Flying tricked AGAIN

[Depakote]

Yup I'm very gald my sub is up tomorrow, I have played this game way to long it's time to move on to something else where they actually listen to the people who play the game.

Perhaps they are listening to the people who play the game. You're not the only one that plays ya know.

[WowIsDead64]

We are getting flying with 9.1 and NO PATHFINDER, and just as you suggested, the new content, Korthia, will still be a no flying zone. Congrats. You won the argument. Now we can finally put this poor horse powder into an air tight container and bury the remains of this over beaten creature.

And what is difference? You still need to "complete whole ground content". And 2nd part of this "ground content" is still gated by almost year of waiting. At the end it's still about removing flying from current content. Rep grinds just aren't part of it this time. They're replaced by time-gated Renown. And I'm not even sure, what is worse.

Yeah, in 8.2-8.3 Blizzard tried different approach. But yeah, in 8.3 it was mostly due to rehashing two old locations. And overall it was about "can we restrict players enough for flying to not matter at all" experiment. And it was really bad. Because flying is exactly about removing this restrictions. It's useless, if content is designed so badly, that even flying can't help.

[Ringthane]

I get that flying is cool... I do.

Flying isn't cool. Know how I know?

If every person in every thread ever posted here about flying really thought flying was so cool, they'd be out there flying. But what are they doing? 100k gold says they're all standing around in Stormwind or Ogrimmar waiting for their next queue to pop. They don't think it's cool - they think it's easy. They're too ADD-stricken to spend the time it takes traveling around the world the designers spent so much time creating. They want the easy way out, and they throw a tantrum when they don't get it.

[lockybalboa]

Again, it does not matter how long you are logged in, only that you logged in at all. Your post is nothing but you making up claims to fit your agenda.

What agenda lmao? Read my previous post again. I'm saying they are spreading and gating content so that people will log in over a longer period of time. When you grind gear that is being reduced, you'll have to log in. When you want to unlock flying you have to log in too. But over an extended period of time because of the reduced loot and gated content which is what they want. This is not merely a claim it is common sense. Too difficult for you to comprehend?

[Dhrizzle]

I get that flying is cool... I do. And I get that up until WoD flight at level cap was not an issue. Obviously Blizz is changing direction again away from pathfinder. Maybe if these guys spent half as much time actually PLAYING the game instead of lurking here and complaining about it, the minute Pathfinder dropped they would already have it. Just my two cents. I'm not found of circular arguments where the losing side refuses to just acknowledge the way things are and put a legitimate complaint on the actual forums, or simply unsub and use flight as the excuse.

I'd say flight at lvl cap became an issue with MoP when they wanted to tie world content/dailies a bit tighter to progression and it showed up how dull it could be when you're just sailing over and diving on targets.

100k gold says you have MORE posts in this thread than he does. 1 year of gametime says you will STILL be in this thread long after the two of us walk out to go play the game.

I'm afraid you'll be on a loser with your first bet, I've been on a bit of a Space Marine painting binge which means it's been easier to dip in and out of threads than it is when I'm in WoW. Just a few elite models to go, then a few characters, then another 26 to build and paint, 20 more to buy and possibly a few tanks to fix that are kicking around in a drawer somewhere.

[Snufflupagus]

Flying is essentially a cheat code. Of course they only enable it for outdated content. Anything else would make even less sense than it currently does.

[SirCowdog]

I'd say flight at lvl cap became an issue with MoP when they wanted to tie world content/dailies a bit tighter to progression and it showed up how dull it could be when you're just sailing over and diving on targets..

Only dull when applied to shallow content. But instead of innovation, they regressed and restricted flight so they could use a more simple formula. As though the same tired kill x quests are somehow more valuable while slogging through dazing mobs instead of flying over them.

This is the heart of the argument that always gets obscured by claims of "people just want to skip content" or some such.

