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  1. #541
    El Chapo doesn't make the grade...

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Your argument takes the comparison too far...
    Compared to "but they live in different places", "but they discriminate different races" and "but one is more powerful than the other", at least gossiping about their difference in eyeliner colour of choice is more interesting.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

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  3. #543
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Ya, they are so different you can only repeat it ad nauseam but can't point out exactly why alleged differences are so important in your book.
    For me... The vast majority of White Nationalist terrorist are based on imagined oppression and strife. Then there is also state sponsorship and far closer community of middle eastern terrorism, necessitated by war and real struggle to survive.

    Edit: One side does it because they have nothing to lose and are in a desperate state. The other would be distracted from their actions, by a brand new PlayStation 5...
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-03-20 at 12:26 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    For me... The vast majority of White Nationalist terrorist are based on imagined oppression and strife. Then there is also state sponsorship and far closer community of middle eastern terrorism, necessitated by war and real struggle to survive.
    When people are delusional enough, it's about as close to the truth for them as it gets.

    I really could hardly care if right-wingers truly undergo oppression or strife or whatever, especially when it's self-inflicted in either case.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

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  5. #545
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    I really could hardly care if right-wingers truly undergo oppression or strife or whatever, especially when it's self-inflicted in either case.
    They are not oppressed... in US, they are the ruling party... they already have what they are terrorizing for...

    Edit: The hardest thing in this argument, is showing the similarities and differences, without downplaying the actions of each. Saying Middle East terrorist are oppressed, feels icky and implies justification of the violence. While calling right wing oppression completely imagined, downplays the very title of the thread.

    It’s not an easy comparison, because of what’s involved in the comparison. You inevitably will seem like you favor one over the other, by simply stating differences. It’s icky...
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-03-20 at 12:34 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    They are not oppressed... in US, they are the ruling party... they already have what they are terrorizing for...

    Edit: The hardest thing in this argument, is showing the similarities and differences, without downplaying the actions of each. Saying Middle East terrorist are oppressed, feels icky and implies justification of the violence. While calling right wing oppression completely imagined, downplays the very title of the thread.

    It’s not an easy comparison, because of what’s involved in the comparison. You inevitably will seem like you favor one over the other, by simply stating differences. It’s icky...
    What I meant was, whether or not that oppression exists or it's just a byproduct of a professional victim's delusions, it's still self-inflicted in either case.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

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  7. #547
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    What I meant was, whether or not that oppression exists or it's just a byproduct of a professional victim's delusions, it's still self-inflicted in either case.
    That’s where a bit of irony comes in... You can’t say that about both, because one of the idols of the right in US, Reagan, inflicted the damage that if not caused terrorists, it sure as hell put US in the crosshairs that were squarely pointed at Britain before.

    Edit: Before 80s, death to Britain was far more common chant, than anything to do with US. Oil crisis, shmoil crisis... British Petroleum was the baddie going after their oil, when they get kicked out... we push Exxon in...

    Edit 2: It’s why Gadsden flag is so appropriate for far right... Their less extreme brethren cause the very issues that extremes then amplify and blame on everyone else... it’s just a snake, eating it’s own tail...

    Edit 3: Think about it for just a sec... can you imagine a culture war in the 80s or 90s, where evangelicals join the far right, in decrying the desexualization of cartoon characters. If you want more sex on TV, your enemy is hiding within your ranks.
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-03-20 at 12:53 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Edit: The hardest thing in this argument, is showing the similarities and differences, without downplaying the actions of each. Saying Middle East terrorist are oppressed, feels icky and implies justification of the violence. While calling right wing oppression completely imagined, downplays the very title of the thread.
    It’s not an easy comparison, because of what’s involved in the comparison. You inevitably will seem like you favor one over the other, by simply stating differences. It’s icky...
    Ya.. Misery and desperation however can be factors in creating monsters. And I don't think I can go any further with that point before understanding and sympathy becomes an alignment.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    AQ, ISIS and the Talibans ideology, capability and goals are vastly different. Rapewaffen, Rise Above Movement and Qanon grandmas ideology, capability and goals are vastly different.

