Flying tricked AGAIN

[Xires]

No one was tricked and no one is surprised. Un-clench the pearls.

This 100% ^^^^ Nobody was tricked except you...and that is only because you managed to trick yourself.

[chaoticcrono]

But they don't suck, when I go out to do my daily emissary or covenant or whatever I have a great time. The fact that I'm checking a map, plotting a route, surveying the land and then, for some quests at least, looking at the enemies and planning the best way to engage them to complete the objectives as quickly as possible, makes the world content fun and engaging and, unlike with dailies in WotLK to MoP, more like the way questing works as you level. It's flying that made them a boring chore because it was the answer to all the questions. What's the best route? Mount up and fly in a straight line. What should I do about these mobs in my way? Fly over them. How should I engage this quest? Fly up and drop on the targets.



^.^ It wouldn't be a proper choice though, it's like telling Mythic raiders they're only going to put LFR in from now on and if they want a challenge they can use quest greens. Would that really be a proper choice?

The only way to make a "fair" compromise would be my idea a few posts above where you can toggle "Fly Mode" like Warmode and have all your quest rewards halved and the requirements for Covenants doubled. It's not worth doing it though because, unlike with raiding and the need for LFR, there's pretty much zero barrier to completing most world content.

if you enjoy doing them on a ground mount why do you have to remove my ability to fly to do that? you havent actually answered the question. fun is subjective, everyone enjoys the game differently. the problem comes in when you force one subset of players to play a certain way.

saying the choice is an illusion is bullshit, a choice is a choice. you just dont want to have to make a choice.

[Dhrizzle]

if you enjoy doing them on a ground mount why do you have to remove my ability to fly to do that? you havent actually answered the question.

If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled. If the game is balanced and paced around flight being enabled then not using it is an illusory choice.

fun is subjective, everyone enjoys the game differently. the problem comes in when you force one subset of players to play a certain way.

"Forcing" someone to play a certain way is pretty much the definition of game development. If you want to play current raids you're "forced" to do it in a group. If you want the best gear you're "forced" to do harder difficulties. You're "forced" to repeat content because of RNG loot and you're "forced" to do it over an extended period because of raid lockouts.

saying the choice is an illusion is bullshit, a choice is a choice. you just dont want to have to make a choice.

No it's not bullshit, you just don't like it. Do you think it would be a proper "choice" if there was only one difficulty level of raids and people wanting more of a challenge could wear quest greens? What did you think of my idea of having a fly-mode toggle that halved quest rewards and doubled the requirements for Covenant dailies, don't you think that would be a better choice than expecting people to gimp themselves? What if flying was the norm and you could choose a no-fly mode that doubled quest rewards and halved Covenant requirements, would that feel better?

[chaoticcrono]

"Forcing" someone to play a certain way is pretty much the definition of game development. If you want to play current raids you're "forced" to do it in a group. If you want the best gear you're "forced" to do harder difficulties. You're "forced" to repeat content because of RNG loot and you're "forced" to do it over an extended period because of raid lockouts.



No it's not bullshit, you just don't like it. Do you think it would be a proper "choice" if there was only one difficulty level of raids and people wanting more of a challenge could wear quest greens? What did you think of my idea of having a fly-mode toggle that halved quest rewards and doubled the requirements for Covenant dailies, don't you think that would be a better choice than expecting people to gimp themselves? What if flying was the norm and you could choose a no-fly mode that doubled quest rewards and halved Covenant requirements, would that feel better?

a proper choice is subjective... you dont want to have to make the choice and you want that choice removed from others.

as for players wanting to make the content harder for selves, if you want to do that I dont see the problem.

if the goal is to have the most possible challenge then people who say they want that wouldn't do the exact opposite like they actually do.

maybe remove gear from the equation and make mythic entirely skill based. theyre already heading in that direction anyways as they continually remove stats and are now removing levels.

regardless you still havent answered my question bout playing the way you want without restricting others, and I think the reason you intentionally skipped it is because its reveals a major flaw in your thinking...

[SirCowdog]

If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled.

Yes, exactly! And by doing so they would be forced to innovate and iterate flight at the same time, breaking their tored, weak formula of consistently dumbing down the open world.

