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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Admittedly, though, that was the only time you could do it right from the start.
    That's my point, yes. Cata was the only time you could fly right from the start. And it turned out to be a terrible idea because it completely invalidated a majority of the ground in each zone; you could just fly over anything that wasn't a quest giver or a quest objective area.

    That's why Blizzard keeps restricting flying to the first x.1 patch in each expac, so that you cannot just ignore the ground. You have to ride around on the ground for a few months before you can start flying and skipping over everything.

  2. #302
    You go to a crap sandwich restaurant for 15 years, and every day they give you a crap sandwich.

    Why are you surprised they just served you another crap sandwich?

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    That's my point, yes. Cata was the only time you could fly right from the start. And it turned out to be a terrible idea because it completely invalidated a majority of the ground in each zone; you could just fly over anything that wasn't a quest giver or a quest objective area.

    That's why Blizzard keeps restricting flying to the first x.1 patch in each expac, so that you cannot just ignore the ground. You have to ride around on the ground for a few months before you can start flying and skipping over everything.
    Did you ever consider that people skip the ground cuz they dont find it fun?

    Seriously just let people fly and those of you who want to walk everywhere can still do that without taking flying away from everyone else.

  4. #304
    Its not a trick when they've done it for 3 expansions, and explained it from the start.

    Also, flying sucks and ruins the game. If you dont like running around the world, then why play this game?

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Storm Peaks was a zone that really did a good job of making flying a part of exploration, it just makes a bad argument as the zone right after it used flying to remove any sense of threat and make the final zone of WotLK a huge anti-climax.
    I'd say it did the opposite, it made ice crown feel so dangerous that the alliance and horde couldn't properly set foot in it, that the only way to strike it was through targeted deep strikes exploiting a weakness in icecrown's defences. The only major ground assault (before argent tourney) was completely wrecked. Even the argent tourney then had you presumably flying around to make strikes, because a proper ground assault wasn't feasible.

    Unlike other expacs were we can pretty much walk up to the big bad's gates right at the start.
    Last edited by Myradin; 2021-02-22 at 08:06 PM.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The densest thing is I was looking on my map thinking "I know there's a lift near that little house but I can't see any symbol for it."
    I’ll admit it took me way longer than it should have to realize those are elevators.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilford View Post
    How quickly most forget.
    MoP wasn't entirely limited to those two islands though. Story quests still largely used the main continent, MoP's world still stayed somewhat revelant thanks to the world bosses and farm stuff. Catch-up wasn't as efficient back then either, so doing non-island stuff was still useful for alts too.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Story arcs can be written for literaly any form of content. Raids are not the only or even necessarily the best way to present stories. The fact that they do is just more evidence that the developers are expressly priveleging one group of players. This was of course even more egregious in the past but business demands basically forced them to reconsider.
    'cos it's actually quite cool to have a raid finishing off a story arc, what sucks is not being able to participate because you don't have the time/skill/inclination, and that's a problem largely solved by LFR.

    You covered it... by arguing the developers favor one group of players over another. Well done. Maybe you should consider reading what you write first.
    They cater to all sorts of players. You could argue they favour solo/open-world players by forcing you to grind Stygia. You could argue they favour 5-man players by sticking legendaries behind Torghast or due to the quality of Mythic gear. You could argue they favour PvPers by making arenas a quick way of gearing. Or you could look at the whole and realise they're constantly trying to balance keeping all types of players happy, making them feel their playstyle is rewarding without making others feel pointless.

    Their is very little difference between removing flying and making flying useless for current content and even more difficult to obtain. Aside from theat fact I'm not sure why anybody needs to compromise with the developers, but calling it one is pathetic.
    There is an absolutely massive difference, that being that with the current system you can still fly. You can take your main out to see the sights, you can level alts and catch up with bits of content you've missed. You might always stay on the cutting edge of world content, never ever go back and never level alts but even as someone who much prefers the way content is developed with no-flying in mind I appreciate being able to play through on easy-mode when it comes to alts.

    If I want to navigate your shitty mazes on the ground I will choose to do so. Forcing my hand by effectively removing a feature is not a compromise.
    If you don't like open world content maybe don't play those parts... or are open world players too favoured with rewards so you feel forced to?

