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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Exactly what i mean. Your side refuses to see why we will use fly even if we could ride. It was explained by numerous people in numerous threads. Not going to do it again.

    How did it someone else put it here? Running into a brick wall.

    Not using flying is like only going LFR raiding on your way to max Ilvl.

    Convenience it was it is convinient. No one says otherwise. But why fly at all? Why not let us port everywhere we want with a click on the map?
    So you want to take away my choice because you dont want to have to make a choice yourself?

    Thats fucking absurd...

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    So you want to take away my choice because you dont want to have to make a choice yourself?

    Thats fucking absurd...
    I want the game to in a direction i think is better for the game. I don't want to force you to do anything. I like TF/WF. Why did they remove it? We could have kept it and people who don't like it could have just disentchanted the item.

    Because blizz and many player like it in another way. Blizz has the numbers. I have never met even ONE person who quti because of flying. I met people who quit because a bunch of other problems never flying.

    And now sulk away. You won't get flying before 9.1. Maybe you are lucky next expansion if you win happy for you. Sad for the game. Because those people who rush through the game in 2 month can now rush trough it in 2 weeks. You wont see people in the world ever unless you camp that WQ boss because everyone is floating 200 m above ground and zooming around in hypersonic speed.

    This thread will come up over and over again. An blizz won't budge too much because they make money by poeple playing the game. Not by poeple leaving earlier and coming back for a week two years later.
    And that is not evil or malicious of the, it is simple... well buisness.

    And i still think no fying would be better. Have a nice expansion. Or don't. Idc

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    theres players who encourage and enable this behavior from the devs by trying to justify it and defending it...

    hell theres numerous here who have advocated for the devs to impose what they want on everyone else...

    a proper solution this this problem is to simply make servers with flying enabled and servers with it disabled...
    "Encourage and enable," you mean agree with them. And flying/no-flying servers would be a terrible idea as it doesn't deal with the fact that content can be developed and paced with or without flying in mind, so if it's developed without flying in mind the fly-servers will complain there isn't enough daily content. If it's developed with flying in mind the no-fly-servers will fall behind.

    A better idea would be to have a toggle like Warmode where you can opt to fly but harvesting nodes and quest give half rewards and the emissary requires 6 world quests instead of 3.

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    I want the game to in a direction i think is better for the game. I don't want to force you to do anything. I like TF/WF. Why did they remove it? We could have kept it and people who don't like it could have just disentchanted the item.

    Because blizz and many player like it in another way. Blizz has the numbers. I have never met even ONE person who quti because of flying. I met people who quit because a bunch of other problems never flying.

    And now sulk away. You won't get flying before 9.1. Maybe you are lucky next expansion if you win happy for you. Sad for the game. Because those people who rush through the game in 2 month can now rush trough it in 2 weeks. You wont see people in the world ever unless you camp that WQ boss because everyone is floating 200 m above ground and zooming around in hypersonic speed.

    This thread will come up over and over again. An blizz won't budge too much because they make money by poeple playing the game. Not by poeple leaving earlier and coming back for a week two years later.
    And that is not evil or malicious of the, it is simple... well buisness.

    And i still think no fying would be better. Have a nice expansion. Or don't. Idc
    I stopped playing in bfa... until blizzturd pull their head out of their ass I have no reason to come back.

    flying was one of many reasons I quit, the biggest reason being their mentality towards players and having no respect for my time.

    at the end of the day its their loss, I have over 10,000 other games to play. I just come here to see if they've turned things around and as long as they continue to be stubborn I'll just keep playin somethin else.

    With how much they've gutted the game I'm not sure I'll ever come back, maybe some day.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Exactly what i mean. Your side refuses to see why we will use fly even if we could ride. It was explained by numerous people in numerous threads. Not going to do it again.

    How did it someone else put it here? Running into a brick wall.

    Not using flying is like only going LFR raiding on your way to max Ilvl.

    Convenience it was it is convinient. No one says otherwise. But why fly at all? Why not let us port everywhere we want with a click on the map?
    I think a better analogy is saying that not using flying in a flying enabled world is like Blizz only having LFR difficulty raids and telling raiders who want a Mythic level challenge to do it in quest greens.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    So you want to take away my choice because you dont want to have to make a choice yourself?

    Thats fucking absurd...
    If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled. If the game is balanced and paced around flight being enabled then not using it is an illusory choice.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    "Encourage and enable," you mean agree with them. And flying/no-flying servers would be a terrible idea as it doesn't deal with the fact that content can be developed and paced with or without flying in mind, so if it's developed without flying in mind the fly-servers will complain there isn't enough daily content. If it's developed with flying in mind the no-fly-servers will fall behind.