[Dhrizzle]

a proper choice is subjective... you dont want to have to make the choice and you want that choice removed from others.

So if one spec, or an entire class, does half the damage of another it's still a valid choice?
If all raids drop the same loot, people in harder difficulties should be happy about their choice?
If Prot Warrior wants to tank with a 2-hander there is nothing wrong with making that choice?

as for players wanting to make the content harder for selves, if you want to do that I dont see the problem.

if the goal is to have the most possible challenge then people who say they want that wouldn't do the exact opposite like they actually do.

It's not about having the most possible challenge, it's about the devs setting a certain level of challenge that isn't undermined by a single ability.

maybe remove gear from the equation and make mythic entirely skill based. theyre already heading in that direction anyways as they continually remove stats and are now removing levels.

So Mythic should be LFR run naked? Do you think Mythic raiders would be happy with that choice?

regardless you still havent answered my question bout playing the way you want without restricting others, and I think the reason you intentionally skipped it is because its reveals a major flaw in your thinking...

If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled. If the game is balanced and paced around flight being enabled then not using it is an illusory choice.

Third time I've answered the question now. How about you have a go at mine -
What did you think of my idea of having a fly-mode toggle that halved quest rewards and doubled the requirements for Covenant dailies, don't you think that would be a better choice than expecting people to gimp themselves?
What if flying was the norm and you could choose a no-fly mode that doubled quest rewards and halved Covenant requirements, would that feel better?

[Witchblade77]

Flying isn't cool. Know how I know?

If every person in every thread ever posted here about flying really thought flying was so cool, they'd be out there flying. But what are they doing? 100k gold says they're all standing around in Stormwind or Ogrimmar waiting for their next queue to pop. They don't think it's cool - they think it's easy. They're too ADD-stricken to spend the time it takes traveling around the world the designers spent so much time creating. They want the easy way out, and they throw a tantrum when they don't get it.

pay up, please. the only time I spend in Orgrimmar or Stormwind is either passing through the portal room/the island to get to the zone I actualy want a little faster or listing some shit on AH before heading back out. even if i AM waiting in queue (which is rare, cause I prefer overworld play to dungeon or raid pugs and I never pvp) I do some out in a world. either farming mats, or questing or both.

THAT is why I like flying. because it allows me to reduce the in between of the activities I enjoy and actualy enjoy activities more. too much travel = me not getting to actualy do things as much, cause my play time is NOT infinite.

[rrayy]

What agenda lmao? Read my previous post again. I'm saying they are spreading and gating content so that people will log in over a longer period of time. When you grind gear that is being reduced, you'll have to log in. When you want to unlock flying you have to log in too. But over an extended period of time because of the reduced loot and gated content which is what they want. This is not merely a claim it is common sense. Too difficult for you to comprehend?

To get flying, you only have to log in once a week for an hour until you reach 40 + what ever additional levels are required in .1. That is hardly an extended period of time.

[chaoticcrono]

So if one spec, or an entire class, does half the damage of another it's still a valid choice?
If all raids drop the same loot, people in harder difficulties should be happy about their choice?
If Prot Warrior wants to tank with a 2-hander there is nothing wrong with making that choice?

are these choices valid? yes.

I dont tell people what they should do or feel...

There used to be two handed tanking and people liked that, so no I see nothing wrong with that.

It's not about having the most possible challenge, it's about the devs setting a certain level of challenge that isn't undermined by a single ability.

not sure what youre talking about with regard to this, people will always find a way to undermine challenge. also challenge isnt cut and dry as challenging for one person may be a cake walk for someone else.

So Mythic should be LFR run naked? Do you think Mythic raiders would be happy with that choice?

Again I dont tell people what they should do... If they WANT to do that I have no issue with them trying and if they enjoy doing that then it would make sense to assume they are happy with that choice.

Third time I've answered the question now. How about you have a go at mine -
What did you think of my idea of having a fly-mode toggle that halved quest rewards and doubled the requirements for Covenant dailies, don't you think that would be a better choice than expecting people to gimp themselves?
What if flying was the norm and you could choose a no-fly mode that doubled quest rewards and halved Covenant requirements, would that feel better?