  9. #309
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Once again flying will only be unlocked for already outdated content while being unavailable in the Maw and Korthia. This is Argus all over again. Next expansion MUST have flying in from the START and it must be usable EVERYWHERE.
    "This is Argus all over again"

    Always has been. While I've enjoyed the challenge, glad they've announced I'll be able to mount up in the Maw.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    That's my point, yes. Cata was the only time you could fly right from the start. And it turned out to be a terrible idea because it completely invalidated a majority of the ground in each zone; you could just fly over anything that wasn't a quest giver or a quest objective area.

    That's why Blizzard keeps restricting flying to the first x.1 patch in each expac, so that you cannot just ignore the ground. You have to ride around on the ground for a few months before you can start flying and skipping over everything.
    Annnnd....still repeating the same wrong lessons learned from that.

    The problem isn't that players were skipping past ground content. It's that the ground content that's there is so bereft of anything of interest or value....that players don't WANT to interact with it.

    Forcing players to interact with content they aren't interested is what Pathfinder is, and is everything wrong with the current design philosophy of the open world.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    "I disagree with the argument given, so I'm going to declare it dead and disproven so I win the argument and Blizzard is wrong and bad." Am I doing it right?
    i guess you missed the part where it was explained. you've clearly missed the thousands of pages and dozens of threads that disprove this as well. you are the real mvp bro.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    Did you ever consider that people skip the ground cuz they dont find it fun?
    Maybe play a different game if you want everything to be instant gratification with no travel times. Seriously, if traveling 1-2 minutes is too much for you to handle, then you obviously do not enjoy MMORPGs and would be better off playing another game.

    There's no point in designing intricate zone geography if players are just going to fly over everything and ignore it all.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Why are you surprised at all?
    He is probably not surprised. He's a known troll who gets a rise out of pages of responses to stupid topics he invents. He does not engage in conversation, he just winds up the forum to watch it spin.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    There's no point in designing intricate zone geography if players are just going to fly over everything and ignore it all.
    There is a point...if the geography includes reasons to land, and also reasons to fly.

    The problem with your line of thinking is based on the assumption that only 2-dimensional design has any merit. What about caves? Buildings? Flying islands or fortresses. Hazards in mid-air that must be flown around, or even just giant freakin mountains, like stormpeaks.

    We have to keep in mind that in a large part the desire to fly represents a VERY real aversion to the grounded content. And thus the solution is not to force players into what they dislike, but to ask what it is about the grounded content that players want to avoid, and make better open world content based on those answers. This is something blizzard stubbornly refuses to do by pushing this idea of their "vision" trumping all feedback.

    Flight mechanics in wow ARE problematic. But mostly because of the overly-simplistic design of the grounded content. You can't just point the finger at one and say the other is fine. You have to address BOTH issues if the game is going to get better.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2021-02-23 at 02:11 AM.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    There is a point...if the geography includes reasons to land, and also reasons to fly.

    The problem with your line of thinking is based on the assumption that only 2-dimensional design has any merit. What about caves? Buildings? Flying islands or fortresses. Hazards in mid-air that must be flown around, or even just giant freakin mountains, like stormpeaks.

    We have to keep in mind that in a large part the desire to fly represents a VERY real aversion to the grounded content. And thus the solution is not to force players into what they dislike, but to ask what it is about the grounded content that players want to avoid, and make better open world content based on those answers. This is something blizzard stubbornly refuses to do by pushing this idea of their "vision" trumping all feedback.

    Flight mechanics in wow ARE problematic. But mostly because of the overly-simplistic design of the grounded content. You can't just point the finger at one and say the other is fine. You have to address BOTH issues if the game is going to get better.
    The answer on why people want to fly over stuff is they want everything in the game to be as easy and efficient as possible.

    This extends to all aspects of the game too, not just unique to flying or world content. It extends to games beyond WoW as well.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    The answer on why people want to fly over stuff is they want everything in the game to be as easy and efficient as possible.

    This extends to all aspects of the game too, not just unique to flying or world content. It extends to games beyond WoW as well.
    I see this response repeated a lot, and I really don't feel that it's all that accurate. Mostly because it completely disregards all other explanations without ever considering that they might have merit.

    People want the game to be fun. If what blizzard is offering on the ground is so NOT fun that people actively seek ways to avoid it...at what point is that a problem with the content instead of flying?

    The use of flying to bypass content is a symptom of bad content. The fact that the base mechanics of flying exacerbate that symptom doesnt mean that removing flight solves the problem.