[WowIsDead64]

I guess, for Blizzard it's just a change of world scale to optimize things. For them it's as easy, as changing 2x2 into 4x1. They think, result doesn't change, when they do it. They have some played time metrics. And they're obligated to keep up to them. Dunno, where they come from. Most likely from constantly whining players, who say, that they have nothing to do, so Blizzard just increase played time, till they won't STFU. So, for them flying means making world bigger, so it would take more time to travel, like it was back in old WotLK days. And they think, that they can simply change scale. Reduce size of world and slow players down to compensate. And of course reduce development time and increase so called "interaction" between players, i.e. mostly PVP. Because, you know, it's hard to meet other players, if world is big. Much easier, if there are 100 of them doing the same WQ on 2x2 spot. As easy, as this. And we are just bad players, who ask for 310% speed, while world is already super tiny. Blizzard stop caring, only when current content obsoletes and they provide new content to replace it. That's why flying is big taboo now. Blizzard avoid talking about it, like they're 100% right and everything is set in stone forever.

Overall, I just don't like current design. And I've already explained, why. It's so called claustrophobic design, where you're literally put into virtual corridor, cave or rat maze. I don't have claustrophobia. But I still feel discomfort, when my freedom is limited like this. It's like sitting in stomatologist's chair. You can sit for hours in front of your computer, yeah. But once your freedom of movement is limited - you feel discomfort. And new design also tends to cause overcrowding, I also don't like. Especially, when it comes hand in hand with faction imbalance.

[slender]

Once again flying will only be unlocked for already outdated content while being unavailable in the Maw and Korthia. This is Argus all over again. Next expansion MUST have flying in from the START and it must be usable EVERYWHERE.

Isn't Korthia in the Maw? So it kinda makes sense you cannot fly there.

Also isn't flying released for everyone, without having to worry about pathfinder? Seems like a win.

[OMGTwitchTV]

Offering items that have no value to one party.

Is this a "compromise"? Rofl!

Actually, it's called a bet. It's when two people with opposing views wager one another as to a certain outcome. The definition of compromise is when two parties need to find a middle ground in which both may not be completely satisfied with the outcome, but one party is not at such a large deficit against the other. We see this in Shadowlands where Blizzard removed Pathfinder and makes flight available with the first large patch. I am also happy to share the definition of willfull ignorance as you have shown plenty of it in this thread simply by laughing and mocking other gamers who have legitimate points.

- - - Updated - - -

And what is difference? You still need to "complete whole ground content". And 2nd part of this "ground content" is still gated by almost year of waiting. At the end it's still about removing flying from current content. Rep grinds just aren't part of it this time. They're replaced by time-gated Renown. And I'm not even sure, what is worse.

Yeah, in 8.2-8.3 Blizzard tried different approach. But yeah, in 8.3 it was mostly due to rehashing two old locations. And overall it was about "can we restrict players enough for flying to not matter at all" experiment. And it was really bad. Because flying is exactly about removing this restrictions. It's useless, if content is designed so badly, that even flying can't help.

Pathfinder:
1. Get revered with EVERYONE
2. Explore EVERYTHING
3. Do EVERY quest
4. Complete multiple campaigns over multiple patches (just like BFA with 3 zones and 2 wars)
5. Wait until the X.3 patch of the expansion until flying is no longer viable for healthy competition

Shadowlands:
1. Finish your Covenant campaign

Now, if you cannot see "the difference", maybe your anger about pathfinder and blind rage against the devs need to be put in check or worked through. We may not get it the moment we hit 60, but at least there is no Pathfinder.

- - - Updated - - -

Flying isn't cool. Know how I know?

If every person in every thread ever posted here about flying really thought flying was so cool, they'd be out there flying. But what are they doing? 100k gold says they're all standing around in Stormwind or Ogrimmar waiting for their next queue to pop. They don't think it's cool - they think it's easy. They're too ADD-stricken to spend the time it takes traveling around the world the designers spent so much time creating. They want the easy way out, and they throw a tantrum when they don't get it.

