so much boosting that the game doesn't feel like Diablo 2 any more, it's a completely different game.

    There's no simple way to approach it and simply say 'buff the druid a little' because no matter how much you buff a Druid they will never be as powerful as a Hammerdin. The problem lies in the perception that any build should be comparable to a Hammerdin at all. That's the problem. You aren't looking at this from the eyes of a Diablo 2 player who understands how Diablo 2 and the various builds are played. You're looking at it as a gamer who simply expects a modern design where any class or build you choose should be viable for the end game. That's simply not how Diablo 2 is played. That is not Diablo 2.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-02-26 at 07:43 PM.

  4. #84
    The Lightbringer zEmini's Avatar
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    Too much to read I won't be replaying to all of it.

    Classic was meant to be the classic experience. As far as I know D2 Classic is not going anywhere. D2R is a remaster/remake that is getting a graphics boost and some QoL changes. More will come based on feedback such as this. Check the official forums to see the current divide. Another reason to just give us a expansion honestly.

    TBH I don't give a fuck about the druid. I rarely played in him Diablo 2. So if they dont change him enough to make him more viable in Hell mode then it really doesnt effect me at all. But I am not saying every build should be as strong as a hammerdin. The biggest issue with him is the combination of Magic damage and easy access to breaking immunities.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    I assume you mean "Doesn't". Balance isn't something I want, balance is a major part of game development and therefore pretty much a requirement.
    This isnt a game in developement. its a remastered game. If you want to be mad at balance in d2 go back 15 years and shout at them there.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    Classic was meant to be the classic experience. As far as I know D2 Classic is not going anywhere. D2R is a remaster/remake that is getting a graphics boost and some QoL changes. More will come based on feedback such as this. Check the official forums to see the current divide. Another reason to just give us a expansion honestly.
    I agree with this. I do value that there are people who want to see balance changes, and I think it's warranted. I just don't think D2R is the place to do them, and I think a potential expansion would be the best way to approach this conversation too.

    TBH I don't give a fuck about the druid. I rarely played in him Diablo 2. So if they dont change him enough to make him more viable in Hell mode then it really doesnt effect me at all. But I am not saying every build should be as strong as a hammerdin. The biggest issue with him is the combination of Magic damage and easy access to breaking immunities.
    I guess I'm just not quite sure what you have in mind for balance.

    "Having a druid or assassin compete with a hammerdin in Hell Baal runs is actually a good thing for the game."
    "The biggest issue with him is the combination of Magic damage and easy access to breaking immunities."

    Druid and Assassin would never be able to compete with a Hammerdin because a Hammerdin is ultimately an outlier that breaks the system. I don't think there's any moderate way to balance this out without out-right nerfing Hammerdins; and that just hurts the game more than helps it in any meaningful way. They could buff other classes all they want, but they'll never be as effective as a Hammerdin because the issue at the core is the immunes system, and I think that's just way too complex to tackle for a simple Remaster.

    Check the official forums to see the current divide.
    To be honest I'm not seeing any particular divide there. Granted, I haven't been there before and I'm just looking at the top 50+ or so threads and sifting through any potential balance/change talk, but for the most part there's no big divide. It's all individuals talking about what they wish to see. And granted, it's a mess of things, since you have some people complaining about the Sorceress skirt being too long or you have others wanting to add Personal Loot to the game (which I'd be thoroughly against, it's too big of a change).

    As for balance, I'm not really seeing much of a discussion there, and it seems the general tone is many people actually want to keep it the way it is and simply welcome the minor QoL changes like increased/shared stash and autoloot pickup, as well as potential others like item filters. I'm down with that.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-02-27 at 12:29 AM.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I have questions, Blizzard.
    Having modded the hell out of D2 back in the day, it's basically what killed my will to play. Being able to see outside of the aggro range broke the game, and on big high res monitors its unavoidable in the standard game until you play windowed.

    I'm sure they came up with a solution. However anything 16:9 is already too big from the original 4:3, so i'm curious.
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  8. #88
    The Lightbringer zEmini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    This isnt a game in developement. its a remastered game. If you want to be mad at balance in d2 go back 15 years and shout at them there.
    I think a lot of people were shouting back then about broken builds and rune words. I was there? Were you? Why not address these issues? Not saying it needs to happen by release. If D2R wants a future with new players investing more than a month into the game then it will need more viable builds and balance changes. These changes can come by expansion so purist can keep their game. Everyone wins.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    I think a lot of people were shouting back then about broken builds and rune words. I was there? Were you? Why not address these issues? Not saying it needs to happen by release. If D2R wants a future with new players investing more than a month into the game then it will need more viable builds and balance changes. These changes can come by expansion so purist can keep their game. Everyone wins.
    I highly doubt the devs are gonna rebalance the game specifically for D2R. A lot of sentiment I have seen initially and even now is centered on keeping D2R as close to D2 as possible; even its flaws for the most part.