    A better idea would be to have a toggle like Warmode where you can opt to fly but harvesting nodes and quest give half rewards and the emissary requires 6 world quests instead of 3.
    they dont design with flying in mind and havent since wrath... so thats a moot point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled. If the game is balanced and paced around flight being enabled then not using it is an illusory choice.
    what do you mean illusory choice?

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    they dont design with flying in mind and havent since wrath... so thats a moot point.
    They certainly did with MoP, that's why there was a massive wall of tedious dailies to get over. I'd argue that WotLK and Cata also had daily quests they expected you to tackle from a flying mount though as world content was mostly a side-activity for gold and minimal rewards they probably were less concerned. I reckon MoP when they tried to get world content part of the main progression path is when flying was really shown to be detrimental to open-world end-game but pretty much as soon as I hit 80 it was obvious that most of the dailies were less fun that the ones on Quel'danas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    they dont design with flying in mind and havent since wrath... so thats a moot point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    what do you mean illusory choice?
    If you have a game that is about progressing your character and it presents you with two choices, if one of those choices will severely slow down your character progression it is an illusion of choice because the enjoyment will be severely diminished by being kept from completing your aims.

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    They certainly did with MoP, that's why there was a massive wall of tedious dailies to get over. I'd argue that WotLK and Cata also had daily quests they expected you to tackle from a flying mount though as world content was mostly a side-activity for gold and minimal rewards they probably were less concerned. I reckon MoP when they tried to get world content part of the main progression path is when flying was really shown to be detrimental to open-world end-game but pretty much as soon as I hit 80 it was obvious that most of the dailies were less fun that the ones on Quel'danas.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If you have a game that is about progressing your character and it presents you with two choices, if one of those choices will severely slow down your character progression it is an illusion of choice because the enjoyment will be severely diminished by being kept from completing your aims.
    so because blizzturd sucks at making fun and engaging content its somehow the fault of flying? we still have the same tedious boring chores and they are worse without flying...

    as for the illusion of choice, atleast you HAVE THE FUCKING CHOICE! the rest of us are FORCED to play the slow shitty way where our enjoyment is severely diminished...

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    so because blizzturd sucks at making fun and engaging content its somehow the fault of flying? we still have the same tedious boring chores and they are worse without flying...
    But they don't suck, when I go out to do my daily emissary or covenant or whatever I have a great time. The fact that I'm checking a map, plotting a route, surveying the land and then, for some quests at least, looking at the enemies and planning the best way to engage them to complete the objectives as quickly as possible, makes the world content fun and engaging and, unlike with dailies in WotLK to MoP, more like the way questing works as you level. It's flying that made them a boring chore because it was the answer to all the questions. What's the best route? Mount up and fly in a straight line. What should I do about these mobs in my way? Fly over them. How should I engage this quest? Fly up and drop on the targets.

    as for the illusion of choice, atleast you HAVE THE FUCKING CHOICE! the rest of us are FORCED to play the slow shitty way where our enjoyment is severely diminished...
    ^.^ It wouldn't be a proper choice though, it's like telling Mythic raiders they're only going to put LFR in from now on and if they want a challenge they can use quest greens. Would that really be a proper choice?

    The only way to make a "fair" compromise would be my idea a few posts above where you can toggle "Fly Mode" like Warmode and have all your quest rewards halved and the requirements for Covenants doubled. It's not worth doing it though because, unlike with raiding and the need for LFR, there's pretty much zero barrier to completing most world content.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Binaris View Post
    No one was tricked and no one is surprised. Un-clench the pearls.
    This 100% ^^^^ Nobody was tricked except you...and that is only because you managed to trick yourself.

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    But they don't suck, when I go out to do my daily emissary or covenant or whatever I have a great time. The fact that I'm checking a map, plotting a route, surveying the land and then, for some quests at least, looking at the enemies and planning the best way to engage them to complete the objectives as quickly as possible, makes the world content fun and engaging and, unlike with dailies in WotLK to MoP, more like the way questing works as you level. It's flying that made them a boring chore because it was the answer to all the questions. What's the best route? Mount up and fly in a straight line. What should I do about these mobs in my way? Fly over them. How should I engage this quest? Fly up and drop on the targets.



    ^.^ It wouldn't be a proper choice though, it's like telling Mythic raiders they're only going to put LFR in from now on and if they want a challenge they can use quest greens. Would that really be a proper choice?

