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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    I think that flying should have stayed as a TBC Only-Feature.
    Lucky for you it's not manditory... however, if someone else wishes to fly let them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  2. #122
    What they just did is perfectly fine to me. Current flying tied to current content, last expansion and older baked all in.

  3. #123
    They won’t redo the TBC starter zones to allow flying and most people won’t level through the extreme old content end zones ( like Argus) anyway but - pathfinder for BFA should it be lifted ( assuming it’s still there) so someone who didn’t play BFA gets to level faster? Maybe but if you didn’t play the previous xpac you will miss the flavor by just flying and picking up ( mostly trash treasures and easy rares) - you’ll enjoy BFA more by earning pathfinder imho!

  4. #124
    People feeling so attached to flying is a symptom of the underlying problems with WoW's dated content model. A lot of people don't actually care about the zones - they only care about the chores. Anything that makes those chores quicker and easier is preferred, while anything that makes them take longer is reviled. But that's because the model of chore-based activities to which zones/lore/characters/etc. are merely a backdrop is the problem.

  5. #125
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Flying was fine from TBC to MoP. Then WoD came along, which gave us Pathfinder. That was ok at the time...

    But then Legion and BFA had 2 parts to the shit, and by the time they released their stuff, no one cared. Literally no one liked Pathfinder anymore. It was dogshit.

    SL's flight thing is aight tho. First patch, and it only requires us to complete the covenant campaign? That's sweet.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    snip
    Thanks for sharing, i guess?

    I find it absolutely silly though.

  7. #127
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snufflupagus View Post
    Then you are playing the wrong kind of game.

    Sadly, your kind are loud enough that over the last fifteen years the game has genre-shifted so that it’s doing it’s best not to be the kind of game it is. The world in the name doesn’t make any sense any more.

    Obviously it’s a moot point at this stage. People like you have won; World of Warcraft has been summarily and wholly ruined. But I’m not gonna pretend like flying is a good idea when the only argument people have for flying is “it lets me play World of Warcraft without playing World of Warcraft”.

    As someone observed earlier, flying is effectively a dev tool that lets you skip bits you don’t like. You suggest that people who don’t like flying just don’t. To extend that logic:

    * I don’t like raiding, but want to wreck noobs in PVP. We should have a boss instakill button so I can get mythic loot, but you can just not use it.
    * I don’t like farming, but want to have maxed crafting professions. We should have a mats vendor so I can buy all my mats as I need them, but you can just not use it.
    * I don’t like losing arena matches, but I want high rating. We should have a rating vendor. You can just not use it.

    This does not make sense. The game is a whole system recursively built on itself. Flying whips out one of the central jenga blocks that everything is built upon: the world itself. Without that, everything teeters.

    - - - Updated - - -



    (Sorry I don’t know how to have more than one quote in a post. I’m not often a poster).

    The suggestion that WoW’s open world doesn’t matter is two things:

    A) True. It doesn’t.
    B) Comical. What an absurd proposition.

    World of Warcraft is the open world. That was the pitch. That was the value proposition. Run around the open world of Warcraft. Build a character, explore this vast world, grow strong and blahblahblah. The open world is the game.

    And then flying came.

    Saying we should just get flying right off the bat because the open world doesn’t matter is like telling someone they should just smoke a pack a day, they’ve already got cancer—except every two yearsish they get a new expansion and a magical reprieve from cancer and you’re breathing down their neck to keep smoking. The open world doesn’t matter because it’s trivialised by flying. If players are just gonna fly over it, why would the devs make the world matter?

    The upshot is that we get a crappy, claustrophobic, meaningless world and a game that is essentially just menus queueing up for a set of scenarios. Modern WoW would literally be a better game if you just logged into a menu screen, chose an instance and got tossed into the relevant loading screen. The world is an utter irrelevance... but that’s because of flying, not the other way around.

    (Hence, incidentally, people crying about wanting a single faction and so on as well—WoW would be a better game of its current genre if there was just one faction, too, but it’d be a shit game).

    But WoW can’t just get rid of the open world. That’s it’s core. It’s never gonna go away. So you and yours are stuck with a game that invests swathes of dev time in an open world you’d be better off without (and then invalidates that world with flying anyway), and I’m stuck with a game that caters to the twits who want to play fantasy-themed Counterstrike who suck dev time out of the world that makes it worthwhile because they’re just gonna fly right over it. Neither of us is happy.

    Classic+ was the impossible dream that could’ve fixed it, but your side of the fence colonised mine and now they’ve fumbled that too.
    Not everyone has the time to travel from point a to point b on a ground mount. If casual players want to use their fucking Gryphons, let them. You're not one how to tell people how to play an MMORPG that's based on their choice of play.

