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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It's not one group of players imposing their playstyle on others, it's the devs having their idea of how they want the game to play and a group of players agreeing that it's better than what came before.
    The problem with that is that there are a LOT of players who are so invested in the game that they'll adopt anything Blizzard does or says, without ever actually stopping to consider the ramifications. And then due to human psychology, will be highly resistant to anything that challenges that idea.

    It keeps coming back to something I've been saying for years: That blizzard is not innovating. To such an extent that they would rather remove player agency in order to not have to deviate from their formula.

    The fact that there are players supporting that lack doesn't mean that it's a good thing.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2021-03-03 at 05:40 AM.

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    Pathfinder:
    1. Get revered with EVERYONE
    2. Explore EVERYTHING
    3. Do EVERY quest
    4. Complete multiple campaigns over multiple patches (just like BFA with 3 zones and 2 wars)
    5. Wait until the X.3 patch of the expansion until flying is no longer viable for healthy competition

    Shadowlands:
    1. Finish your Covenant campaign
    I don't. There is small difference for players, who decide to return to game, only when flying is fully unlocked. Back in old days of Pathfinder they were required to do all rep grinds anyway, so they had to resub 1-2 months earlier and do that grind, if they want to get flying ASAP. But they usually don't. And now they can wait for Renown catch-up. All other players were getting Pathfinder via "just playing the game". For them - there is no difference. It's still year of waiting vs year of waiting. It's just small QOL change. Blizzard have finally heard players, who were telling them, that artificial requirements aren't needed, if they time-gate flying anyway. It's simply BS. They just tried to make an illusion, that you somehow "earn" flying plus justifications for not removing Pathfinder in future xpack, because "other players earned it and we don't want to devalue their efforts". This change is made due to new leveling system, where flying is gated behind level 30 anyway and Pathfinder requirement is removed. Otherwise the most likely won't make this change.

    P.S.

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    They "listened" in the respect that we want to see the story, but are not interested in getting exalted with everyone and doing every little corner of the game. At least this is less strenuous. Like unlocking Nighborne with the 900 (no hyperbole) quests in Suramar versus unlocking Dark Iron Dwarves which was "finish the war campaign". I would much rather have the campaign all day every day versus the week solid of game time spent unlocking a race I never even play. 12 hours of gametime versus 50 is a big deal.
    Funny thing is ... you bring suramar as an example. We haven't had such an endgame activity since Legion. They can't ask something from you that doesn't exist.
    Now, is it good for us to not have a Suramar-like thing? The outdoor content is getting smaller and smaller with each expac, the game is getting more and more instance based (islands, wafronts, horrific visions, torghast). I'm not saying the zones are getting smaller (though..). I'm saying the quality, worthful activities that bring you OUT to the zones.

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    Funny thing is ... you bring suramar as an example. We haven't had such an endgame activity since Legion. They can't ask something from you that doesn't exist.
    Now, is it good for us to not have a Suramar-like thing? The outdoor content is getting smaller and smaller with each expac, the game is getting more and more instance based (islands, wafronts, horrific visions, torghast). I'm not saying the zones are getting smaller (though..). I'm saying the quality, worthful activities that bring you OUT to the zones.
    If you don't want to do hardcore raiding, m+ or pvp, you're shit out of luck with Ion's team in charge

  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Blizzard only make things worse via doing it. They want to squeeze game time out of players, but many players prefer to wait for flying to be unlocked instead. There is simple rule here: it's still better to have "bad" players, than no players at all. And yeah. Existence of "no flying forever" zone right from release suggests, that flying should also be available immediately. Because waiting for flying for a year to have it in completely obsoleted content isn't good compromise. Having both flying and no flying locations at the same time - is. And we had such locations in the past. Wintergrasp, Tol Barad, etc. It was perfect design and the most popular Wow xpack ever made. That's, why I call Blizzard stubborn. They just can't admit, that they're wrong.

    New content, that is also no flying forever, reminds me about MOP. And MOP was that kind of xpack, when I personally was unsubbed most of the time.
    Nope.jpg...

  6. #566
    I just miss demonic leap + goblin glider, that's all the flying i ever need. Demonic leap to arrest momentum before landing, and a soulstone in case i was close to dying

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Did they, though?

    Changing the window when flight is unlocked is a token gesture, to be sure. But the effective use of flight is still pretty worthless. Nothin in the core design of the open world is really changing.

    I will say that abandoning Pathfinder is also good...but the nature of the unlock and the core philosophy is still exactly the same: "Jump through a bunch of hoops and wait until halfway through the expansion to fly, and ONLY in zones where it's irrelevant."

