Flying tricked AGAIN

[chaoticcrono]

If flying around a zone and ignoring the ground is "having fun" for you, you're playing the wrong game.

fun is subjective... maybe play the way you want instead of dictating to me and others how we should play.

[WowIsDead64]

Major problem - is that Blizzard try to bring 2D elements to their game, while it's actually 3D. Ok, Hollow Knight has secrets, navigation puzzles and jump puzzles. But this game is... 2D. And it has 2D map. Everything works properly there. But Wow is 3D game and things like jump and navigation puzzles just don't work properly. Because you have several 2D layers, that are way too hard to navigate with 2D map. Plus Wow game mechanics are too ugly for 3D platformer. It's actually 2D or pseudo-3D game, because you either can or can't pass some obstacle. I.e. if incline is <X degrees - you can't climb on it. If it's >X degrees - you can't. As simple, as that. Do you know, how it looks like?

You can't catch on edge and bring yourself up. So all that jump/navigation puzzles are just nominal. They exist only to say "they exist". They just don't work properly.

And as Wow is actually pseudo-3D game, you don't lose anything, if you use flying, i.e. avoid all that pseudo-obstacles.

[Dhrizzle]

Major problem - is that Blizzard try to bring 2D elements to their game, while it's actually 3D. Ok, Hollow Knight has secrets, navigation puzzles and jump puzzles. But this game is... 2D. And it has 2D map. Everything works properly there. But Wow is 3D game and things like jump and navigation puzzles just don't work properly. Because you have several 2D layers, that are way too hard to navigate with 2D map. Plus Wow game mechanics are too ugly for 3D platformer. It's actually 2D or pseudo-3D game, because you either can or can't pass some obstacle. I.e. if incline is <X degrees - you can't climb on it. If it's >X degrees - you can't. As simple, as that. Do you know, how it looks like?
<snip>
You can't catch on edge and bring yourself up. So all that jump/navigation puzzles are just nominal. They exist only to say "they exist". They just don't work properly.

And as Wow is actually pseudo-3D game, you don't lose anything, if you use flying, i.e. avoid all that pseudo-obstacles.

WoW still works, if the place you need to get to on the 2D map is above or below you then you just have to search around for a slope or cave or something. It's not always perfect but usually it doesn't take long to find where you need to go, although sometimes you may get lost and have to learn the route through repetition. For me (in WoW) the absolute gold standard was WoD and the treasure chest collecting though some parts of Gorgrond were a bit crowded for caves and that sometimes got a bit tiresome.

[WowIsDead64]

WoW still works, if the place you need to get to on the 2D map is above or below you then you just have to search around for a slope or cave or something. It's not always perfect but usually it doesn't take long to find where you need to go, although sometimes you may get lost and have to learn the route through repetition. For me (in WoW) the absolute gold standard was WoD and the treasure chest collecting though some parts of Gorgrond were a bit crowded for caves and that sometimes got a bit tiresome.

Dunno why, but this process isn't interesting in Wow, while it's interesting in other games. In Wow it just feels like extra unnecessary hassle. Wow will never be like this:
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LimitedRes...tle-mobile.mp4

Overall, Wow has many activities to attract different kinds of players and have wide auditory. May be it's good. But Blizzard seem to not understand, that it's wrong to assume, that all players should do all activities at the same time. Let's say, Wow has questing, PVP and jump/navigation puzzles. May be I like all 3 activities separately. But I just don't like to mix them! Blizzard just don't understand, that player can log in to do something specific and just don't want to do something else at that moment. Just because his time is limited and he want to use it effectively to get maximum fun. And fun = something, that warms his soul. Something, he is excited to think about at that moment. Let's say I just want to do some questing. PVP and jump/navigation puzzles would simply distract me from this goal. That's why my WarMode is off. But I just can't turn that jump/navigation puzzles off. I would be able to, if I would have my "flying mount" button.

And overall I want to say, that back in old days I experimented with different kinds of content in Wow. But now I just know for sure, what I want. What I like and what I don't like. I don't like PVP in Wow. I don't like navigation/jump puzzles in Wow. I JUST DON'T LIKE THEM. And I don't want to play them. Why should I be forced to do it? I don't understand.