    There is no underlying unifying ideology. 'All the groups are anti semetic so they are the same!' isnt the big brain thought you think it is.
    You are too focused on the rhetoric of these groups rather than core ideological views.

    Right wing extremism usually seeks a "return" to some "time before" when "things were better".

    They seek to restore certain power structures, these power structures typically have religious, racial, ethnic, (yes, racism and ethnic discrimination exists in even among Muslims extremists), and gender related undertones.

    Furthermore they will willingly and eagerly use violence to achieve their objectives as they feel the exercise of violence to be empowering.

    Within this framework American fascists, Qloons etc and ISIS jihadists might actually mutually hate each other, but you know who they hate more?

    Gays. Women. Normies. Progressives. Scientists. Trans people. Minorities (whichever minority they have close on hand that they can hate on). Artists. Double triple hate the artists that happen to fall into multiple of the previous categories.
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    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  10. #550
    Islamic terrorists are right-wing in nature and you can find more commonalities between them and right-wing terrorists than you can with left-wing terrorists, but they are still different and it sometimes makes sense to differentiate them depending on the context.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Islamic terrorists are right-wing in nature and you can find more commonalities between them and right-wing terrorists than you can with left-wing terrorists, but they are still different and it sometimes makes sense to differentiate them depending on the context.
    It makes absolute sense to differentiate them from a security PoV as you need different tools with different groups.
    An internal network is different than a fully domestic.

    Doesn't change how the core ideological ideas behind most Islamic terrorism and AQ, ISIS and other Salafist groups are in most ways the same as the white movements within the US.
    With them often recruiting from the same population type.

    They just paint with different shades
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  12. #552
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    They're different groups, with some common threads. The issue here is nomenclature. "Right-wing terrorism" should be a wide bubble that wholly encapsulates Islamic terrorism and American domestic terrorism, both. With a lack of a proper label for said American domestic terrorism (and thus, my attempt to create one here for the sake of discussion), the label for the bigger bubble gets used, but I'd argue that's improper.

    Honestly, it's not that different from the "real American" horseshit, where they try and repurpose a broad label ("American") to mean some narrow subset ("white conservative bigoted Americans"), with an implicit argument that anyone else does not fit that label, much like here, where people are trying to argue that ubertraditionalist conservative religious extremists are both right-wing in one case (American domestic terrorists) and not in another (Islamic terrorism).

    Do I agree that there are distinctions to be drawn between American domestic terrorism and Islamic terrorism? Sure. Are they both right-wing terrorism? Also sure. Do they have commonalities? Obviously. Are there also differences? Yarp. That shouldn't be particularly controversial.

  13. #553
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Do I agree that there are distinctions to be drawn between American domestic terrorism and Islamic terrorism? Sure. Are they both right-wing terrorism? Also sure. Do they have commonalities? Obviously. Are there also differences? Yarp. That shouldn't be particularly controversial.
    Yeah, I don't get the controversy here. Maybe some right-wingers just want to argue in bad faith and claim Islamic terrorism is left-wing so they have something to point to? A Venn diagram is more useful here than just black and white labeling.
    There is a limit to the success of conservative populism and the exploitation of "little guy" or "silent majority" rhetoric, and it is very often reached because of the emaciated, corrupted personalities of the demagogues themselves.
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  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Yeah, I don't get the controversy here. Maybe some right-wingers just want to argue in bad faith and claim Islamic terrorism is left-wing so they have something to point to? A Venn diagram is more useful here than just black and white labeling.
    I think it's because they just don't like the comparison. Y'all Qaeda might not be suicide-piloting planes to sky scrapers, but are more than ready to get a murderous insurrection going with a little nudge.
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    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  15. #555
    People on the far right don't operate on facts, they operate on feelings, no matter what region they are from.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Yeah, I don't get the controversy here. Maybe some right-wingers just want to argue in bad faith and claim Islamic terrorism is left-wing so they have something to point to? A Venn diagram is more useful here than just black and white labeling.
    The point was that they are best understood as neither left- nor right-wing, while some argue in bad faith and try to put them as right-wing.