    We'll see what happens in the new zones. If you can fly there, then maybe it's a step forward. But I remain HIGHLY skeptical of that.
    Yes they did.
    Before patch x.2 , now x.1
    Before several quests, achievements and reputations, now ( as far as we know) only renown. So....if that is not change...

    Ohhh again you take me wrong. I do not think these are well made zones for flying. Just saying people complaining about being tricked and it has not changed is false. It is better because its faster etc.





    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I don't disagree entirely with the point of flying over content. But the point is that the real mistake is in making content that players want to fly over in the first place, and then taking away their tools and agency in an attempt to force them into it. The fault lies with the nature of the content, not with the mechanic used to skip it. Because when flight isn't available, players use other tools to skip that content.

    And I 100% disagree with the idea that Blizzard changed anything. Since WoD the open world design has been one that ignores that flying exists. Adapting the literal 3D skybox to ALLOW flying to mechanically work after the content has been cleared is NOT the same thing as using a wholistic open world design that includes the use of flying during current content.

    Thus, only allowing flight in zones when that zone has nothing of real value is not really listening or changing anything practical. In effect, it removes flight from the current cutting edge part of the game that a progression-based MMO like WoW relies upon. "You can use it in older content" is a cop out of the highest magnitude.

    As I've said countless times: The biggest problem is with the refusal to include flight in the design of current content, combined with the refusal to address the base mechanics of how flying works. There are ways to mitigate both those issues. Delaying access to flight, locking it behind a timegate, and only allowing it in content which has already been exhausted are the weakest of those options. And we should really be expecting better from Blizzard.
    Yes players will skip the content via other uses. but it will happen less. And the those ways ( like running and cloak for night elves) have several big problems. ( like cooldowns). And its 1 way less. And the biggest way to skip content.

    And you can 100% be wrong. You say it as a mechanic has not changed. And i am not challanging that at all. You are moving goal post here. We where talking about when it released. And if they changed the speed etc about it. I have said before that i agree with you that it like many other things needs a major rework in WoW.

    And yes it does not change if the zone has less value. But who says they do not. Dialy's, WQ etc etc are still there so its still valueable for people and alts. It will make questing in certain zones a breeze.

    And i have said several times ( READ it ffs) i do agree with you on the fact that part of the content needs to be changed. Including flying.
    But i disagree that nothing has changed. you get it earlier, when its still somewhat relevant. And yes some of you want flying content from the start. And i think that is a bad idea. Both i and blizzard and others have given us reasons why. And all you want ( for the most part)is to go thruh the content faster. That is in my eyes not a valid reason. Making it more diverse with flying quests etc i agree. That would be better.

    Maybe a middle ground. when flying patches get released there will be flying content to it. So big floating pieces of lands you can fly to in the air etc.

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It's not one group of players imposing their playstyle on others, it's the devs having their idea of how they want the game to play and a group of players agreeing that it's better than what came before.
    theres players who encourage and enable this behavior from the devs by trying to justify it and defending it...

    hell theres numerous here who have advocated for the devs to impose what they want on everyone else...

    a proper solution this this problem is to simply make servers with flying enabled and servers with it disabled...
    Last edited by chaoticcrono; 2021-03-03 at 02:55 PM.

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    theres players who encourage and enable this behavior from the devs by trying to justify it and defending it...

    hell theres numerous here who have advocated for the devs to impose what they want on everyone else...

    a proper solution this this problem is to simply make servers with flying enabled and servers with it disabled...
    Problem is that most people on the against flying side are fine with it being enabled evantually and even wih less restrictions and earlier like they do now. The other side? Not so much. No compromise!!!!! Flying now immediatly forever. Fuck the other side!

    I would rather have no flying enabled, But is see why people like it and want not just in the last patch. So first patch done we have seen the world. Enable flying fine by me. Not optimal IMHO but still i see where others are coming from.

    You cannot split he server for everything people don't agree on btw. That is why there are compromises. And no i won just stay on the ground if the enable it because it is a competetive game. Flight is flavour with a time save.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Problem is that most people on the against flying side are fine with it being enabled evantually and even wih less restrictions and earlier like they do now. The other side? Not so much. No compromise!!!!! Flying now immediatly forever. Fuck the other side!

    I would rather have no flying enabled, But is see why people like it and want not just in the last patch. So first patch done we have seen the world. Enable flying fine by me. Not optimal IMHO but still i see where others are coming from.