    Lots of people also quit Legion, BFA, and SL BECAUSE they were limited to the ground. The zones suck to travel in every 24 hours. It's boring, repetitive, and it sucks. Don't project some false narrative like Flying ruined everything. It didn't. Why do you think so many people wanted it back in WoD?

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Lots of people also quit Legion, BFA, and SL BECAUSE they were limited to the ground.
    That's a stretch.

    Quitting because of non-flight seems like a character flaw dressed up as "I don't have time."

    No one does, everyone is busy all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    You're not one how to tell people how to play an MMORPG that's based on their choice of play.
    Oof. Kettles etc.
    "Aren't you worried?"
    "Would it help?"

  9. #129
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I don't think Silvermoon (and pre-Cata Stormwind, and probably some other areas) were built that way to save money, if anything it would probably take more time and testing to build a "stage illusion" like that and hope it was flawless enough. In those early days of WoW computer resources were a big concern and built up areas like Stormwind would have put a big strain on the sort of hardware that could run the rest of the game passably if they didn't find ways to remove some of the strain.
    there are many wow official sources that says they made classic wow zones 2d to save time, nothing about saving 'resources' or any other reason, just why waste time build a full 3d model when a fake 2d does same job in 1/4 of time and effort needed

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Rick View Post
    WoW's open world never really mattered. Its all about instanced content. Its why no one tracks anything in the world beyond a world boss for free loot.
    according to last blizzcon, overwhelming majority of wow players are extreme casual, they don't even group up for mythic dungeons
    it is puzzling and we only have their words (why not release data? are they even sure that most wow subscribers and they not counting by chars? I have 10 alts who don't even do hc dungeons), but so far only official word (with no data to back it up) is majority of wow players are extreme casuals

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Not everyone has the time to travel from point a to point b on a ground mount. If casual players want to use their fucking Gryphons, let them. You're not one how to tell people how to play an MMORPG that's based on their choice of play.

    Lots of people also quit Legion, BFA, and SL BECAUSE they were limited to the ground. The zones suck to travel in every 24 hours. It's boring, repetitive, and it sucks. Don't project some false narrative like Flying ruined everything. It didn't. Why do you think so many people wanted it back in WoD?
    i hate bfa but i don't claim it was because of no fly, in fact fly or no play team is minority from what i can tell (i'm one of them)
    lot of ppl quite legion because of INSANE AP grind, which ppl warned since early beta and blizz ignored it (why? no idea)
    lot of ppl quit bfa because of class gutting
    SL is just released and impossible that 'lot' of ppl quite it, at least give it few months before claim so (true or not)
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  10. #130
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    I never said everyone or the majority quit cause of Flying alone for Legion and BFA. I said a lot of people have quit tho, especially when lookin at Reddit or official WoW site threads. I know some of my friends quit cause of that factor alone.

    "SL is just released and impossible that 'lot' of ppl quite it, at least give it few months before claim so (true or not)" Release a couple months ago, but yes people have quit. Due to the lack of Customization options and Blizzard straight up lying about it, Torghast sucking, PVE gearing being so ass, lack of flying making the zones unbearable, etc. It's not that hard to imagine people would quit tbh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xjan View Post
    That's a stretch.

    Quitting because of non-flight seems like a character flaw dressed up as "I don't have time."

    No one does, everyone is busy all the time.



    Oof. Kettles etc.
    Or because the zone design is just so fucking dogshit. Argus, Nazjatar, Val'sharah, Nazmir, Drustvar, etc were all stupid as hell to travel through, and that's because of how ass the zone design was. Also...don't make me mention the Maw. Please. That shit is the worst thing in the game rn.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    there are many wow official sources that says they made classic wow zones 2d to save time, nothing about saving 'resources' or any other reason, just why waste time build a full 3d model when a fake 2d does same job in 1/4 of time and effort needed
    Weird 'cos I've read them saying it was to save resources because let's face it once you've built something like Stormwind leaving off the rooves isn't going to be much of a saving in time, especially as they then have to test the viewing angles to make sure the illusion isn't shattered.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    there are many wow official sources that says they made classic wow zones 2d to save time, nothing about saving 'resources' or any other reason, just why waste time build a full 3d model when a fake 2d does same job in 1/4 of time and effort needed

    - - - Updated - - -


    according to last blizzcon, overwhelming majority of wow players are extreme casual, they don't even group up for mythic dungeons
    it is puzzling and we only have their words (why not release data? are they even sure that most wow subscribers and they not counting by chars? I have 10 alts who don't even do hc dungeons), but so far only official word (with no data to back it up) is majority of wow players are extreme casuals

    - - - Updated - - -


    i hate bfa but i don't claim it was because of no fly, in fact fly or no play team is minority from what i can tell (i'm one of them)
    lot of ppl quite legion because of INSANE AP grind, which ppl warned since early beta and blizz ignored it (why? no idea)
    lot of ppl quit bfa because of class gutting
    SL is just released and impossible that 'lot' of ppl quite it, at least give it few months before claim so (true or not)
    In terms of the data you mention...we have data to show that the wow player base isn't anywhere near as casual as it claims to be (or blizzard does).