As someone who enjoys flying, I can assure you that is not the case. The Capital City Heroes (queue poppers) may hover on a mount, but they could care less about flight unless it is to gather mats to build resources for raiding. Most players who only focus on instanced content seldom ever visit a forum, or engage in conversations like this. Flight is for us lazy casuals who are tired of slogging from one end of a zone to the other just to knock out some dailies. So needless to say I am over the MOON with the removal of Pathfinder and quite satisfied with this compromise.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd say flight at lvl cap became an issue with MoP when they wanted to tie world content/dailies a bit tighter to progression and it showed up how dull it could be when you're just sailing over and diving on targets.

I'm afraid you'll be on a loser with your first bet, I've been on a bit of a Space Marine painting binge which means it's been easier to dip in and out of threads than it is when I'm in WoW. Just a few elite models to go, then a few characters, then another 26 to build and paint, 20 more to buy and possibly a few tanks to fix that are kicking around in a drawer somewhere.

Given his history for whining and complaining about flight, I am confident he will eventually occupy 20% or more of this thread. As for your project, sounds like a blast during covid.

[Lei]

Actually, it's called a bet. It's when two people with opposing views wager one another as to a certain outcome. The definition of compromise is when two parties need to find a middle ground in which both may not be completely satisfied with the outcome, but one party is not at such a large deficit against the other. We see this in Shadowlands where Blizzard removed Pathfinder and makes flight available with the first large patch. I am also happy to share the definition of willfull ignorance as you have shown plenty of it in this thread simply by laughing and mocking other gamers who have legitimate points.

- - - Updated - - -



Pathfinder:
1. Get revered with EVERYONE
2. Explore EVERYTHING
3. Do EVERY quest
4. Complete multiple campaigns over multiple patches (just like BFA with 3 zones and 2 wars)
5. Wait until the X.3 patch of the expansion until flying is no longer viable for healthy competition

Shadowlands:
1. Finish your Covenant campaign

Now, if you cannot see "the difference", maybe your anger about pathfinder and blind rage against the devs need to be put in check or worked through. We may not get it the moment we hit 60, but at least there is no Pathfinder.

- - - Updated - - -



As someone who enjoys flying, I can assure you that is not the case. The Capital City Heroes (queue poppers) may hover on a mount, but they could care less about flight unless it is to gather mats to build resources for raiding. Most players who only focus on instanced content seldom ever visit a forum, or engage in conversations like this. Flight is for us lazy casuals who are tired of slogging from one end of a zone to the other just to knock out some dailies. So needless to say I am over the MOON with the removal of Pathfinder and quite satisfied with this compromise.

- - - Updated - - -



Given his history for whining and complaining about flight, I am confident he will eventually occupy 20% or more of this thread. As for your project, sounds like a blast during covid.

People seem to be having hard time to get why this new approach to flying can be potentionally worse than ever before.
You see yes, in WoD, Legion, BfA, you had to work harder to get flying. But in Shadowlands, we still don't know just how much they timegate it. They plan to add another 40 renown, right? If they give us flying after finishing this new 40 renown with the same progress/week as we had with launch, then it's going to be a shitshow.
You could get flying in 2-3 weeks in WoD, in Legion, in BfA, providing you pre-worked on the starter stuff, and kept up with the x.2 part. If this will not be the case with 9.1, then you essentailly trade shit for diarrhea. Remember 7.2 broken shore infamously shitty "campaign" with Khadgar? Timegate for the sake of timegate?
And then not to forget how 9.1 will come after the same amount of time after launch as 7.2 came in Legion. And people are like "yeah, flying comes earlier, flying comes cheaper!" Lolololol. No wonder the devs can feed whatever shit they want with certain players.