    Clearly, this is a product aimed at a player base that wants to play Diablo 2 as a fundamental draw. Not necessarily D2.5, so to speak. That is not to say the game makers do not intend to find a new fanbase but this at best would still be a niche product in the current market even if "enhanced" with a lot of modern concessions. Your ceiling is only so high on a product like this really.

    Personally speaking, I am absolutely in the "touch nothing" camp of the remaster. I didn't even want updated graphics or a 3D engine; I just wanted to play D2+LOD at a resolution of modern monitors without the text being unreadable. I literally wanted nothing else added or subtracted from the game. I even want to play it the same; control scheme, method, input, frames, etc. Because I am interested in playing Diablo 2.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2021-03-01 at 05:23 PM.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    I think a lot of people were shouting back then about broken builds and rune words. I was there? Were you? Why not address these issues? Not saying it needs to happen by release. If D2R wants a future with new players investing more than a month into the game then it will need more viable builds and balance changes. These changes can come by expansion so purist can keep their game. Everyone wins.
    Because that would fundamentally change the game.

    Adding new runewords is more of an option then rebalancing classes.

    Edit:
    Not that it matters but yes i was. I was also there for d1 on consoles

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Doubt it would be couch co-op unless they implemented some split screen action, and that seems unlikely.

    They would have to sacrifice a lot to get split-screen co-op working. Since it sounds like they aren't changing the game itself, it wouldn't work like D3's style of couch co-op having all four players share one screen. D2 operates very differently and is centered around your character being at the center of your screen and all the AI and world being rendered and built around you. It was very archaic.
    yeah the 4 players sharing the screen thing for D3 worked well for me. but hell ill take what i can get hehheh
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Welp. Anyone that has read me over the years know how much I believe multiplayer is the core value add of Blizzard games. Diablo 2 had bleeding-edge multiplayer features for this time when it was released in 2000. Blizzard has continually refused to fully commit multiplayer support for many years now and its disappointing. Whenever they offer it, its on the back burner, with minimal features and design.

    So for me, when I hear of a D2 remaster, my NUMBER ONE concern is multiplayer features. If they don't focus on this stuff, D2 remaster is a waste of time. Here are the agenda items for a D2 remaster:

    1. 8 player games
    2. named games in a menu
    3. password protect option on games
    4. a full-featured lobby with toon avatars at full resolution, character data sheets, searchable stash, rune counter, trackers that tell you how many uniques / sets you've found of total possible, player inspect, chat, saved chat, etc. And lets be clear on this, the bnet friends list and realID crap is NOT ENOUGH
    5. split screen mode so you can play alongside a friend in a solo game complete with the ability to chat and click on items in their window and inspect
    6. picture-in-picture mode for 2+ players, clickable and draggable
    7. observer mode with special chat and inspect abilities
    8. enhanced helper games (such as enchantress normal difficulty games for new players)
    9. helper tags people can wear to let others know they are willing to help whomever needs it

    For me, I don't really care if the graphics are a knockout. Its ALLLLLLLLLLLLL about multiplayer tools. I will say D2R looks beyond excellent so far, but its also not really a factor for me.

    So far, I am EXTREMELY concerned about the current state of D2R. The initial announcement is like 99% about the graphics. 1% about multiplayer features and that is a very brief mention that it is 8 player games. I approach D2R with caution. It seems at the moment set up for disappointment. I have watched the official D2R preview, read the official site, watched Rhykerr and MrLlamaSC videos and there is NOTHING detailing multiplayer plans.

    I have SO many questions, and they've answered none. They've made me a big-time skeptic of this project.
    At this point, my fears are 100% justified.

    1. NO lobby for console.
    2. A half-hearted lobby with apparently broken features for PC.
    3. No tcp/ip.
    4. No support for the mod community.

    My version of D2SE / Plugy has unlimited shared stash and no tracking by Blizzard and mod support. Why would anyone really PAY to play D2R which has a small shared stash, no mod support, and pitiful to nonexistent social? The ONLY reason for D2R to exist is to offer modern, bleeding edge social play. And they screwed it up! D2R might be played a bit at launch but players will quickly return to the older version since mods will still get support. D2R will become a ghost town.

    Blizzard really sucks at making video games.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  13. #93
    1. Make runes and gems stack
    2. More stash space (think Diablo 3)
    3. Balance dead spells/builds to be usable in mid-late game.
    4. Allow /players 8 in multiplayer so we can effectively choose the difficulty like in single player.
    5. Improve potion usage, like auto filling belt and using potions available in inventory. Also allow keybind to give potion to Merc.
    6. Buff merc survival across the board.
    7. Allow keyboard/mouse interface to use the gamepad hotkey bar

    That would make the base game more enjoyable and allow some actual build diversity. After the first ladder I think they should then start adding new content, maybe new items (just not overpowered crap that completely invalidates old items, which they have done several times before). They should widen the scope and not narrow it, they have had a tendancy to add overly powerful items and allow a handful of builds to dominate massively.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  14. #94
    Weve been doing this dance for 20 years. With d3, sc2, wow xpacs, wow classic. I keep pointing out blizz needs to focus on social. People ignore my warnings. Then game is released, people are thrilled for 5 minutes, then they realize something really feels off and they dont know why. People flee and game is a wreck.