[SirCowdog]

But i do not think they are being stubborn. Because they did change how it worked. If they where stubborn it would still be patch x.2 and many reps and achievements. Now its ( with current info) patch x.1 and renow level xx and you get it.

Did they, though?

Changing the window when flight is unlocked is a token gesture, to be sure. But the effective use of flight is still pretty worthless. Nothin in the core design of the open world is really changing.

I will say that abandoning Pathfinder is also good...but the nature of the unlock and the core philosophy is still exactly the same: "Jump through a bunch of hoops and wait until halfway through the expansion to fly, and ONLY in zones where it's irrelevant."

We'll see what happens in the new zones. If you can fly there, then maybe it's a step forward. But I remain HIGHLY skeptical of that.

And do not think content being flown over is a weak excuse. If you make something and people ignore it , its pointless to make in the first place.

So while i agree with most points that it can and should be changed. I think the flying over content is a good...not excuse but, reason why its not done right now.
And i disagree with the notion that a lot of people seem to have that blizzard is stubborn, tricking people etc etc. They did change it. So they ARE listining to you all.

I don't disagree entirely with the point of flying over content. But the point is that the real mistake is in making content that players want to fly over in the first place, and then taking away their tools and agency in an attempt to force them into it. The fault lies with the nature of the content, not with the mechanic used to skip it. Because when flight isn't available, players use other tools to skip that content.

And I 100% disagree with the idea that Blizzard changed anything. Since WoD the open world design has been one that ignores that flying exists. Adapting the literal 3D skybox to ALLOW flying to mechanically work after the content has been cleared is NOT the same thing as using a wholistic open world design that includes the use of flying during current content.

Thus, only allowing flight in zones when that zone has nothing of real value is not really listening or changing anything practical. In effect, it removes flight from the current cutting edge part of the game that a progression-based MMO like WoW relies upon. "You can use it in older content" is a cop out of the highest magnitude.

As I've said countless times: The biggest problem is with the refusal to include flight in the design of current content, combined with the refusal to address the base mechanics of how flying works. There are ways to mitigate both those issues. Delaying access to flight, locking it behind a timegate, and only allowing it in content which has already been exhausted are the weakest of those options. And we should really be expecting better from Blizzard.

[anon5123]

fun is subjective... maybe play the way you want instead of dictating to me and others how we should play.

You're doing something completely extraneous to the rest of the game and then whining that blizzard isn't catering to you.

Cry some more.

[Demeia]

No one was tricked and no one is surprised. Un-clench the pearls.

I'm super-pro flying and I wasn't tricked or deceived. I'm only going to get salty at all if they make the renown level for flying stupid.

[Jamais]

Not gonna lie I used to struggle a little bit on Revendreth until someone in this thread pointed out the lifts are very clearly and obviously marked on the map.

You mean, after you've taken your time to study the map it became easier to navigate?

Srsly, all of SL zones are easily navigated after you get accustomed to it. The only ''densly'' populated zones are the elite ones. It takes me less then half an hour to do 5-6 wq in each zone.

The qquers about no flying here should stop kidding themselves - you want convenience, and nothing else. Nothing in a zone will ever be ''interesting'' enough in your eyes, you are just making excuses. Learn the layout, use gliders, learn to strafe.

And stop with the entitled argument ''let me play how i want'', nothing works like that.

[Dhrizzle]

Dunno why, but this process isn't interesting in Wow, while it's interesting in other games. In Wow it just feels like extra unnecessary hassle. Wow will never be like this:
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LimitedRes...tle-mobile.mp4

Overall, Wow has many activities to attract different kinds of players and have wide auditory. May be it's good. But Blizzard seem to not understand, that it's wrong to assume, that all players should do all activities at the same time. Let's say, Wow has questing, PVP and jump/navigation puzzles. May be I like all 3 activities separately. But I just don't like to mix them! Blizzard just don't understand, that player can log in to do something specific and just don't want to do something else at that moment. Just because his time is limited and he want to use it effectively to get maximum fun. And fun = something, that warms his soul. Something, he is excited to think about at that moment. Let's say I just want to do some questing. PVP and jump/navigation puzzles would simply distract me from this goal. That's why my WarMode is off. But I just can't turn that jump/navigation puzzles off. I would be able to, if I would have my "flying mount" button.