    You cannot split he server for everything people don't agree on btw. That is why there are compromises. And no i won just stay on the ground if the enable it because it is a competetive game. Flight is flavour with a time save.
    how does the other side get fucked when you are never forced to fly?

    its not a compromise when one side loses something and the other loses NOTHING.

    if you want it to be competitive then having a server dedicated to that removes that issue without fucking over everyone else who doesnt give a shit.

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    how does the other side get fucked when you are never forced to fly?

    its not a compromise when one side loses something and the other loses NOTHING.

    if you want it to be competitive then having a server dedicated to that removes that issue without fucking over everyone else who doesnt give a shit.
    Exactly what i mean. Your side refuses to see why we will use fly even if we could ride. It was explained by numerous people in numerous threads. Not going to do it again.

    How did it someone else put it here? Running into a brick wall.

    Not using flying is like only going LFR raiding on your way to max Ilvl.

    Convenience it was it is convinient. No one says otherwise. But why fly at all? Why not let us port everywhere we want with a click on the map?

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Exactly what i mean. Your side refuses to see why we will use fly even if we could ride. It was explained by numerous people in numerous threads. Not going to do it again.

    How did it someone else put it here? Running into a brick wall.

    Not using flying is like only going LFR raiding on your way to max Ilvl.

    Convenience it was it is convinient. No one says otherwise. But why fly at all? Why not let us port everywhere we want with a click on the map?
    So you want to take away my choice because you dont want to have to make a choice yourself?

    Thats fucking absurd...

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    So you want to take away my choice because you dont want to have to make a choice yourself?

    Thats fucking absurd...
    I want the game to in a direction i think is better for the game. I don't want to force you to do anything. I like TF/WF. Why did they remove it? We could have kept it and people who don't like it could have just disentchanted the item.

    Because blizz and many player like it in another way. Blizz has the numbers. I have never met even ONE person who quti because of flying. I met people who quit because a bunch of other problems never flying.

    And now sulk away. You won't get flying before 9.1. Maybe you are lucky next expansion if you win happy for you. Sad for the game. Because those people who rush through the game in 2 month can now rush trough it in 2 weeks. You wont see people in the world ever unless you camp that WQ boss because everyone is floating 200 m above ground and zooming around in hypersonic speed.

    This thread will come up over and over again. An blizz won't budge too much because they make money by poeple playing the game. Not by poeple leaving earlier and coming back for a week two years later.
    And that is not evil or malicious of the, it is simple... well buisness.

    And i still think no fying would be better. Have a nice expansion. Or don't. Idc

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    theres players who encourage and enable this behavior from the devs by trying to justify it and defending it...

    hell theres numerous here who have advocated for the devs to impose what they want on everyone else...

    a proper solution this this problem is to simply make servers with flying enabled and servers with it disabled...
    "Encourage and enable," you mean agree with them. And flying/no-flying servers would be a terrible idea as it doesn't deal with the fact that content can be developed and paced with or without flying in mind, so if it's developed without flying in mind the fly-servers will complain there isn't enough daily content. If it's developed with flying in mind the no-fly-servers will fall behind.

    A better idea would be to have a toggle like Warmode where you can opt to fly but harvesting nodes and quest give half rewards and the emissary requires 6 world quests instead of 3.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    I want the game to in a direction i think is better for the game. I don't want to force you to do anything. I like TF/WF. Why did they remove it? We could have kept it and people who don't like it could have just disentchanted the item.

    Because blizz and many player like it in another way. Blizz has the numbers. I have never met even ONE person who quti because of flying. I met people who quit because a bunch of other problems never flying.

    And now sulk away. You won't get flying before 9.1. Maybe you are lucky next expansion if you win happy for you. Sad for the game. Because those people who rush through the game in 2 month can now rush trough it in 2 weeks. You wont see people in the world ever unless you camp that WQ boss because everyone is floating 200 m above ground and zooming around in hypersonic speed.

    This thread will come up over and over again. An blizz won't budge too much because they make money by poeple playing the game. Not by poeple leaving earlier and coming back for a week two years later.
    And that is not evil or malicious of the, it is simple... well buisness.

    And i still think no fying would be better. Have a nice expansion. Or don't. Idc
    I stopped playing in bfa... until blizzturd pull their head out of their ass I have no reason to come back.

    flying was one of many reasons I quit, the biggest reason being their mentality towards players and having no respect for my time.

    at the end of the day its their loss, I have over 10,000 other games to play. I just come here to see if they've turned things around and as long as they continue to be stubborn I'll just keep playin somethin else.

    With how much they've gutted the game I'm not sure I'll ever come back, maybe some day.