    A Venn-diagram might be more useful, but also misleading for several reasons.

    However, if you insist and constructed such a diagram the likely result would be that left-wing terrorist were dominating in terms of terrorist attacks in 2019 in the EU (but not in the US) - more below.

    Specifically Islamic terrorism is inherently neither right- or left-wing; and some organizations span people with different political stance. Historically it is more complicated as some that we might think of as historic Islamic terrorist (e.g., Libya under Ghaddafi) were in fact fairly non-fundamentalist.
    A Venn diagram misses that by trying to put all the labels on everyone, ignoring the importance of the different beliefs for the different persons.
    Even with the label "right-wing terrorists" there might be different groups that are only loosely coupled; and additionally in several summaries many of the victims of many terrorism attacks belong to the roughly same group as the attacker - indicating that there are also internal power-struggles.

    Similarly ethno-separatists (leading in terms of attacks in Europe, but no longer in the EU) are neither inherently right- or left-wing; although many also have political views.

    Specifically in Europe the majority of the terrorism attacks were made related to N. Ireland, and I would assume by a group calling themselves IRA (the variants of IRA are normally labels given by others). The IRA has historically been socialist, similar as Sinn Fein - but the troubles is normally not understood as a primarily right- vs. left-wing conflict. (One might also claim that it is just over-reporting by the uk.)

  17. #557
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    The point was that they are best understood as neither left- nor right-wing, while some argue in bad faith and try to put them as right-wing.
    It’s inherently right wing... there is nothing muddying the waters, other than the fact that American terrorist, are also extremely anti muslim.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Even with the label "right-wing terrorists" there might be different groups that are only loosely coupled
    They are coupled by where they reside on the political spectrum, with the left being progressive and the right being regressive. A scope in which its being discussed...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  18. #558
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    The point was that they are best understood as neither left- nor right-wing, while some argue in bad faith and try to put them as right-wing.
    Islamic terrorists are definitively far-right-wing. If that fact is challenging your understanding, the problem doesn't lie with the labelling, but your flawed understanding.

    Historically it is more complicated as some that we might think of as historic Islamic terrorist (e.g., Libya under Ghaddafi) were in fact fairly non-fundamentalist.
    Most Islamic terror organizations are primarily geo-political in ideology, and only use the trappings of religion as dressing for those geopolitical aims. That's why they're targeting geopolitical opponents and targets rather than religious ones. Al-Qaeda didn't set planes to hit the Twin Towers because the USA was Christian and they were Muslim; they did so because of geopolitical actions taken by the USA in the Middle East.

    Even with the label "right-wing terrorists" there might be different groups that are only loosely coupled; and additionally in several summaries many of the victims of many terrorism attacks belong to the roughly same group as the attacker - indicating that there are also internal power-struggles.
    And? "Right-wing" is a super-broad designation. It encapsulates a wide range. Variances within that range don't work against the label.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    It’s inherently right wing...
    Ah, yes, the islamic socialist terrorist were also right-wing. Just close your eyes and white and black become the same.

  20. #560
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Ah, yes, the islamic socialist terrorist were also right-wing. Just close your eyes and white and black become the same.
    Right wing is a spectrum... it’s not a single point... event confining it to extreme right wing, is still a spectrum...

    Edit: By the way... if you continue applying “Liberal Fascism” logic to Middle Eastern terrorism, the similarities of making such an application by American terrorist to defend their fascism... should at least imply some similarity.
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-03-20 at 05:06 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

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