    Were going right back down that path with d2r. Blizz has declared war against the mod community but no one has noticed for the moment because of shiny graphics. But give it a couple months after release and d2r will be in the reject bin like so many other blizz offerings.

    Blizz hates its own players. Theyve expressed this in so many ways. From lashing out at streamers, to trying to redirect hate at sexual harrassers inside their own company to players who use /spit, to trying to demolish the d2 mod community by banning mods from d2r. They have nothing but contempt for us.
    Last edited by Kokolums; 2021-09-01 at 05:44 AM.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Weve been doing this dance for 20 years. With d3, sc2, wow xpacs, wow classic. I keep pointing out blizz needs to focus on social. People ignore my warnings. Then game is released, people are thrilled for 5 minutes, then they realize something really feels off and they dont know why. People flee and game is a wreck.

    Were going right back down that path with d2r. Blizz has declared war against the mod community but no one has noticed for the moment because of shiny graphics. But give it a couple months after release and d2r will be in the reject bin like so many other blizz offerings.

    Blizz hates its own players. Theyve expressed this in so many ways. From lashing out at streamers, to trying to redirect hate at sexual harrassers inside their own company to players who use /spit, to trying to demolish the d2 mod community by banning mods from d2r. They have nothing but contempt for us.
    For a right wing nutcase, you sure like to parrot about social aspects a lot. Like anyone would like to talk to you.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    For a right wing nutcase, you sure like to parrot about social aspects a lot. Like anyone would like to talk to you.
    Thats a little *too* defensive. Your posting history suggests you might work at blizzard, probably on the writing team or an author. But you took my criticisms way too personally to just be a fan. Interesting.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  17. #97
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    When bugs are fixed this will be good, at least for me.
    Not that i care about it personally but i hope for the mod support just for others.
    Also hope for extra stash tabs unlocked as a reward for actual achievements (there's only one type of achievements in d2 - lvl).
    So like + 1 extra stash tab every 2 levels past lvl 92(for example) on the highest leveled char in the season.
    Also i'd love an extra small bonus to those who have reached 99lvl, like double the shrine duration or a shining aura around the character. Mostly useless but nice stuff.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    1. Make runes and gems stack
    2. More stash space (think Diablo 3)
    3. Balance dead spells/builds to be usable in mid-late game.
    4. Allow /players 8 in multiplayer so we can effectively choose the difficulty like in single player.
    5. Improve potion usage, like auto filling belt and using potions available in inventory. Also allow keybind to give potion to Merc.
    6. Buff merc survival across the board.
    7. Allow keyboard/mouse interface to use the gamepad hotkey bar
    Pretty much agree with all of these apart from 6 (don't think it's that big a deal), and 5 would invalidate belt size if you just can take potions from your inventory. You can already give a potion to your merc by pressing SHIFT + your belt slot of choice keybinding.

    The balancing of dead spells/builds is a bit of a contested issue, but I don't see why not after the first ladder season. Some skills really are useless currently.

  19. #99
    The new gen gamers who asks for all social changes and balancing, dont really understand why people is fans of the franchise.

    In the example of Paladin builds, hammerdin is OP for general farming sure, but have fun doing übers or diablo-clone with him.
    For such purposes then other Paladin-builds are far superior.
    And this should translate into the need for a second paladin, not unlimited talent swapping.

    I think paying the proper respect to the real D2 fans is the only option.

    #nochanges some simple QoL changes is fine, but new functionality may very rapidly introduce too much *classic* changes.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    Pretty much agree with all of these apart from 6 (don't think it's that big a deal), and 5 would invalidate belt size if you just can take potions from your inventory. You can already give a potion to your merc by pressing SHIFT + your belt slot of choice keybinding.

    The balancing of dead spells/builds is a bit of a contested issue, but I don't see why not after the first ladder season. Some skills really are useless currently.
    With the gamepad it already takes potions from the inventory, so this feature is already in. Larger belt still gets you more space to work with. And with the mercenary, they can die pretty easily in Hell even if you have a perfect loadout with an Ethereal bugged armor, and Ethereal bug is no longer in the game. For normal players with crappy geared mercs they are gonna be dead constantly.

    The mercs could really use improved survival, it's really annoying to have to go back to town and res them or constantly throw full rejuvs at them to keep them alive (especially when you can't hotkey that). Not saying they should be invincible, but a little less death prone would be a big improvement to the game.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

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