    The only way to make a "fair" compromise would be my idea a few posts above where you can toggle "Fly Mode" like Warmode and have all your quest rewards halved and the requirements for Covenants doubled. It's not worth doing it though because, unlike with raiding and the need for LFR, there's pretty much zero barrier to completing most world content.
    if you enjoy doing them on a ground mount why do you have to remove my ability to fly to do that? you havent actually answered the question. fun is subjective, everyone enjoys the game differently. the problem comes in when you force one subset of players to play a certain way.

    saying the choice is an illusion is bullshit, a choice is a choice. you just dont want to have to make a choice.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    if you enjoy doing them on a ground mount why do you have to remove my ability to fly to do that? you havent actually answered the question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled. If the game is balanced and paced around flight being enabled then not using it is an illusory choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    fun is subjective, everyone enjoys the game differently. the problem comes in when you force one subset of players to play a certain way.
    "Forcing" someone to play a certain way is pretty much the definition of game development. If you want to play current raids you're "forced" to do it in a group. If you want the best gear you're "forced" to do harder difficulties. You're "forced" to repeat content because of RNG loot and you're "forced" to do it over an extended period because of raid lockouts.

    saying the choice is an illusion is bullshit, a choice is a choice. you just dont want to have to make a choice.
    No it's not bullshit, you just don't like it. Do you think it would be a proper "choice" if there was only one difficulty level of raids and people wanting more of a challenge could wear quest greens? What did you think of my idea of having a fly-mode toggle that halved quest rewards and doubled the requirements for Covenant dailies, don't you think that would be a better choice than expecting people to gimp themselves? What if flying was the norm and you could choose a no-fly mode that doubled quest rewards and halved Covenant requirements, would that feel better?

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    "Forcing" someone to play a certain way is pretty much the definition of game development. If you want to play current raids you're "forced" to do it in a group. If you want the best gear you're "forced" to do harder difficulties. You're "forced" to repeat content because of RNG loot and you're "forced" to do it over an extended period because of raid lockouts.



    No it's not bullshit, you just don't like it. Do you think it would be a proper "choice" if there was only one difficulty level of raids and people wanting more of a challenge could wear quest greens? What did you think of my idea of having a fly-mode toggle that halved quest rewards and doubled the requirements for Covenant dailies, don't you think that would be a better choice than expecting people to gimp themselves? What if flying was the norm and you could choose a no-fly mode that doubled quest rewards and halved Covenant requirements, would that feel better?
    a proper choice is subjective... you dont want to have to make the choice and you want that choice removed from others.

    as for players wanting to make the content harder for selves, if you want to do that I dont see the problem.

    if the goal is to have the most possible challenge then people who say they want that wouldn't do the exact opposite like they actually do.

    maybe remove gear from the equation and make mythic entirely skill based. theyre already heading in that direction anyways as they continually remove stats and are now removing levels.

    regardless you still havent answered my question bout playing the way you want without restricting others, and I think the reason you intentionally skipped it is because its reveals a major flaw in your thinking...

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post



    If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled.
    Yes, exactly! And by doing so they would be forced to innovate and iterate flight at the same time, breaking their tored, weak formula of consistently dumbing down the open world.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by chaoticcrono View Post
    a proper choice is subjective... you dont want to have to make the choice and you want that choice removed from others.
    So if one spec, or an entire class, does half the damage of another it's still a valid choice?
    If all raids drop the same loot, people in harder difficulties should be happy about their choice?
    If Prot Warrior wants to tank with a 2-hander there is nothing wrong with making that choice?

    as for players wanting to make the content harder for selves, if you want to do that I dont see the problem.

    if the goal is to have the most possible challenge then people who say they want that wouldn't do the exact opposite like they actually do.
    It's not about having the most possible challenge, it's about the devs setting a certain level of challenge that isn't undermined by a single ability.

    maybe remove gear from the equation and make mythic entirely skill based. theyre already heading in that direction anyways as they continually remove stats and are now removing levels.
    So Mythic should be LFR run naked? Do you think Mythic raiders would be happy with that choice?


    regardless you still havent answered my question bout playing the way you want without restricting others, and I think the reason you intentionally skipped it is because its reveals a major flaw in your thinking...
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    If flying is in the game Blizz will have to balance and pace the game around flight being enabled. If the game is balanced and paced around flight being enabled then not using it is an illusory choice.
    Third time I've answered the question now. How about you have a go at mine -
    What did you think of my idea of having a fly-mode toggle that halved quest rewards and doubled the requirements for Covenant dailies, don't you think that would be a better choice than expecting people to gimp themselves?
    What if flying was the norm and you could choose a no-fly mode that doubled quest rewards and halved Covenant requirements, would that feel better?

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    Flying isn't cool. Know how I know?

