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  1. #81
    Depends on the player... world pvpers didn't like it since once side almost always dominated and wiped out the less populated faction via the air in numbers,

    I don't think most players cared since wow was always about instanced content not world content.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    Yeah, Cata flight was fantastic. I loved it so much that I slowly pulled together Epic Flying for all of my characters (10-12... can’t remember exactly how many). I did that specifically for the benefits of flying while questing.

    I was a bit irritated when MoP went back to level capping and charging a lot more for it, because I was gold-poor by that point, but I lived with it. When they announced the changes that were coming in WoD though, the spouse and I broke an 8 year run on the game and left.
    THe ONLY reason Cata was like that was because the new zones were within Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdowms. THey did not want no fly zones in the middle of flying zones. That was a temporary compromise for that expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cozzri View Post
    Pathfinder is demotivational; I haven't stayed subbed for entire expansions because it just becomes such a drag waiting and waiting. Learning flying from a trainer worked fine.
    Well, yeah because they handed it to you for nothing but gold. God forbid you actually have to make an effort to get something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This is dense. Flying in a video game (a feature that was introduced by the develoeprs) is not the same as a narcotic nor is it remotely comparable and you'd have to be completely ignorant of both to consider it an apt comparison.

    If people were not thrilled about flying they could have stayed ground mounted. For the most part the game remained accessible by ground mounts. Of course in practice nobody did this but if they really disliked the idea of flying they could have chose the alternative.
    Nobody is going to stay grounded when flying is available because nobody is going to intentionally gimp themselves. People really need to get this point ingrained in their heads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It was great. The fact that the developers are either unwilling or unable to capitalize on the popularity of a feature THEY INTRODUCED speaks volumes. They've slowly made it less and less useful to use and Shadowlands appears to continue this trend. I wish they would simple remove it as the compromise they've offered is reay quite deceptive.
    THe compromise is fine. THe only reason you see it otherwise because they won't give it to you for zero effort.

  3. #83
    Flying is just plain bad. It was a bad idea in Burning Crusade and it’s a bad idea now. Blizzard tried to correct in WoD but it was too late: once people are used to a given level of convenience they’ll kick and scream when it’s taken away.

    The ability to fly around freely with no limitations in most games is the realm of literal hackers. It trivialises the game in almost every way. I dropped WoW in Cata when they spread the flying cancer to the whole world and only return for the early expansion periods before they bring Pathfinder in and ruin the game with sanctioned flyhacking again.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Snufflupagus View Post
    Flying is just plain bad. It was a bad idea in Burning Crusade and it’s a bad idea now. Blizzard tried to correct in WoD but it was too late: once people are used to a given level of convenience they’ll kick and scream when it’s taken away.

    The ability to fly around freely with no limitations in most games is the realm of literal hackers. It trivialises the game in almost every way. I dropped WoW in Cata when they spread the flying cancer to the whole world and only return for the early expansion periods before they bring Pathfinder in and ruin the game with sanctioned flyhacking again.
    WoW's open world never really mattered. Its all about instanced content. Its why no one tracks anything in the world beyond a world boss for free loot.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    Anyway, how do you feel about it?
    I have all the pathfinders and see no problem with allowing players to just fly in old expansions.

    At the very least, I hope they remove the restriction on BfA when the next expansion comes out... if so, I might come back for a short stretch and do that expansion.
    I hope that becomes the trend for the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Well, yeah because they handed it to you for nothing but gold. God forbid you actually have to make an effort to get something.
    Have it available on launch, don't mind doing the stuff for it since I'm going to do it anyways as a collector/achievement hunter.

    THe compromise is fine. THe only reason you see it otherwise because they won't give it to you for zero effort.
    Effort is irrelevant to me, stop the timegating.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    THe ONLY reason Cata was like that was because the new zones were within Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdowms. THey did not want no fly zones in the middle of flying zones. That was a temporary compromise for that expansion.

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    Well, yeah because they handed it to you for nothing but gold. God forbid you actually have to make an effort to get something.

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    Nobody is going to stay grounded when flying is available because nobody is going to intentionally gimp themselves. People really need to get this point ingrained in their heads.

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    THe compromise is fine. THe only reason you see it otherwise because they won't give it to you for zero effort.
    Except its not a compromise. It is the virtual removal of flying by making it as grindy and useless to obtain as possible. It may as well not even exist. And yea you could stay grounded nothing stopped you. Even if you want to argue it was an illusion of choice thats far better than the literally not choice thats offered to everybody else now.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Rick View Post
    WoW's open world never really mattered. Its all about instanced content. Its why no one tracks anything in the world beyond a world boss for free loot.
    The world never mattered because ever since TBC there issnt a good reason to have it matter. Unless Blizzard fundamentally rethinks how flying works then there is no way to have content anywhere but hte ground, at which point you either have to ground players on a moment to moment basis, or accept that the traditional means of hindering the player is mostly moot.