[OMGTwitchTV]

You could get flying in 2-3 weeks in WoD, in Legion, in BfA, providing you pre-worked on the starter stuff, and kept up with the x.2 part.

This is where you lose me. In WoD, flying wasn't even finalized OR decided on until after 6.2, and then you had every possible requirement under the sun to complete. Hell, until after Selfie cams and Twitter integrations as a "content patch", we didn't even know if flying would ever come back to WoW in any future expac. Alex Afrasaibi was explicit about hating the idea of flight negating content and making the world feel less open or dangerous when you could simply mount up, fly up, and afk safe and sound for 10 minutes while your wife asked you to take out the trash.

This is the first time since MoP we have gotten a very clear and MINIMAL set of requirements for flight. The only thing we have to complete is the "Covenant Campaign". This means regardless of Renown, or anything else, if your 9 chapters are done, then flight instantly unlocks. Just in case you need the proof:

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/top...raft-qa-recap/

Shadowlands Pathfinder only requires completing the Campaign. You won't be able to fly directly from zone to zone. The zones are not next to each other.

No exploration, no rep, no renown... no nothing. People are bitching and whining and moaning and groaning... for nothing.

[Shiekyerbooty]

I enjoy flying, and my flying mounts

I spent countless hours farming various flying mounts, some of my greatest rewards in the game were flying mounts ( ie. LifeBinder's Handmaiden for killing heroic Deathwing )

It is an insult, and a resentment building frustration that Blizzard refuses to provide flying... when it was simply part of the game for several expansions

This is stupid... just let us fly

If flying ruins levelling... then design levelling around flying... duh, just like you did for Wrath, Cata, and Mop... we were never allowed to fly until max level anyway

[SirCowdog]

Shadowlands Pathfinder only requires completing the Campaign. You won't be able to fly directly from zone to zone. The zones are not next to each other.

No exploration, no rep, no renown... no nothing. People are bitching and whining and moaning and groaning... for nothing.

Right..and Blizzard NEVER changes their mind, or obfuscates the meaning of what they said with something else, ala This is Argus

The problem is that you say you have "legitimate points", but those points have been torn apart in previous threads...sometimes YEARS ago. Lei already did it: We have no idea how much the Campaign will be time gated, or what that campaign entails. We have no idea how many zones in the future(where the lion's share of time will be spent) will not have flying at all. You act as those simply taking the name of Pathfinder changes everything, when really it's just polishing a turd with a new coat of paint.

The problem with all the "legitimate points" is that they're based on disingenuous points that don't actually address any of the concerns or desires of people who want flying. Even the point of "first major patch" doesn't have a set release date yet, and is months away, with NO guarantee of flight being usable in any content released in that patch.

People like to call this a Compromise, but in reality the players who want to enjoy flight NEVER get anything they actually want. And the fact that people like you keep pushing this compromise point is insulting and disingenuous, so I'm going to give it every little bit of mockery it deserves. You want me to argue with you respectfully? How about actually taking the time to look at things from a side other than Blizzard's.

[Lei]

This is where you lose me. In WoD, flying wasn't even finalized OR decided on until after 6.2, and then you had every possible requirement under the sun to complete. Hell, until after Selfie cams and Twitter integrations as a "content patch", we didn't even know if flying would ever come back to WoW in any future expac. Alex Afrasaibi was explicit about hating the idea of flight negating content and making the world feel less open or dangerous when you could simply mount up, fly up, and afk safe and sound for 10 minutes while your wife asked you to take out the trash.

This is the first time since MoP we have gotten a very clear and MINIMAL set of requirements for flight. The only thing we have to complete is the "Covenant Campaign". This means regardless of Renown, or anything else, if your 9 chapters are done, then flight instantly unlocks. Just in case you need the proof:

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/top...raft-qa-recap/

Shadowlands Pathfinder only requires completing the Campaign. You won't be able to fly directly from zone to zone. The zones are not next to each other.