    If every person in every thread ever posted here about flying really thought flying was so cool, they'd be out there flying. But what are they doing? 100k gold says they're all standing around in Stormwind or Ogrimmar waiting for their next queue to pop. They don't think it's cool - they think it's easy. They're too ADD-stricken to spend the time it takes traveling around the world the designers spent so much time creating. They want the easy way out, and they throw a tantrum when they don't get it.
    pay up, please. the only time I spend in Orgrimmar or Stormwind is either passing through the portal room/the island to get to the zone I actualy want a little faster or listing some shit on AH before heading back out. even if i AM waiting in queue (which is rare, cause I prefer overworld play to dungeon or raid pugs and I never pvp) I do some out in a world. either farming mats, or questing or both.

    THAT is why I like flying. because it allows me to reduce the in between of the activities I enjoy and actualy enjoy activities more. too much travel = me not getting to actualy do things as much, cause my play time is NOT infinite.

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    What agenda lmao? Read my previous post again. I'm saying they are spreading and gating content so that people will log in over a longer period of time. When you grind gear that is being reduced, you'll have to log in. When you want to unlock flying you have to log in too. But over an extended period of time because of the reduced loot and gated content which is what they want. This is not merely a claim it is common sense. Too difficult for you to comprehend?
    To get flying, you only have to log in once a week for an hour until you reach 40 + what ever additional levels are required in .1. That is hardly an extended period of time.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    So if one spec, or an entire class, does half the damage of another it's still a valid choice?
    If all raids drop the same loot, people in harder difficulties should be happy about their choice?
    If Prot Warrior wants to tank with a 2-hander there is nothing wrong with making that choice?
    are these choices valid? yes.

    I dont tell people what they should do or feel...

    There used to be two handed tanking and people liked that, so no I see nothing wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It's not about having the most possible challenge, it's about the devs setting a certain level of challenge that isn't undermined by a single ability.
    not sure what youre talking about with regard to this, people will always find a way to undermine challenge. also challenge isnt cut and dry as challenging for one person may be a cake walk for someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    So Mythic should be LFR run naked? Do you think Mythic raiders would be happy with that choice?
    Again I dont tell people what they should do... If they WANT to do that I have no issue with them trying and if they enjoy doing that then it would make sense to assume they are happy with that choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Third time I've answered the question now. How about you have a go at mine -
    What did you think of my idea of having a fly-mode toggle that halved quest rewards and doubled the requirements for Covenant dailies, don't you think that would be a better choice than expecting people to gimp themselves?
    What if flying was the norm and you could choose a no-fly mode that doubled quest rewards and halved Covenant requirements, would that feel better?
    You still havn't answered my question, all you've done is ask questions... but I'll answer your question then explain the issue with your thinking.

    Your question contradicts itself, as its doing exactly that. it gimps you in some way, so nothing has changed.

    both of those are effectively the same thing and that's actually what blizz did with rested xp. at first it was a penalty and then they changed it to be a "bonus" because how you frame it affects how people feel about it. the mechanic never actually changed.

    Now I'll try my best to explain the issue with your thinking.

    you've narrowed the choice down to 2 things. (there's more choices but these 2 are the ones you've basically pointed out so I'll focus on these)

    The choices are

    playing less optimally but more fun

    or

    Playing more optimally and less fun.

    because both of these choices require you to give up something you want you dont like the choice and dont want the choice.
    what you want is to have the positives of both without the negatives (which is totally understandable)

    Now this may come as a shock to you but you dont HAVE to play optimally. and taking away that choice from others because you dont want to have to make that choice for yourself will not solve the problem as this choice presents itself in many forms.

    In fact you are the very example they talk about when they say players will optimize the fun out of the game, sadly by trying to control players devs only make this problem worse.

    taking away choice does not solve the problem as its an internal issue the player has to deal with.

    this choice will never go away and is not unique to one game or scenario. and removing choices will not improve things or make this choice any easier.

    when you advocate for removing choice this will inevitably come back to bite you in the ass as the things YOU like and enjoy are removed as options.

    in every decisive changes they've made I've always advocated for making it an option so that the most amount of people can play and enjoy the game. Like scaling for instance, I absolutely hate it. But I get that some people like and so I dont want it removed outright but simply want the option to play the game without it. ie a toggle option like war mode.

    I get that you cant make EVERYONE happy, but you can make most people happy by not alienating large portions of the player base.

  19. #579
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    I don't think I've been like "Damn, I wish I could fly here" even once this expansion. Except maybe in Ravendreth. I guess traveling by foot is content on it's own, like in many games where you can also fast travel.

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  20. #580
    Chat don't tell him that you could only use maw mounts in the maw anyways.

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