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Exactly what i mean. Your side refuses to see why we will use fly even if we could ride. It was explained by numerous people in numerous threads. Not going to do it again.

    How did it someone else put it here? Running into a brick wall.

    Not using flying is like only going LFR raiding on your way to max Ilvl.

    Convenience it was it is convinient. No one says otherwise. But why fly at all? Why not let us port everywhere we want with a click on the map?
    I think a better analogy is saying that not using flying in a flying enabled world is like Blizz only having LFR difficulty raids and telling raiders who want a Mythic level challenge to do it in quest greens.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    So you want to take away my choice because you dont want to have to make a choice yourself?

    Thats fucking absurd...
    If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled. If the game is balanced and paced around flight being enabled then not using it is an illusory choice.

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    "Encourage and enable," you mean agree with them. And flying/no-flying servers would be a terrible idea as it doesn't deal with the fact that content can be developed and paced with or without flying in mind, so if it's developed without flying in mind the fly-servers will complain there isn't enough daily content. If it's developed with flying in mind the no-fly-servers will fall behind.

    A better idea would be to have a toggle like Warmode where you can opt to fly but harvesting nodes and quest give half rewards and the emissary requires 6 world quests instead of 3.
    they dont design with flying in mind and havent since wrath... so thats a moot point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled. If the game is balanced and paced around flight being enabled then not using it is an illusory choice.
    what do you mean illusory choice?

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    they dont design with flying in mind and havent since wrath... so thats a moot point.
    They certainly did with MoP, that's why there was a massive wall of tedious dailies to get over. I'd argue that WotLK and Cata also had daily quests they expected you to tackle from a flying mount though as world content was mostly a side-activity for gold and minimal rewards they probably were less concerned. I reckon MoP when they tried to get world content part of the main progression path is when flying was really shown to be detrimental to open-world end-game but pretty much as soon as I hit 80 it was obvious that most of the dailies were less fun that the ones on Quel'danas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    they dont design with flying in mind and havent since wrath... so thats a moot point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    what do you mean illusory choice?
    If you have a game that is about progressing your character and it presents you with two choices, if one of those choices will severely slow down your character progression it is an illusion of choice because the enjoyment will be severely diminished by being kept from completing your aims.

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    They certainly did with MoP, that's why there was a massive wall of tedious dailies to get over. I'd argue that WotLK and Cata also had daily quests they expected you to tackle from a flying mount though as world content was mostly a side-activity for gold and minimal rewards they probably were less concerned. I reckon MoP when they tried to get world content part of the main progression path is when flying was really shown to be detrimental to open-world end-game but pretty much as soon as I hit 80 it was obvious that most of the dailies were less fun that the ones on Quel'danas.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If you have a game that is about progressing your character and it presents you with two choices, if one of those choices will severely slow down your character progression it is an illusion of choice because the enjoyment will be severely diminished by being kept from completing your aims.
    so because blizzturd sucks at making fun and engaging content its somehow the fault of flying? we still have the same tedious boring chores and they are worse without flying...

    as for the illusion of choice, atleast you HAVE THE FUCKING CHOICE! the rest of us are FORCED to play the slow shitty way where our enjoyment is severely diminished...

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    so because blizzturd sucks at making fun and engaging content its somehow the fault of flying? we still have the same tedious boring chores and they are worse without flying...
    But they don't suck, when I go out to do my daily emissary or covenant or whatever I have a great time. The fact that I'm checking a map, plotting a route, surveying the land and then, for some quests at least, looking at the enemies and planning the best way to engage them to complete the objectives as quickly as possible, makes the world content fun and engaging and, unlike with dailies in WotLK to MoP, more like the way questing works as you level. It's flying that made them a boring chore because it was the answer to all the questions. What's the best route? Mount up and fly in a straight line. What should I do about these mobs in my way? Fly over them. How should I engage this quest? Fly up and drop on the targets.

    as for the illusion of choice, atleast you HAVE THE FUCKING CHOICE! the rest of us are FORCED to play the slow shitty way where our enjoyment is severely diminished...
    ^.^ It wouldn't be a proper choice though, it's like telling Mythic raiders they're only going to put LFR in from now on and if they want a challenge they can use quest greens. Would that really be a proper choice?

    The only way to make a "fair" compromise would be my idea a few posts above where you can toggle "Fly Mode" like Warmode and have all your quest rewards halved and the requirements for Covenants doubled. It's not worth doing it though because, unlike with raiding and the need for LFR, there's pretty much zero barrier to completing most world content.

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