No exploration, no rep, no renown... no nothing. People are bitching and whining and moaning and groaning... for nothing.

I was explaining the wod flying thing retrospectively. If you look back on it, as of today, you know. I remember wowhead having a WoD pathfinder requirement checker page, and 6.2 was in beta for quite some time so you could work on everything else besides the 6.2 requirements in that time, so when 6.2 dropped, you could just finish the 6.2 requirement part. Not to forget how flying itself was unlocked later in 6.2.5, 2 months later or something, sooooo yeah.

Again, your blue quote. Campaign is tied to renown right now. We still dont know if it will be the case in 9.1 but I have this feeling it will be. And yes, 9.0 campaign ended at renown 28?30? so techinaclly you probably won't need 40 renown, only 28-30. Still: TIMEGATING will take place. You completely ignored my argument about it.

[OMGTwitchTV]

Campaign is tied to renown right now.

Gonna need you to read this very carefully:

Flying is tied to the Campaign... Renown is NOT tied to the campaign.

https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=...enant-campaign

I finished my campaign when I was renown 26. I have the achievement for completing it. Even if I leave my covenant at 38 renown, which is the current CAP, I can still unlock flying the moment 9.1 drops in our laps. You have it in your head the two are tied together, and the original rumor of remown was just that, a rumor. Blizzcon set the tone and stated flight will unlock with 9.1 and the campaign completion. Not all campaigns, not Renown 40. A single covenant campaign which means to mean flight will be PER CHARACTER and not account wide. THAT is the catch, and no one is seeing it.

- - - Updated - - -

Snipped

At this point, you are neither listening nor comprehending and your willful ignorance and desire to fight is showing. Finish your campaign and your character flies... it is not that difficult. Hell, if anything, it proves that using Fates and only focusing on your covenant makes MORE sense than even doing the whole story without being penalized. You are welcome to pick someone else for your whining and bitching in this circular argument. You are obviously not here for a legitimate and serious discussion. You're here to high five those who agree with you and jam your fingers in your ears for those who don't. Good luck to you and whatever sucker continually gets sucked into your one-dimensional closed minded arguments.

[Lei]

Gonna need you to read this very carefully:

Flying is tied to the Campaign... Renown is NOT tied to the campaign.

https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=...enant-campaign

I finished my campaign when I was renown 26. I have the achievement for completing it. Even if I leave my covenant at 38 renown, which is the current CAP, I can still unlock flying the moment 9.1 drops in our laps. You have it in your head the two are tied together, and the original rumor of remown was just that, a rumor. Blizzcon set the tone and stated flight will unlock with 9.1 and the campaign completion. Not all campaigns, not Renown 40. A single covenant campaign which means to mean flight will be PER CHARACTER and not account wide. THAT is the catch, and no one is seeing it.

I can still unlock flying the moment 9.1 drops in our laps.

Wait what? You think the 9.1 flying unlock achievement will want the 9.0 campaign to be completed? It will want the NEW campaign to be completed. The 9.1 campaign. Which will probably/most likely to be timegated for weeks.

And the campaign progression is directly tied to renown, at least as of now in 9.0, as you get new campaign quests with increasing your renown. This is how they timegated it. Like what the hell are you talking about? Have you ever checked your renown interface thingy?
This thing?

[OMGTwitchTV]

It will want the NEW campaign to be completed. The 9.1 campaign. Which will probably/most likely to be timegated for weeks.

You are correct and I was mistaken. The 9.1 campaign will have to be completed. As for how long it takes, it is anyone's guess. When I am wrong I admit it. That said, there is no telling what, or if any gating will be used with 9.1 since we will never fly in Korthia anyway. So I can't imagine much new content coming to the existing zones to hold us there longer, implying the new campaign will be Korthia, and since it is one big zone, my guess would be the whole campaign shouldn't takes more than 8 hours of playtime, without knowing how much we will see at a time. It is anyone's guess at this point, but anyone who is certain about anything at this point will likely end up scrambling eggs from the same basket which I am scraping from my own face.

