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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    Thank the 'No flying' crowd. I cant imagine Blizzard ever going back to Flying in from the start. Why you thought this was ever going to be the case is one of the mysteries of the universe. Blizzard didn't trick you, you did that to yourself.
    What I don't get is why they keep listening to this rabid vocal minority that screech about everything. I bet those people are the reason the game is as bad as it has been the last few years ever since they decided to make it more like Diablo.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    So if people are obliged to unlock flying, they need to log in right? I don't see what you are trying to say here. That's the point of gated flying. To make the MAU numbers more spread out through out a longer period.
    I am saying that you are counted as an MAU whether you log on once a month or every day. So, gating flying has no real effect on it thus not a reason they are gating flying.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    What I don't get is why they keep listening to this rabid vocal minority that screech about everything. I bet those people are the reason the game is as bad as it has been the last few years ever since they decided to make it more like Diablo.
    Well, without it you wouldn't even have Pathfinder, just no flying whatsoever like the original plan in WoD. Or did you really think the anti-flying group is the only rabid vocal minority?

    Blizzard decided they didn't want flying because of how it impacted their developement process, that was never about the community.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    For the same reason every flying thread on this forum reaches 9,000 pages: There exist a portion of the playerbase who do not like the compromise Pathfinder provides and will argue against anybody who dares infer that Blizzard is doing anything less than intentionally trolling everybody by gating the ability to fly in an expansion behind a time gated achievement. After all, when God created the Universe, shortly after he stated "let there be light" he mentioned something about flying in video games.
    Just looks like every other "flying" thread minus the mentions of Pathfinder. 3 people love flying, 3 hate it, and one is always indifferent. I am amazed by the circular arguments between 7 major posters that carries a thread to hundreds of pages. We're finally getting flight without a Pathfinder. It is already FAR better than we got in WoD, Legion, or BfA.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    What I don't get is why they keep listening to this rabid vocal minority that screech about everything. I bet those people are the reason the game is as bad as it has been the last few years ever since they decided to make it more like Diablo.
    The game has changed because the world has changed. Game apps on mobile phones saw to it that gaming could be handheld and happen in minutes rather than hours. Conole games followed suit. It was only a matter of time before WoW had to bite the bullet and find a way to time gate while keeping things in short, random bursts rather than the long, drawn out adventure we all remember up through Wrath. The only people you can absolutely blame for this shift are iPhone users who purchase mini-games for their phone as far back as 2004. This was the inception of the instant gratification era for the low price of $1.99 a pop. I am kinda surprised WoW has not been more cash shop heavy the way SWTOR is.
    “Be the change you want to see in the world.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    For the same reason every flying thread on this forum reaches 9,000 pages: There exist a portion of the playerbase who do not like the compromise Pathfinder provides and will argue against anybody who dares infer that Blizzard is doing anything less than intentionally trolling everybody by gating the ability to fly in an expansion behind a time gated achievement. After all, when God created the Universe, shortly after he stated "let there be light" he mentioned something about flying in video games.
    Probably because Pathfinder isn't actually a compromise. We've been over this "9000 pages" already, but a similar portion of the playerbase feels like they have to defend Blizzard by throwing salt in people's faces every time the topic comes up. I mean, look, you literally just did it in your own post.

    The fundamental issue is that flying used to be something that was gained early in the expansion, and then was mixed in with later areas of non-flying. Blizzard changed that formula to only allowing flight when it's basically pointless to have it. That hasn't changed at all since WoD. Pathfinder isn't actually doing anything for the people who want flight in the game, and it's pretty sad that even after these years some people STILL can't understand that.

    Just because flying is in the game doesn't mean it's PART of the game. Until people get that through their head, especially Blizzard, there will always be complaints about it.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    For the same reason every flying thread on this forum reaches 9,000 pages: There exist a portion of the playerbase who do not like the compromise Pathfinder provides and will argue against anybody who dares infer that Blizzard is doing anything less than intentionally trolling everybody by gating the ability to fly in an expansion behind a time gated achievement. After all, when God created the Universe, shortly after he stated "let there be light" he mentioned something about flying in video games.
    Because its a non compromise. Pathfinder and the timing of Pathfinders release every expansion serves to make obtaining flying so gated and useless that they may as well have removed it.