And overall I want to say, that back in old days I experimented with different kinds of content in Wow. But now I just know for sure, what I want. What I like and what I don't like. I don't like PVP in Wow. I don't like navigation/jump puzzles in Wow. I JUST DON'T LIKE THEM. And I don't want to play them. Why should I be forced to do it? I don't understand.

Making your way around the map isn't an extra part of the game, it's baked into the questing experience. It's been part of levelling in every expansion bar Cataclysm. If you just want to kill stuff for an objective you need scenarios to come back, or to play Torghast more.

[Sorrowseer]

You mean, after you've taken your time to study the map it became easier to navigate?

Srsly, all of SL zones are easily navigated after you get accustomed to it. The only ''densly'' populated zones are the elite ones. It takes me less then half an hour to do 5-6 wq in each zone.

The qquers about no flying here should stop kidding themselves - you want convenience, and nothing else. Nothing in a zone will ever be ''interesting'' enough in your eyes, you are just making excuses. Learn the layout, use gliders, learn to strafe.

And stop with the entitled argument ''let me play how i want'', nothing works like that.

Your post is rather ironic.

[Dhrizzle]

You mean, after you've taken your time to study the map it became easier to navigate?

Studying the map didn't help, I was just exceedingly dense and had a blindspot for what that symbol on the map meant. Even when someone pointed it out to me I couldn't find them myself and had to have them circled on the map in this thread. Before that I was just blundering my way around trying to use my memory which worked to a point but I got a little confused because I didn't realise there were so many.

[SirCowdog]

Making your way around the map isn't an extra part of the game, it's baked into the questing experience. It's been part of levelling in every expansion bar Cataclysm. If you just want to kill stuff for an objective you need scenarios to come back, or to play Torghast more.

And if flight eas available as soon as you dinged to the level cap, thus wouldn't even be an argument.

But that's not what happens, is it? As usual you're misrepresenting the issue to downplay the actual issue to your advantage.

[OMGTwitchTV]

I just don't get why this thread has carried on so long. We're getting flight in 9.1 with no pathfinder. Yay for us.

[lockybalboa]

People really need to stop posting stuff like this because it shows the person saying it have no idea how MAU's work. MAU's do not care how much you log in during the month. They only cared that you logged in at all.

So if people are obliged to unlock flying, they need to log in right? I don't see what you are trying to say here. That's the point of gated flying. To make the MAU numbers more spread out through out a longer period.

[WowIsDead64]

Making your way around the map isn't an extra part of the game, it's baked into the questing experience. It's been part of levelling in every expansion bar Cataclysm. If you just want to kill stuff for an objective you need scenarios to come back, or to play Torghast more.

Don't you think, that implicit goals - is bad design? It's as bad, as extra hidden objective in WQs.

Just because Blizzard can overinflate hidden difficulty of some objectives by very large value. And at the end it boils down to just two things: extra time and extra difficulty. That's why I constantly ask that question. Do we really need all that extra time consumption and extra difficulty? For example: 8.3 content was designed with flying in mind. And that meant artificially slowing players down even more to compensate flying. Like having treasures/rares with random spawns or having exceeding competition for mobs. Why our gaming session should last for some specific standard amount of time, so Blizzard have to stretch it, if it's too quick? Overall it, again, boils down to core problem of this game - lack of real content, trying to make as few content, as possible, while stretching it as much, as possible, and players, being unable to find things to do by themselves, so they only play "with gun barrel at back of their heads". Blizzard should solve that problems, instead of bandaiding them via crutches, like removal of flying and even ground mounts. Not all players can bear such artificial content stretching. I can't. Because I remember WOD, where design of content was almost perfect, i.e. had 0 content stretching. And after WOD I just can't play any artificially stretched content in a long term. Only in short term. To farm Pathfinder for example.