[Lei]

You are correct and I was mistaken. The 9.1 campaign will have to be completed. As for how long it takes, it is anyone's guess. When I am wrong I admit it. That said, there is no telling what, or if any gating will be used with 9.1 since we will never fly in Korthia anyway. So I can't imagine much new content coming to the existing zones to hold us there longer, implying the new campaign will be Korthia, and since it is one big zone, my guess would be the whole campaign shouldn't takes more than 8 hours of playtime, without knowing how much we will see at a time. It is anyone's guess at this point, but anyone who is certain about anything at this point will likely end up scrambling eggs from the same basket which I am scraping from my own face.

There was a dev interview or was it the Q&A? I forget, and what I noticed is that they talk very carefully, but this dev kind of implied this campaign will take a "couple of weeks". If it takes more than 2 weeks, then it's already slower than unlocking flying in 8.2 or 7.2 from the start of that particular patch. This is what worries me.
And seeing how the campaign is a weekly thing, if they just make a 6 part story for the campaign, that means 6 weeks to unlock flying from the very launch of 9.1. Which is about 3-4 weeks later than in 8.2. See how this can be trading shit for diarrhea?

[OMGTwitchTV]

There was a dev interview or was it the Q&A? I forget, and what I noticed is that they talk very carefully, but this dev kind of implied this campaign will take a "couple of weeks". If it takes more than 2 weeks, then it's already slower than unlocking flying in 8.2 or 7.2 from the start of that particular patch. This is what worries me.
And seeing how the campaign is a weekly thing, if they just make a 6 part story for the campaign, that means 6 weeks to unlock flying from the very launch of 9.1. Which is about 3-4 weeks later than in 8.2. See how this can be trading shit for diarrhea?

I know the one you mean. As for the new "Pathfinder", I am all about it. Fuck rep, exploration, and all of the other randomness. Let me finish the actual story and unlock this. Somewhere along the way they listened. To your earlier point, it was barely a 2 week grind in WoD once Flight was available. I can't imagine with this lesser requirement of a system that it will take longer than that. But again, none of us really have that info, nor can we completely trust what as been said at Blizzcon. After all, Stormshield is the Alliance base in WoD, not Karabor as originally announced.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=321068/...level-50-once-

Scott Johnson: What are the actual requirements for flying in Shadowlands, where can we fly, and can we fly from area to area (for example, from Ardenweald to Oribos)?

Ion Hazzikostas: Shadowlands Pathfinder, which is coming in Chains of Domination, will not require any reputations. This is different from Pathfinder achievements from past expansions, it just requires completing your full Covenant campaign and the new chapters added in Chains of Domination. Once you've done that, you have mastered the overworld of Shadowlands, restored much of the Anima, and then you can earn the ability to fly within the Shadowlands.

Now, you cannot fly directly from zone to zone. I can give you the technical reason for it, but it also matches the world we're in. These are not zones that are next to each other. When you go through that portal in Oribos, you're streaking from one area to another and have this energy rushing past you. You're actually travelling vast distances. Even if we said, "You know what? We don't care that it looks janky, we're gonna let you fly", you'd actually have to autofly for something like 30 to 40 minutes to get from one zone to the other. You probably don't want that. Use the flight paths, and the once you're in the zones, you can traverse them freely.

Scott Johnson: That is really interesting, I didn't realize there was that much. I think maybe what throws people off is the map, they bring the map and how it looks like in traditional WoW fashion. Follow-up: What about alts? So after I unlock flying, can they fly at 50 or is there still a requirement to level fully, go through the Campaigns to get, or they can just do it?

Ion Hazzikostas: Pathfinder is an account-wide achievement and so when you can fly in the Shadowlands, you - The player - Have earned the right to fly in the Shadowlands, just as prior Pathfinder achievements worked.