    I'd also add that its odd to think that players in any way should have to "compromise" with developers. They make a product to be sold. The very idea that consumers are in position wherein evidently the concerns and desires of the developers are at odds with what consumers are asking for is fucking stupid.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-02-28 at 06:44 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I'd also add that its odd to think that players in any way should have to "compromise" with developers. They make a product to be sold. The very idea that consumers are in position wherein evidently the concerns and desires of the developers are at odds with what consumers are asking for is fucking stupid.
    No, it isn't. What is sensible or reasonable to develop and what the players want often is at odds, and the players generally ask for far more than is feasible to do within the available budget(which isn't just money, but also time, available devs etc.). There's also frequently conflicts between what players want and what is actually good for the game. And when trying to make money, giving a customer exactly what they're asking for isn't necessarily the best option for either side.

    Compromise is necessary and unavoidable, even when the devs agree with the players in theory.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, it isn't. What is sensible or reasonable to develop and what the players want often is at odds, and the players generally ask for far more than is feasible to do within the available budget(which isn't just money, but also time, available devs etc.). There's also frequently conflicts between what players want and what is actually good for the game. And when trying to make money, giving a customer exactly what they're asking for isn't necessarily the best option for either side.

    Compromise is necessary and unavoidable, even when the devs agree with the players in theory.
    Actually in reality their is no compromise. This isn't a negotiation by any means because consumers in what are relatively free markets are by under no means required to subscribe to this game. The developers are unfortunately beholden to subscribers at large or at least theoretically they should be. When people leave the game in masses and revenue declines you'd expect that unpopular decisions would be reversed or at least new direction would be taken. Actually in any other job by now people would have been fired or at least given new positions.

    This developers knows best attitude is extremely patronizing and I expect from hazikostas et al but its bizarre from the player base. I know what I find fun and I think I have a pretty good idea of what makes the game fun for my friends as well (although I wouldn't necessarily presume to speak for them). Hazikostas et al doesn't even have a clue. If you want to say that they would know better to balance something like say warrior dps relative to everybody else based on data they have. Okay ill grant that maybe (although even then that remains an issue) but that is probably quantitative measure and not a qualitative measure. Hazikostas may have the data to balance classes he doesn't have the data to tell me Pathfinder is great.

    What is actually good for the game is nebulous at best but is also evidently not in line with what will actually retain players. Somehow cost cutting is now the means by which the game will generate revenue as opposed to maintaining or growing a subscriber base. Maybe they have data that suggests they just can't keep people anymore so why bother. What an awful environment that must be to work in.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-02-28 at 07:14 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Hazikostas may have the data to balance classes he doesn't have the data to tell me Pathfinder is great.
    Well, he has data, that shows him, how much time players spend in game with and without flying. He sees, that players are more "active", when there is no flying and calls this design "successful". And he doesn't care, how players actually feel about it. This is the same reason, why it's "revenue", that is considered to be measure of success - not sub numbers.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    Did you ever consider that people skip the ground cuz they dont find it fun?

    Seriously just let people fly and those of you who want to walk everywhere can still do that without taking flying away from everyone else.
    With that argument why move in any way anywhere? Just make portals/abilities/to everything. Or better yet. Make everything instanced. Every quest everything. Just stay in the main city and instaqueue for quests.
    There will never be a game where everyone likes everything. Seriously. It is an open world game. Devaluing the open world makes the whole world completly useless when you can skip it immediatly

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Which is an issue with the gameplay in the Maw, not the lack flying.
    Maw would be halfway sweet if it had flying. Removal of the Eye mechanic would make it an actual good zone imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Devaluing the open world makes the whole world completly useless
    To many players, removing flight IS devaluing the open world.

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    when you can skip it immediatly
    Skipping something that you would not have played anyway is not devaluing. The content already had no value to begin with.

    This is a pretty common flaw with the logic I see a lot of people using in regards to the open world. They think that just because the devs put something in the game, that it automatically has intrinsic value and MUST be played. It's also the logic that the devs seem to be using as well.

    Reality check: Nobody gives a sh*t about another "Kill X" quest. Nobody wants to have their time wasted by slogging through 100 meaningles, lootless trash mobs to click a shiny on the ground that only completes a quest for a couple of gold, a crappy green loot item, or a pointless crafting mat for a pointless crafting system.

    The reason why people want to skip content is because the content is garbage. That has NOTHING to do with the method that players use to skip it.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    To many players, removing flight IS devaluing the open world.



    Skipping something that you would not have played anyway is not devaluing. The content already had no value to begin with.

    This is a pretty common flaw with the logic I see a lot of people using in regards to the open world. They think that just because the devs put something in the game, that it automatically has intrinsic value and MUST be played. It's also the logic that the devs seem to be using as well.