You still havn't answered my question, all you've done is ask questions... but I'll answer your question then explain the issue with your thinking.

Your question contradicts itself, as its doing exactly that. it gimps you in some way, so nothing has changed.

both of those are effectively the same thing and that's actually what blizz did with rested xp. at first it was a penalty and then they changed it to be a "bonus" because how you frame it affects how people feel about it. the mechanic never actually changed.

Now I'll try my best to explain the issue with your thinking.

you've narrowed the choice down to 2 things. (there's more choices but these 2 are the ones you've basically pointed out so I'll focus on these)

The choices are

playing less optimally but more fun

or

Playing more optimally and less fun.

because both of these choices require you to give up something you want you dont like the choice and dont want the choice.
what you want is to have the positives of both without the negatives (which is totally understandable)

Now this may come as a shock to you but you dont HAVE to play optimally. and taking away that choice from others because you dont want to have to make that choice for yourself will not solve the problem as this choice presents itself in many forms.

In fact you are the very example they talk about when they say players will optimize the fun out of the game, sadly by trying to control players devs only make this problem worse.

taking away choice does not solve the problem as its an internal issue the player has to deal with.

this choice will never go away and is not unique to one game or scenario. and removing choices will not improve things or make this choice any easier.

when you advocate for removing choice this will inevitably come back to bite you in the ass as the things YOU like and enjoy are removed as options.

in every decisive changes they've made I've always advocated for making it an option so that the most amount of people can play and enjoy the game. Like scaling for instance, I absolutely hate it. But I get that some people like and so I dont want it removed outright but simply want the option to play the game without it. ie a toggle option like war mode.

I get that you cant make EVERYONE happy, but you can make most people happy by not alienating large portions of the player base.

[Kuja]

I don't think I've been like "Damn, I wish I could fly here" even once this expansion. Except maybe in Ravendreth. I guess traveling by foot is content on it's own, like in many games where you can also fast travel.

[Bonedrewd]

Chat don't tell him that you could only use maw mounts in the maw anyways.

[Dhrizzle]

are these choices valid? yes.

I dont tell people what they should do or feel...

There used to be two handed tanking and people liked that, so no I see nothing wrong with that.

not sure what youre talking about with regard to this, people will always find a way to undermine challenge. also challenge isnt cut and dry as challenging for one person may be a cake walk for someone else.

Again I dont tell people what they should do... If they WANT to do that I have no issue with them trying and if they enjoy doing that then it would make sense to assume they are happy with that choice.

So you think it's fine for Prot warriors to choose a weapon that makes them take more damage and removes some key abilities.

You think just because people will try to find the easiest solution to a problem the devs should give everyone the easiest possible option, far outstripping class abilities for those issues.

You think high-end raiders will be happy getting the same rewards as LFR players, indeed they'll be happy if all raids but LFR are removed and they can choose ways to gimp themselves.

Just these facts alone show that you don't really understand much about WoW, game design in general or the tricky balancing act Blizz have to go through to make sure when they please one group they're not undermining the sense of accomplishment of another.

You still havn't answered my question, all you've done is ask questions...

If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled. If the game is balanced and paced around flight being enabled then not using it is an illusory choice.

Literally the fourth time I've pasted this answer, you can even click the little blue icons to see the other posts...

but I'll answer your question then explain the issue with your thinking.

Your question contradicts itself, as its doing exactly that. it gimps you in some way, so nothing has changed.

both of those are effectively the same thing and that's actually what blizz did with rested xp. at first it was a penalty and then they changed it to be a "bonus" because how you frame it affects how people feel about it. the mechanic never actually changed.

Forgetting the psychology bit as that seems to have thrown you for a loop so you forgot to answer the main part of the question, does that mean you would or wouldn't be happy if there was a "fly mode" that halved quest rewards and doubled the requirements for Covenant dailies?

Now I'll try my best to explain the issue with your thinking. You've narrowed the choice down to 2 things. (there's more choices but these 2 are the ones you've basically pointed out so I'll focus on these.) The choices are playing less optimally but more fun or playing more optimally and less fun.

Or there's choice 3 - the devs balance the game in a way that trying to find the optimal way is the most fun. Which is what restricting flight has done.