    World content has improved leaps and bounds since Cata when flying was at its most egregious. Zones are actually tightly designed instead of mostly vast expanses of nothing to attempt to retain a level of immersion. Enviromental puzzles like the mushroom growths in Maldraxxus or hidden bells in Bastion are possible to design when players can't simply mount up and get to them in a straight line, water walking gets its moment once again, and the tank immunity to being dazed while hit on a mount is actually useful again.

    The WoW version of flying has always been what held back world design, for players like me that wants the world to actually matter flying being removed is a true gift as it allows the developers limitations necessary for creativity to flourish.
    I want Blizzard to keep designing fun things like Zerekriss in Maldraxxus, or normally inacessible easter eggs hidden on mountains. I want the world to be designed like I am actually supposed to engage with it, not like I am supposed to casually dev mode flight from one end of the zone to the other. I don't want Blizzard to cave in to those that just want to skip content because it bores them, I want them to design the world for those that want to play it.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  8. #88
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    I liked being able to outright buy flying or earning it via fun questlines like in Pandaria. At that point I had already explored the entirety of every zone and had nothing else to see.
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Except its not a compromise. It is the virtual removal of flying by making it as grindy and useless to obtain as possible. It may as well not even exist. And yea you could stay grounded nothing stopped you. Even if you want to argue it was an illusion of choice thats far better than the literally not choice thats offered to everybody else now.
    The problem with this argument is that it falls apart hwen you realize you could apply it to other facets of the game and it would simply sound absurd.

    Talk to Chromie for instant level 60. Just have those that think levelling is an intrinsic part of the game ignore it, players should be free to play whatever they want with none of the legwork, more choices, even if they actively harm the game.
    Free herb vendor. Maybe you could limit it so you couldnt sell those on the AH, just ignoring that anyone with a crafting alt would no longer have any need of the AH.
    Free gear or boss instakills in raiding. Players could simply ignore it if they wanted a challenge, some players wants to see the content and shouldnt have to be limited by those that want the game to be designed without it.

    Flying is such an incomprehensibly powerful tool compared to the next step down that there is no way ot properly balance it as it stands, adding it simply removes a portion of the game for no better reason than that some players don't want to bother with it anymore. If a part of the game actively harms the game then it should be removed, arguing that the player should be free to choose is a meaningless argument, you have to draw the line at what they simply can't have at some point, and for world exploration I think a nice line to draw is that the players should not be able to fly from anywhere to anywhere. Honestly, as it stands flying is just the tiniest step below an actual feature that letss you teleport to anywhere on the map from anywhere, the only added risk is that you sometimes can't go AFK.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The world never mattered because ever since TBC there issnt a good reason to have it matter. Unless Blizzard fundamentally rethinks how flying works then there is no way to have content anywhere but hte ground, at which point you either have to ground players on a moment to moment basis, or accept that the traditional means of hindering the player is mostly moot.

    World content has improved leaps and bounds since Cata when flying was at its most egregious. Zones are actually tightly designed instead of mostly vast expanses of nothing to attempt to retain a level of immersion. Enviromental puzzles like the mushroom growths in Maldraxxus or hidden bells in Bastion are possible to design when players can't simply mount up and get to them in a straight line, water walking gets its moment once again, and the tank immunity to being dazed while hit on a mount is actually useful again.

    The WoW version of flying has always been what held back world design, for players like me that wants the world to actually matter flying being removed is a true gift as it allows the developers limitations necessary for creativity to flourish.
    I want Blizzard to keep designing fun things like Zerekriss in Maldraxxus, or normally inacessible easter eggs hidden on mountains. I want the world to be designed like I am actually supposed to engage with it, not like I am supposed to casually dev mode flight from one end of the zone to the other. I don't want Blizzard to cave in to those that just want to skip content because it bores them, I want them to design the world for those that want to play it.
    Ive never heard of nor been interested in anything the world had to offer me. Its simply filler and world building for the raid and instances. I don't think there is a large amount of players who care about the world content of the game beyond leveling if I am being blunt.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Its really bizarre that the current group of developers can remain so out of touch with their player base, make so many unpopular decisions and drive the game into its current state and still retain their jobs. I can't imagine working in any other private sector job and just holding this much disdain for your customers and fucking up so much and still somehow retain my job. I mean God bless them their fortune i guess.
    It's probably because you're imagining most of the problems. WoW might not be perfect but it has a broad pool of people to attract players from and seems to be maintaining a healthy player-base for a 16 year old game. Just because you personally don't like the way the game is going it doesn't mean the devs are out of touch with all their customers, and the disdain isn't real it's just bitterness because a game you used to like has developed away from you.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Rick View Post
    Ive never heard of nor been interested in anything the world had to offer me. Its simply filler and world building for the raid and instances. I don't think there is a large amount of players who care about the world content of the game beyond leveling if I am being blunt.
    If you don't care about making the world interesting then why do you care that someone does?