    Reality check: Nobody gives a sh*t about another "Kill X" quest. Nobody wants to have their time wasted by slogging through 100 meaningles, lootless trash mobs to click a shiny on the ground that only completes a quest for a couple of gold, a crappy green loot item, or a pointless crafting mat for a pointless crafting system.

    The reason why people want to skip content is because the content is garbage. That has NOTHING to do with the method that players use to skip it.
    Irony much? "nobody" is a strong world and exactly what i ment in my first post.

    The content has value when people like it. The start of the expansion is my favourite time. Seeing players meeting people in the open world. All of that is gone the second flying is available. And yes i too like flying and at a certain point is should always be introduced.

    With your and every other explanation you could just kick the open world to the curb int he first place. Because there is no use for it and traveling 2 minutes longer is such a inconviniece for you.

    Long story short: MANY people like it that way and blizzard likes it even too. It will never change unless they make a expansion with flying islands and stuff. Which people will hate for antoher wierd reason like "flying takes too long give me instaport"!!!!!!

    If you do not like quests AND open world... i am sorry but maybe play something like diàblo or path of exile?

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    To many players, removing flight IS devaluing the open world.



    Skipping something that you would not have played anyway is not devaluing. The content already had no value to begin with.

    This is a pretty common flaw with the logic I see a lot of people using in regards to the open world. They think that just because the devs put something in the game, that it automatically has intrinsic value and MUST be played. It's also the logic that the devs seem to be using as well.

    Reality check: Nobody gives a sh*t about another "Kill X" quest. Nobody wants to have their time wasted by slogging through 100 meaningles, lootless trash mobs to click a shiny on the ground that only completes a quest for a couple of gold, a crappy green loot item, or a pointless crafting mat for a pointless crafting system.

    The reason why people want to skip content is because the content is garbage. That has NOTHING to do with the method that players use to skip it.
    If their logic really worked like they thought it would then the Maw would be the best designed zone ever. The maw is awful zone and the fact that you can only at most ground mount doesn't improve the quality of that experience. You know what might though...
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    If their logic really worked like they thought it would then the Maw would be the best designed zone ever. The maw is awful zone and the fact that you can only at most ground mount doesn't improve the quality of that experience. You know what might though...
    You know what i think is a really good example? Ravendreth. That zone looks amazing, but I find it annoying, and frustrating. I don't find it immersive and fun, i find it annoying and frustrating. First time through, while leveling, it wasnt too bad. Subsequent experiences on both my main and alts has been "avoid it at all costs".

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    WOD was bad due to other reasons. It didn't deliver, what it promised. If it would - it would be completely different xpack. For example 6.0 lacked any content outside of Garrisons. Yeah, Garrisons were good by themselves, but definitely not enough. 6.2 fixed all it's problems, but it was too late. If WOD would be 6.2 on release + at least another 2 major content patches, it would be the best xpack ever made. And if you think, that "WOD with all problems fixed" is Legion, then you're wrong. Legion had many fun things. That's, why it was popular. But it was xpack, when all problems actually started. BFA was xpack with Legion's cons, but without Legion's pros. And SL is just BFA 2.0, because none of problems actually fully fixed and 9.1 is just step back towards wrong direction.

    Funny thing, but patch 6.2 - is one of the most played patches for me. After WotLK, end of Cata and end of Legion. Blizzard should think, why it happened. May be if they'd get it, it would allow them to double their subs.
    WoD had content, there were about a dozen Apexis zones put in purely for end-game content and they had corresponding invasion, but they weren't "artificially stretched" by a decent reward system so there was no point in playing them. If they'd put incentives similar to the daily quests and gear grind in 6.2 it could have been the best open world end-game content ever, certainly I enjoyed actually doing the content more than the World Quests + Emissary/Covenant thing we've had in the following few expansions.