    You can look at covenants with most classes have their BiS covenant consisting of over 80% of overall capped characters. The only spec I found with a near even split is havoc demon hunters who have a pretty healthy near 25% break down but that class is extremely rare to see due to how poorly they perform.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Not everyone has the time to travel from point a to point b on a ground mount. If casual players want to use their fucking Gryphons, let them. You're not one how to tell people how to play an MMORPG that's based on their choice of play.

    Lots of people also quit Legion, BFA, and SL BECAUSE they were limited to the ground. The zones suck to travel in every 24 hours. It's boring, repetitive, and it sucks. Don't project some false narrative like Flying ruined everything. It didn't. Why do you think so many people wanted it back in WoD?
    If you don't have hte time to travel to each instance then I really doubt you have the time to actually raid. And if the complaint is literally just that you don't want to interract with non-instanced content then that is exactly what summoning stones are for, if you so choose you could easily just wait in Oribos, your covenant hall or even Stormwind or Orgrimmar waiting for a summon, there are perfectly reasonable solutions if you really just hate the world aspect of the game that much.

    Again, asking people to just not fly is quite literally demanding that the devs change outdoor content to cater to those that don't want it.
    The eternal question is, and always has been one of why you care if flying is a thing at all, you already admit you don't like the content. It is almost exactly the same as adding an option to instakill bosses in raids because you don't want to learn tactics or progress.


    Also, if tthe problem is that the zones are boring or suck or whatever then the solution is to fix them, not patch over it with a "solution" that lets players skip it.
    World content has already improved leaps and bounds since MoP, and I would like for it to keep improving. I want more fun teleport hubs, or companions. I want more hidden secrets and jumping puzzles. I want more of the kind of zone that actually feels like it is designed like a game, not a checklist of areas needed for the bare minimum. If a rare mob is at the top of a tower I want the game to make the climb interesting, and then give me fun avenues of getting down like gliders, or slowfall, or goddamn anything that isnt the developers giving me dev flight and not having to bother with all that pesky gameplay design stuff.


    And once more, ask yourself why you want flying at all. Because I doubt the answer is anything but the fact that you want to skip actually playing the game, at which point I have to wonder why you even care at all when other players wants to improve it.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #134
    If they reduced mob density, I wouldn't want flying as much. Now that mobs in every zone are exactly your level, they all chase you forever. It's annoying and stupid.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Except its not a compromise. It is the virtual removal of flying by making it as grindy and useless to obtain as possible. It may as well not even exist. And yea you could stay grounded nothing stopped you. Even if you want to argue it was an illusion of choice thats far better than the literally not choice thats offered to everybody else now.
    It is a compromise. It was either that or no flying at all. You are the one who refuses to compromise because you want it handed to you for gold. You absolutely refuse to put any effort into earning it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    Have it available on launch, don't mind doing the stuff for it since I'm going to do it anyways as a collector/achievement hunter.

    Effort is irrelevant to me, stop the timegating.
    Having it available the launch with no time gating defeats the purpose. They do not want people flying over the content day one. They want everyone experiencing it from the ground first.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Having it available the launch with no time gating defeats the purpose. They do not want people flying over the content day one. They want everyone experiencing it from the ground first.
    Difference of opinion. What's the point of having pathfinder at all then? Just say "nah no flying till a year later".

    Either their excuse is "We want you to see the content" in which case cool, make people do pathfinder and unlock flying
    Or their excuse is we want you grounded just cause and remove pathfinder.
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  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Not everyone has the time to travel from point a to point b on a ground mount. If casual players want to use their fucking Gryphons, let them. You're not one how to tell people how to play an MMORPG that's based on their choice of play.