    For those that want the world content tto be interesting the lack of flying elevates that aspect by leaps and bounds. For those that don't care flying simply removes it.

    You wouldnt see this accepted in any other part of the game? Should raiding be trivialized because some players don't have the time, or care much at all about actually progressing? Should Elite PvP transmog sets simply be given to players because PvP is not everyons cup of tea?

    Again, flying isnt about getting to raids quickly, summoning stones already exist for that. Flying is about a fundamental difference of opinion on whether world content should be made at all, and unlike with instanced content those that don't care is allowed to get their way simply because they don't care.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    Old expansions? Remove them
    In fact didn't they remove them already? Or BFA still no fly? I know WoD did
    It will never be flyable in non-flying zones, it is far faster/cheaper to design zones with no fly in mind, pre-wod era i used to datamine in wow a lot, silvermoon is full of 2d looking buildings
    WoD itself isn't fully flyable, i can name infamous Shattrath city as f8ck u fly zone, it bugs a lot and u can get stuck beneath it while flying because u touched top of done (wtf?), but at least WoD isn't 2d, just a lot of zones where u fly hit a graphic wall and get stuck below ground (enjoy rezz sickness), makes me feel that WoD they scrapped flying in it mid-way, and only 'fixed' major zones for fly later after heavy request
    I don't think Silvermoon (and pre-Cata Stormwind, and probably some other areas) were built that way to save money, if anything it would probably take more time and testing to build a "stage illusion" like that and hope it was flawless enough. In those early days of WoW computer resources were a big concern and built up areas like Stormwind would have put a big strain on the sort of hardware that could run the rest of the game passably if they didn't find ways to remove some of the strain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    I’d probably re-sub to the game for 6 months or so if they took all flight requirements out of the old expansions.

    If they actually added flight to the permanent no-fly zones of the past at the same time, I would probably stay subbed permanently (but one expansion behind). I realize that would never happen though, because Bliz would not want to pay for it and they seem to despise flight... but I’m throwing it out there.

    At the very least, I hope they remove the restriction on BfA when the next expansion comes out... if so, I might come back for a short stretch and do that expansion.

    Anyway, how do you feel about it?
    I've always completed Pathfinder achievements as soon as possible just because they're the sort of content I like doing anyway. I have absolutely no problem with Blizz opening them up for flying when the expansion is no longer current (or a bit later,) same way they do with raids by boosting your damage to make them soloable.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    If you don't care about making the world interesting then why do you care that someone does?

    For those that want the world content tto be interesting the lack of flying elevates that aspect by leaps and bounds. For those that don't care flying simply removes it.

    You wouldnt see this accepted in any other part of the game? Should raiding be trivialized because some players don't have the time, or care much at all about actually progressing? Should Elite PvP transmog sets simply be given to players because PvP is not everyons cup of tea?

    Again, flying isnt about getting to raids quickly, summoning stones already exist for that. Flying is about a fundamental difference of opinion on whether world content should be made at all, and unlike with instanced content those that don't care is allowed to get their way simply because they don't care.
    I mean i would love my mythic plus portal back. Otherwise yeah I care about you adding things I have to afk through on a flight path.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Rick View Post
    Ive never heard of nor been interested in anything the world had to offer me. Its simply filler and world building for the raid and instances. I don't think there is a large amount of players who care about the world content of the game beyond leveling if I am being blunt.
    Then you are playing the wrong kind of game.

    Sadly, your kind are loud enough that over the last fifteen years the game has genre-shifted so that it’s doing it’s best not to be the kind of game it is. The world in the name doesn’t make any sense any more.

    Obviously it’s a moot point at this stage. People like you have won; World of Warcraft has been summarily and wholly ruined. But I’m not gonna pretend like flying is a good idea when the only argument people have for flying is “it lets me play World of Warcraft without playing World of Warcraft”.