    As for why you have 6.2 as your most played, I really have no idea. It had an extended period of no flying (beyond just getting the achievement there was a hard lock until a sub-patch,) there was huge competition for mobs and things to click, you had to go hunting for rares/treasures that may not be spawned, a group of daily quests enforced their pacing as to how long you should play each day and it was all "artificially stretched" by a grind to get loot and then upgrade it. I know why I enjoyed it so much because that's the kind of stuff I'm into but from your earlier posts it should be the absolute devil for you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    The game has changed because the world has changed. Game apps on mobile phones saw to it that gaming could be handheld and happen in minutes rather than hours. Conole games followed suit. It was only a matter of time before WoW had to bite the bullet and find a way to time gate while keeping things in short, random bursts rather than the long, drawn out adventure we all remember up through Wrath. The only people you can absolutely blame for this shift are iPhone users who purchase mini-games for their phone as far back as 2004. This was the inception of the instant gratification era for the low price of $1.99 a pop. I am kinda surprised WoW has not been more cash shop heavy the way SWTOR is.
    It probably all started with Isle of Quel'danas in TBC which was the first real bit of content where you'd turn up and within an hour or so be done for the day and have to come back again tomorrow. Then we had Wrath's easy-mode heroics which were designed to be completed during your lunch break (although probably based on the mid/late-TBC playstyle of having Pallies AoE tank for a few mages and/or 'locks to burn through heroics rapidly for the Justice Badgers.) I don't those systems were really influenced by mobile-gaming though they probably took something from multiplayer titles like LoL, though that was really a follow-up to DotA, a Warcraft mod, so the short-term gameplay of WoW was probably inspired by earlier Battle.net titles and other early internet PC gaming.

    In fact I think it's more likely that WoW (and other MMO mechanics) were influential on mobile games, though while MMOs had lockouts to keep people subbed for extended periods mobile titles decided to let you pay to get around the lockout.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    With that argument why move in any way anywhere? Just make portals/abilities/to everything. Or better yet. Make everything instanced. Every quest everything. Just stay in the main city and instaqueue for quests.
    There will never be a game where everyone likes everything. Seriously. It is an open world game. Devaluing the open world makes the whole world completly useless when you can skip it immediatly
    I'd still fight tooth-and-nail to keep actual flight paths instead of the insta-ports a lot of games opt for. Occasional teleports are fine if they come in the form of a choice (do I use this now or save it for later, is this teleport to this place quicker/better than the taxi to another place) but one of the big wow-factors of WoW when Vanilla came out was the fact you had a big, open MMO world and you could fly from top to bottom, east to west of the major continents at least. I'm always disappointed if a game offers fast travel that doesn't actually move you through the world and just drops you somewhere after a loading screen.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Irony much? "nobody" is a strong world and exactly what i ment in my first post.
    Are you really going to sit here with a straight face and tell me you PREFER another generic "Kill X" quest to something with more meaning, or even relevance to the existing story? Something that actually qualifies as an "adventure" instead of another mindless chore that has zero connection, context, or meaning to the world?

    Come off it.



    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Seeing players meeting people in the open world. All of that is gone the second flying is available.
    No. Again, you're blaming flight for a fault that is created by the content.

    People congregate and meet and mingle in areas of INTEREST. If you see people flying past something it's because they don't give a shit about that part of the content.

    Do you remember Legion invasions before that expansion launched? Crowds of people gathering and working together to fight the event....USING THEIR FLYING MOUNTS!

    Do you understand? It's not the mode of travel. It's the CONTENT that gets people to meet up and interact in the manner than you enjoy. The second that blizzard stops using 99% filler garbage, you'll start seeing people meet up and work together again.


    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    With your and every other explanation you could just kick the open world to the curb in the first place. Because there is no use for it and traveling 2 minutes longer is such a inconvenience for you.
    No..stop. Again, you're trying to create a problem where there isn't one.

    I don't hate travel. I hate being forced to travel through mazelike areas filled with meaningless trash mobs who's only reason for even existing is to daze me and slow me down. That doesn't add anything to the story or the enjoyment, because I'm not even there to fight those trash mobs between me and my objective. The trash mobs don't even do anything for me. They don't give experience. They don't drop meaninful loot. They're not worth re. They almost never drop crafting mats. And they barely even drop gold.

    So what is the point of interacting with that kind of "content"? Why should we value that over something that we actually want to do?

    Are you starting to understand here? Filler garbage is not good content. There is no value in FORCING players to deal with it time after time after time when there's no purpose it in besides padding time /played and creating artificial "engagement" times.


    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Long story short: MANY people like it that way and blizzard likes it even too. It will never change unless they make a expansion with flying islands and stuff. Which people will hate for another weird reason like "flying takes too long give me antiport"!!!!!!
    Stop focusing on the mode of travel and you'll see why the problem isn't with flying, but with the nature of the content. If people are asking for instant-ports, it's because they want to get to the parts of the game that are fun.