    THAT is the very important point that gets ignored by saying "people just want things to be easy".

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I see this response repeated a lot, and I really don't feel that it's all that accurate. Mostly because it completely disregards all other explanations without ever considering that they might have merit.

    People want the game to be fun. If what blizzard is offering on the ground is so NOT fun that people actively seek ways to avoid it...at what point is that a problem with the content instead of flying?

    The use of flying to bypass content is a symptom of bad content. The fact that the base mechanics of flying exacerbate that symptom doesnt mean that removing flight solves the problem.

    THAT is the very important point that gets ignored by saying "people just want things to be easy".
    It is that simple. If flying was available in dungeons to skip to the last boss people would do it because it’s the most efficient. Does that mean dungeons are just so not fun people don’t like them?

    If you could pay 1g for a full mythic set people would. Maybe raiding just isn’t fun enough on its own that so many people would just opt to skip it?

    Part of the game is engaging with the game using all the tools available. Having to cuff a hand around your back never feels good. Like when ICC and DS had the buffs/debuffs that were “optional toggles” that nobody ever removed.

    I’m not even anti-flying, but I’m honest with myself in the reason and that is to skip as much as possible. It’s why I flew when available from TBC-now.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    It is that simple. If flying was available in dungeons to skip to the last boss people would do it because it’s the most efficient. Does that mean dungeons are just so not fun people don’t like them?

    If you could pay 1g for a full mythic set people would. Maybe raiding just isn’t fun enough on its own that so many people would just opt to skip it?

    Part of the game is engaging with the game using all the tools available. Having to cuff a hand around your back never feels good. Like when ICC and DS had the buffs/debuffs that were “optional toggles” that nobody ever removed.

    I’m not even anti-flying, but I’m honest with myself in the reason and that is to skip as much as possible. It’s why I flew when available from TBC-now.
    In a lot of ways, no, dealing with trash is not fun. That doesn't mean everything except the boss should be removed in the way that flight would do to a dungeon. But it DOES mean that Blizzard should rely less on pointless waves of trash and maybe start designing dungeons with different features and goals than just "Eradicate all enemies to zero hitpoints".

    You're using an argument of extremis. Im not saying all obstacles should be removed. I'm simply saying that flight is a symptom that reveald a deeper flaw in the nature of Blizzard's current open world design.

    Removing flight only forces players to suffer that flawed design.
    It doesn't actually improve the open world! And that's why it's a poor solution.

  19. #319
    Stood in the Fire RCA's Avatar
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    silly rabbit tricks are for kids...

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelduril View Post
    Why even play the game at all at this point. If a few minutes of running bothers you so much.

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    I very much doubt you can 'disprove' it.

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    And that's part of the issue, they need to bring pvp servers back and ditch war mode, which is a failure.
    It's actually not you just don't like that war mode is semi balanced so that you aren't doing 10 to 1 on a server like Illidan for horde or Sarg for Alliance which were "pvp servers" but so massively dominated by one faction they might as well have been pve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Blizzard: *does something they've always done*

    OP: *OMG! Tricked again!*

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    *laughs in Druid*

    also

    *laughs in hasn't done the Maw in weeks*
    They actually haven't always done it. Until WoD flying was attained at max level for gold except cata where it was available from the previous max level for a fairly cheap amount.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    But you're not. Exploring the zones alone doesn't really mean you're truly used to the zones, let alone have you experienced the story of the covenants fully. Zones are more than just travel points.

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    I mean, the Covenant campaign is not done in 9.0 tho. It's done in 9.1, when it climaxes to the Forces of Death Vs The Jailer within the Maw, especially the Sanctum of Domination. So, in a way...

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    Navigating shit in Blades Edge while flying is Hell. What are you on about? lmao
    You want to know what actually happens when I can't fly? On a non raid day I log on check if the daily is for bastion for an upgrade on hymnal which is beyond broken and if it isn't I log off and go do other stuff. I don't do any other dailies just the bastion one I do the maw weekly I don't even do the dailies anymore because it's just painful. It isn't fun and isn't good for the game the majority of people I play with are the same log on for raids and do M+ once or twice a week ignore all other content because it takes too long and isn't fun. With flight I would like knock out the dailies since the 2k gold would be worth it and that means I'm more likely to be on if someone wants to do something else. Flight leads to me staying on and actually playing the game outside of raids.

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