[chaoticcrono]

So you think it's fine for Prot warriors to choose a weapon that makes them take more damage and removes some key abilities.

You think just because people will try to find the easiest solution to a problem the devs should give everyone the easiest possible option, far outstripping class abilities for those issues.

You think high-end raiders will be happy getting the same rewards as LFR players, indeed they'll be happy if all raids but LFR are removed and they can choose ways to gimp themselves.

Just these facts alone show that you don't really understand much about WoW, game design in general or the tricky balancing act Blizz have to go through to make sure when they please one group they're not undermining the sense of accomplishment of another.





Literally the fourth time I've pasted this answer, you can even click the little blue icons to see the other posts...





Forgetting the psychology bit as that seems to have thrown you for a loop so you forgot to answer the main part of the question, does that mean you would or wouldn't be happy if there was a "fly mode" that halved quest rewards and doubled the requirements for Covenant dailies?



Or there's choice 3 - the devs balance the game in a way that trying to find the optimal way is the most fun. Which is what restricting flight has done.

You still haven't answered my question... do you even remember what my question was?

[SirCowdog]

THAT is why I like flying. because it allows me to reduce the in between of the activities I enjoy and actualy enjoy activities more. too much travel = me not getting to actualy do things as much, cause my play time is NOT infinite.

But Witchblade! Don't you know that developers poured their creative life and spirit into creating all those extra areas full of super-creative and innovative dazing trash mobs with no loot! How DARE you seek to skip their VISION and their ART!

/sarcasm off

[chaoticcrono]

But Witchblade! Don't you know that developers poured their creative life and spirit into creating all those extra areas full of super-creative and innovative dazing trash mobs with no loot! How DARE you seek to skip their VISION and their ART!

/sarcasm off

lol whats sad is the devs seem to actually think that way

[Dhrizzle]

You still haven't answered my question... do you even remember what my question was?

Yes you said,

if you enjoy doing them on a ground mount why do you have to remove my ability to fly to do that? you havent actually answered the question.

and for the fifth and now final time I will answer.

If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled. If the game is balanced and paced around flight being enabled then not using it is an illusory choice.

Feel free to ignore this and not bother answering my questions, I'll pay your future posts the same courtesy.

[chaoticcrono]

Yes you said,



and for the fifth and now final time I will answer.



Feel free to ignore this and not bother answering my questions, I'll pay your future posts the same courtesy.

that's not an answer though because it doesn't explain why you cant make the choice without removing the choice from others.

saying the choice is illusory is your opinion and doesn't actually make the choice not a choice.

[Mechagnome]

I think you're putting to much emphasis on the superficial aspects of the unlock,

And I feel as though you are just complaining to complain and arguing to argue. I guess opinions vary.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't.

That's some heavy hyperbole you got there.

[Bepples]

As someone who supports flying in WoW I'm fine with there being compromises in the form of unlocking after the first patch and having some max-level world content in which you can't fly (although I would prefer if you could eventually unlock flying in a place like the Maw). I understand world content can be better if experienced while grounded first. I'm not fine with it being used as a platform to phase out flying entirely as they tried to do in WoD but I don't think they're going in that direction.

[Mechagnome]

Funny thing is ... you bring suramar as an example. We haven't had such an endgame activity since Legion. They can't ask something from you that doesn't exist.
Now, is it good for us to not have a Suramar-like thing? The outdoor content is getting smaller and smaller with each expac, the game is getting more and more instance based (islands, wafronts, horrific visions, torghast). I'm not saying the zones are getting smaller (though..). I'm saying the quality, worthful activities that bring you OUT to the zones.

We had Argus after Suramar. A big, demon covered no fly zone. BFA gave us Mechagon, but handed us a chance to use Jetpacks. Timeless Isle was all albatross and goblin gliders in a tricky kinda way. Personally, I love the feel of the outdoor content, the zones, and even the flight restrictions in the end game stuff until a certain point. However, once the content is completely outdated, I feel like flight could reinvigorate those places. As for Suramar, I loved the lore and questline, but it was a LOT of work just to unlock an allied race. I mean, $15 a month and $60 per DLC should give us .... well, something.