    As someone observed earlier, flying is effectively a dev tool that lets you skip bits you don’t like. You suggest that people who don’t like flying just don’t. To extend that logic:

    * I don’t like raiding, but want to wreck noobs in PVP. We should have a boss instakill button so I can get mythic loot, but you can just not use it.
    * I don’t like farming, but want to have maxed crafting professions. We should have a mats vendor so I can buy all my mats as I need them, but you can just not use it.
    * I don’t like losing arena matches, but I want high rating. We should have a rating vendor. You can just not use it.

    This does not make sense. The game is a whole system recursively built on itself. Flying whips out one of the central jenga blocks that everything is built upon: the world itself. Without that, everything teeters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Rick View Post
    WoW's open world never really mattered. Its all about instanced content. Its why no one tracks anything in the world beyond a world boss for free loot.
    (Sorry I don’t know how to have more than one quote in a post. I’m not often a poster).

    The suggestion that WoW’s open world doesn’t matter is two things:

    A) True. It doesn’t.
    B) Comical. What an absurd proposition.

    World of Warcraft is the open world. That was the pitch. That was the value proposition. Run around the open world of Warcraft. Build a character, explore this vast world, grow strong and blahblahblah. The open world is the game.

    And then flying came.

    Saying we should just get flying right off the bat because the open world doesn’t matter is like telling someone they should just smoke a pack a day, they’ve already got cancer—except every two yearsish they get a new expansion and a magical reprieve from cancer and you’re breathing down their neck to keep smoking. The open world doesn’t matter because it’s trivialised by flying. If players are just gonna fly over it, why would the devs make the world matter?

    The upshot is that we get a crappy, claustrophobic, meaningless world and a game that is essentially just menus queueing up for a set of scenarios. Modern WoW would literally be a better game if you just logged into a menu screen, chose an instance and got tossed into the relevant loading screen. The world is an utter irrelevance... but that’s because of flying, not the other way around.

    (Hence, incidentally, people crying about wanting a single faction and so on as well—WoW would be a better game of its current genre if there was just one faction, too, but it’d be a shit game).

    But WoW can’t just get rid of the open world. That’s it’s core. It’s never gonna go away. So you and yours are stuck with a game that invests swathes of dev time in an open world you’d be better off without (and then invalidates that world with flying anyway), and I’m stuck with a game that caters to the twits who want to play fantasy-themed Counterstrike who suck dev time out of the world that makes it worthwhile because they’re just gonna fly right over it. Neither of us is happy.

    Classic+ was the impossible dream that could’ve fixed it, but your side of the fence colonised mine and now they’ve fumbled that too.

  16. #96
    As someone who only creates alts these days due to not having the current xpac, I love going through the old world from 1-29 because of that nostalgic no fly feeling - but the moment I hit 30 my desire to play through on a ground mount drops significantly because there's that gnawing thought in the back of my head that knows that flying around makes everything that much quicker. Due to that I go to bfa or spam dungeons (which I guess is sorta of fix) but it's still a bummer having things 'spoiled' from the option (but no brainer convenience) of flying.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    I’d probably re-sub to the game for 6 months or so if they took all flight requirements out of the old expansions.

    If they actually added flight to the permanent no-fly zones of the past at the same time, I would probably stay subbed permanently (but one expansion behind). I realize that would never happen though, because Bliz would not want to pay for it and they seem to despise flight... but I’m throwing it out there.

    At the very least, I hope they remove the restriction on BfA when the next expansion comes out... if so, I might come back for a short stretch and do that expansion.

    Anyway, how do you feel about it?
    so even if blizzard catered to your desire, you would only sub for 6months? Maybe even less? WOW blizzard is totally considering that , gonna bump up those quaterly numbers when some random joe just subbed for 6months
    You don't understand. Having an unpayed full time job that no one appreciates is the magic of classic.

    It's about the journey. The journey into depression. The journey of running a daycare full of middle-aged alcoholics ignoring their SOs and avoiding social engagements to fulfill something they wanted 15 years ago before everyone realized it's not hard at all.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    Anyway, how do you feel about it?
    I feel great about having earned flight.

  19. #99
    I don't like it at all

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It's probably because you're imagining most of the problems. WoW might not be perfect but it has a broad pool of people to attract players from and seems to be maintaining a healthy player-base for a 16 year old game. Just because you personally don't like the way the game is going it doesn't mean the devs are out of touch with all their customers, and the disdain isn't real it's just bitterness because a game you used to like has developed away from you.
    I imagined the subscriber decline over the past decade Huh k. Yea yea its old and the people who make it have nothing new to add evidently. They are 100% out of touch and its in the numbers.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-03-01 at 12:39 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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