[Deadite]

No, it couldn't, because they already said it's tied to the campaign, not the Renown directly.

And 1-40 is only 16 weeks, with the campaign ending at the half-way point.

You mean the campaign that was linked to renown levels? We have already done it ages ago so i guess them mean the next campaign? We will have to wait for more info but given this expansion drip feeds you pretty much everything in the game i am not optimistic that we will be flying quickly.

[Dhrizzle]

<snip>

You realise the lack of "articially stretched" content in WoD was the biggest reason it was criticised, right? Until Tanaan (which was massively "artificially stretched" for the reasons you mention) people hated the fact there was very little to do and no reason to do it (and this was without flight remember.)

This is what people want from MMOs, a reason to log in for X time a day over a period of Y days or months. There may be differences of opinions as to what the values of X and Y should be, or how they should be achieved, but if you don't want "artificially stretched" content you need to look for single-player RPG where all the content is once-and-done.

[Ielenia]

I don't think combat and travel trivialization are the same. But I don't think you do either.

They're not the same, but they're certainly related, as both are removing the danger within the area. You don't have to worry about dying to raid bosses, just like you wouldn't have to worry about land units when you're flying.

I think it's especially a bit hypocritical when they also throw around those really fast ground on-use items like the fast yaks and what-not that barrel around at 400+/whatever %. Those also skip a lot of travel time and get you past a lot of grounded combat quickly, so why is flying so special when these are allowed so frequently for so many expansions - I mean hell they've been around since Mists in every expansion at this point.

The difference is, as far as I know, those "fast mounts" are limited in many ways. Some you cannot control it (cannot stop moving), are one-use only, have long cooldowns, or can only be used in a certain zone(s). Or any combination of the four.

And if they want us on the ground so much why isn't ground speed just increased to these levels so travel isn't so arduous and whatever holy ground experience has to be maintained can still be there?

Because making the ground mount speed faster also trivializes ground content (albeit not as much as flying) because you'd be blazing at such speeds that mobs won't be able to hit you once (and therefore there is no risk of being dazed).

[Relapses]

I just don't get why this thread has carried on so long. We're getting flight in 9.1 with no pathfinder. Yay for us.

For the same reason every flying thread on this forum reaches 9,000 pages: There exist a portion of the playerbase who do not like the compromise Pathfinder provides and will argue against anybody who dares infer that Blizzard is doing anything less than intentionally trolling everybody by gating the ability to fly in an expansion behind a time gated achievement. After all, when God created the Universe, shortly after he stated "let there be light" he mentioned something about flying in video games.

[WowIsDead64]

You realise the lack of "articially stretched" content in WoD was the biggest reason it was criticised, right? Until Tanaan (which was massively "artificially stretched" for the reasons you mention) people hated the fact there was very little to do and no reason to do it (and this was without flight remember.)

This is what people want from MMOs, a reason to log in for X time a day over a period of Y days or months. There may be differences of opinions as to what the values of X and Y should be, or how they should be achieved, but if you don't want "artificially stretched" content you need to look for single-player RPG where all the content is once-and-done.

WOD was bad due to other reasons. It didn't deliver, what it promised. If it would - it would be completely different xpack. For example 6.0 lacked any content outside of Garrisons. Yeah, Garrisons were good by themselves, but definitely not enough. 6.2 fixed all it's problems, but it was too late. If WOD would be 6.2 on release + at least another 2 major content patches, it would be the best xpack ever made. And if you think, that "WOD with all problems fixed" is Legion, then you're wrong. Legion had many fun things. That's, why it was popular. But it was xpack, when all problems actually started. BFA was xpack with Legion's cons, but without Legion's pros. And SL is just BFA 2.0, because none of problems actually fully fixed and 9.1 is just step back towards wrong direction.

Funny thing, but patch 6.2 - is one of the most played patches for me. After WotLK, end of Cata and end of Legion. Blizzard should think, why it happened. May be if they'd get it, it would allow them to double their subs.