    Because if we take the opposite exreme to the example you're using, then ALL modes of travel other than grounded walking should be removed in favor of getting people to engage with all this super-duper-extra good content that people are passing with flight paths, portals, and summons. But you don't see anyone campaigning to remove those do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    If you do not like quests AND open world... i am sorry but maybe play something like diàblo or path of exile?
    You're still trying to create things to argue against that I never said. It's not that I don't like quests or open world. It's that I don't like pointless chores and shallow, meaningless, no-context, story-less filler quests, and open world filled with dazing trash mobs that don't serve any other purpose.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2021-03-01 at 12:15 AM.

  18. #498
    I always go full ape when flying is unlocked for alts. Level all of my 10 other previously Max capped toons. Just so nice to have 11 alts to farm certain WQs, gets a lot done.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    Thank the 'No flying' crowd. I cant imagine Blizzard ever going back to Flying in from the start. Why you thought this was ever going to be the case is one of the mysteries of the universe. Blizzard didn't trick you, you did that to yourself.
    It has nothing to do with the "No Flying" crowd. Its to cut costs at Blizzard and keep you playing longer. More time and effort went into the Wrath and Burning Crusade zones than previous zones with certain areas of Netherstorm, Icecrown, etc being designed with flying in mind. This means they have to make sure to add extra programming, and effort to geographically lock off those locations that need flying and make sure it looks good. They skipped doing this in Cataclysm and allowed you flying in those zones because flying in the old world was a feature, but it had the detrimental effect of severely reducing the time it took to get to lvl 85. In Mists they simply locked it off til you hit lvl 90 but it was account wide so alts sped through the content as well and well, they flipped the dial in the complete other direction and said NO FLYING ALL EXPANSION!

    Flying is a time saver and it allows players to play through content quickly and be able to play other games. This does not look good for activisions share holders so they design systems in place to keep you playing the game longer and longer. Reduced loot, you need to do 1 - 10 mythic + dungeons to unlock all 3 slots, Get 6500 honor in Arena / RBGs, kill all 10 Nathria bosses - The Great Vault is another way to keep you playing the game longer to compensate for that lack of loot dropping. I have grown cynical over the last 16 years of playing this game and I realize other games do all these things better and still keep millions of players playing.

    Honestly if my friends did not play WoW I'd probably hang up my warglaives and retire.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Stabbyfists View Post
    It has nothing to do with the "No Flying" crowd. Its to cut costs at Blizzard and keep you playing longer. More time and effort went into the Wrath and Burning Crusade zones than previous zones with certain areas of Netherstorm, Icecrown, etc being designed with flying in mind. This means they have to make sure to add extra programming, and effort to geographically lock off those locations that need flying and make sure it looks good. They skipped doing this in Cataclysm and allowed you flying in those zones because flying in the old world was a feature, but it had the detrimental effect of severely reducing the time it took to get to lvl 85. In Mists they simply locked it off til you hit lvl 90 but it was account wide so alts sped through the content as well and well, they flipped the dial in the complete other direction and said NO FLYING ALL EXPANSION!
    I'd argue that the costs of zones post-Wrath or post-Cata cost more to produce simply because they're done in higher fidelity and that's regardless of flight. Also I'd hardly think "don't make a path to this zone" constitutes a great design feat, or putting things on a floating space fortress too high to jump to.

    Flying is a time saver and it allows players to play through content quickly and be able to play other games. This does not look good for activisions share holders so they design systems in place to keep you playing the game longer and longer. Reduced loot, you need to do 1 - 10 mythic + dungeons to unlock all 3 slots, Get 6500 honor in Arena / RBGs, kill all 10 Nathria bosses - The Great Vault is another way to keep you playing the game longer to compensate for that lack of loot dropping. I have grown cynical over the last 16 years of playing this game and I realize other games do all these things better and still keep millions of players playing.

    Honestly if my friends did not play WoW I'd probably hang up my warglaives and retire.
    This kind of thing has been going on since Vanilla, it's why raids drop RNG loot and have lockouts. It's because MMO players want a reason to keep coming back, but individuals complain if the particular grind they're interested in takes too long. Look at MoP where the daily quest grind was largely considered to be too much even though you could fly to complete it, but then WoD was considered to have not enough content even though you had to tackle it from the ground. WoW has always strived to have the right balance of making people stay interested in repetitive content without making it too arduous a process or too quick to complete. That was true when they only had to care about Vivendi SA, when Vivendi bought out Activision and when Activision-Blizzard broke away to become "independent" of their parent.

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