    Lots of people also quit Legion, BFA, and SL BECAUSE they were limited to the ground. The zones suck to travel in every 24 hours. It's boring, repetitive, and it sucks. Don't project some false narrative like Flying ruined everything. It didn't. Why do you think so many people wanted it back in WoD?
    MMORPG has a meaning. Or had a meaning, once. The open world was part of that. I’m not telling people how to play an MMORPG, I’m saying that WoW would be a better MMORPG if it wasn’t full of people who don’t want to play MMORPGs. You don’t have time to travel from point a to point b? Then why on earth did you pick up an open world game? You’re playing the wrong sort of game.

    I, incidentally, am approximately the most casual player that ever there was. I have been playing classic as much as my time allows since release and am level 54.

    Your second paragraph is unspeakably inane and doesn’t deserve a response.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    I’d probably re-sub to the game for 6 months or so if they took all flight requirements out of the old expansions.

    If they actually added flight to the permanent no-fly zones of the past at the same time, I would probably stay subbed permanently (but one expansion behind). I realize that would never happen though, because Bliz would not want to pay for it and they seem to despise flight... but I’m throwing it out there.

    At the very least, I hope they remove the restriction on BfA when the next expansion comes out... if so, I might come back for a short stretch and do that expansion.

    Anyway, how do you feel about it?
    Flying hasn't been fun since WoD; MoP was the last time I was able to fly in current content... AND IT SUCKS!!! Pathfinder is such a chore; and now that I CAN fly in WoD; I have no reason to go there -_- gee thanks.

  19. #139
    The game isnt a runing simulator...
    I spend 30 minutes driving home from work, having to then spend another 5 minutes to walk over to the place i want to play in, then 5 minutes back, then 5 minutes to the next, etc just means im playing the game less.

    Now that the Flight Whistle is gone, I have spent more time away from my PC than ever since my Hearth has 5 mins left on it, I may as well go do something in real life and just hearth since it would take me that long to get back if i ran.

    Having to spend 5 minutes running to a location before I can actually play the game isnt fun, its tedious.
    I've finished ALL the content, I have Loremaster, Exploration and almost every single misc achievement in Shadowlands. Forcing me to spend more time getting to a location than it takes to finish a task at this point is just forcing me to reconsider spending my time doing it.



    - Things were great in BC. Zones were built for walking. They were also build with Flying only locations that were almost secret until you got flying.
    - LK forced you to level up before you could fly, the first zones were built as walking zones, but large enough flying was helpful. The end zones were built for flying.
    - Cata assumed you had flying from the start. Some zones it was almost mandatory. They built them with having it in mind.
    - MOP did the same as LK. No flying until you were max, most zones were huge and designed for walking.
    - WOD is where things went wrong. They removed flying and purposly made the zones without it mind. They made the zones smaller so that flying was useless but people got bored and tired of having to spend their valuable time NOT playing the game, but getting to the game.
    - Legion, BFA and Shadowlands now have Pathfinder.

    By the time pathfinder comes along, I'm already bored. I have already done EVERYTHING. I dont mind being forced to walk for the sake of 'experiencing' the game properly. But once ive done that, I should be able to fly. Forcing me to wait is just overkill. My options are to either spend twice/thirce/etc as much time doing World Quests for Anima OR unsub and spend the same time when i can fly for 3 times the rewards.


    Pathfinder should be an obtainable goal in 9.0. It can/should require a lot of work, could be a long ass questline that has you participate in everything available.

    Either way, the people who dont want to fly have to understand that they are the vocal minority and are hurting the game. Flying will come wether they complain or not. The more its delayed the more people get bored/tired and unsub, potentially not coming back. Flying is onpar with transmog, its essentially a cosmetic. It doesnt make you stronger, better, get into groups, etc. ALL it does it let you go to the things that actually are game content, faster.


    Dont tell me that 'this is an MMORPG' and that this game isnt for me. Your distored version of an MMORPG is old and harmfull. Nowhere does the rulebook say an MMORPG must force players to get to a location the slow way, reducing the time they actually spend 'playing'. The thing that kills any MMORPG is tedium. Is the time isnt worth the effort, players find somewhere else to play.
    I have a job, a family, a life. I play this game more than i should but my time is still limited and valuable.
    I have played since Classic. I have cleared every raid, completed 90% of every achievement, unlocked every single secret. I play this MMORPG more than most. I enjoy the lore, the stories, the immersion. What I HATE is being forced to slow down arbitrarily just for the sake of bleeding me of my time/money.

  20. #140
    Flying should never have been implemented in the first place. Completely destroys the immersion of the world around us.

    They did make a huge mistake in regards to mobility in Shadowlands though, and that is the lack of a Flightmaster's Whistle, as we had on Legion and BFA. That thing was great.

    So yea, i dislike flying for the game, but i have no issues with the compromise of adding flying later on, whilst keeping the most recent area with no flight till the following patch.

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