View Poll Results: Hindsight is 20/20

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  1. #1
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    For the Forsaken loyalists

    If you are forsaken AND a sylvanas loyalist, would you still remain by her side if you found out she is on the same team as Kelthuzad?
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  2. #2
    Part of me is hoping she doesn't know about Kel'Thuzad, tbh.

  3. #3
    Pit Lord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    why would she be for Kel'thuzad? the entire point of the Quel'dorei genocide was to simply make Kel'thuzad exist again
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    why would she be for Kel'thuzad? the entire point of the Quel'dorei genocide was to simply make Kel'thuzad exist again
    Didn't stop Kael'thas from siding with Kil'jaeden, who ordered the genocide in the first place.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by SirPaper View Post
    Part of me is hoping she doesn't know about Kel'Thuzad, tbh.
    Well she ain’t turning good again purely because of regret - surely she’ll learn of kt and that’s what will make her switch

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Didn't stop Kael'thas from siding with Kil'jaeden, who ordered the genocide in the first place.
    This, magic's a funny thing.
    And we already know death magic is as capable as fel to subvert one's will.
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  7. #7
    Pit Lord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Didn't stop Kael'thas from siding with Kil'jaeden, who ordered the genocide in the first place.
    they didn't know it; they only saw the Undead. No Tichondrius, not demons, no nothing
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    they didn't know it; they only saw the Undead. No Tichondrius, not demons, no nothing
    That's one of the big mysteries left in Warcraft. Did Kael know that Kil'jaeden was the one who masterminded his people's demise? If so and he just didn't care in pursuit of power, all his sympathy points just blew out the window. If not, he becomes an even more tragic character.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  9. #9
    I wish I could say that I'm surprised that they're doing this (conceptually poor) story where Sylvanas discovers that Satan is bad and might not care about self-determination, yet despite having Kel'thuzad on her side, despite making a point of Kel'thuzad's role in her backstory as the cause of the invasion of her kingdom not to mention him being hte number 1 guy responsible for destroying Lordaeron and the one to foil her attempt to kill Arthas years ago, he isn't the cause of her revelation. Instead it's Anduin. But I can't, and no one really should be surprised.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I wish I could say that I'm surprised that they're doing this (conceptually poor) story where Sylvanas discovers that Satan is bad and might not care about self-determination, yet despite having Kel'thuzad on her side, despite making a point of Kel'thuzad's role in her backstory as the cause of the invasion of her kingdom not to mention him being hte number 1 guy responsible for destroying Lordaeron and the one to foil her attempt to kill Arthas years ago, he isn't the cause of her revelation. Instead it's Anduin. But I can't, and no one really should be surprised.
    Allying with teh Jailer is already a step above being casually allied with Kel'thuzad.
    Even if he wasnt directly responsible the Jailer is clearly the man behind hte man for Arthas. Unless Sylvanas had another one of her BfA style moments where her brained was turned off then I don't see why she would be shocked Kel'thuzad is evil when she already has the Jailer right there who couldnt more obviously be the person responsible for her suffering.

    I guess at a stretch one could argue that maybe that is what her look is about when brainwashed Anduin returns. That Sylvanas finally realizes that Arthas was likely also brainwashed and was therefore not fully responsible for her death. But it is a pretty weak justification when she already reenacted her own greatest failure and death with Delaryn.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Allying with teh Jailer is already a step above being casually allied with Kel'thuzad.
    Even if he wasnt directly responsible the Jailer is clearly the man behind hte man for Arthas. Unless Sylvanas had another one of her BfA style moments where her brained was turned off then I don't see why she would be shocked Kel'thuzad is evil when she already has the Jailer right there who couldnt more obviously be the person responsible for her suffering.

    I guess at a stretch one could argue that maybe that is what her look is about when brainwashed Anduin returns. That Sylvanas finally realizes that Arthas was likely also brainwashed and was therefore not fully responsible for her death. But it is a pretty weak justification when she already reenacted her own greatest failure and death with Delaryn.
    Her trusting the Jailer is already nonsense, given how transparently evil he is, but that's inherent in any story where she becomes the lackey of a third party. Kel'thuzad is on a whole other level, given that he's the guy she's in this position in the first place with. And it's not like the story isn't aware of Kel'thuzad's background - at least one intern has read his wowpedia page and Kael'thas' whole conflict is based around what Kel'thuzad did to them, this besides all the other ways he's foiled her personally. Making her the goon of such a deeply bland baddie was always going to be bad, to do this and make her into a naive retard for the sole purpose of giving her a pithy way to go out and build up Satan as playing 5D Backgammon and building up Anduin shows a whole 'nother level.

    We've rehashed the Arthas thing before - suffice to say he was responsible for his actions and the idea that Sylvanas would feel bad about that is absurd. The Jailer didn't mind control Arthas into going on hunts for sports for his people or into torturing Sylvanas for inconveniencing him and in as much as we can weld this nonsense back together with past continuity, the dreadlords who are associates of the Jailer tried to take control of the Scourge and were Arthas' opponents. Anduin being a good boy who's just puppeted around by the devil is analogous to her situation, not Arthas's. But your point is still well noted because sentiments like that and in the Arthas topic are the same root of the thing now strangling Sylvanas's storyline, that being trying to push these characters to be 'good' and hearkening back to their 'good' past when Sylvanas' entire appeal and character is based around what occurs to her afterwards and how it both gels with who she already was and changes her. The same is true of Arthas - Arthas the puppet of the Blue Man would never have a fanbase, Arthas if he actually was a prince in shining armor who did nothing wrong and was forced to do what he did is Anduin. Comparing Halduron's fanbase and Sylvanas's and Arthas's to Anduin should tell you how much the heroic archetype of these characters as compared to that archetype as a build-up to their villainous personalities, which are the actual crux of their appeal and character.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I wish I could say that I'm surprised that they're doing this (conceptually poor) story where Sylvanas discovers that Satan is bad and might not care about self-determination, yet despite having Kel'thuzad on her side, despite making a point of Kel'thuzad's role in her backstory as the cause of the invasion of her kingdom not to mention him being hte number 1 guy responsible for destroying Lordaeron and the one to foil her attempt to kill Arthas years ago, he isn't the cause of her revelation. Instead it's Anduin. But I can't, and no one really should be surprised.
    Oh I'm just curious on how far the rabbit hole goes.

    I mean. For the people who saw it for what it was, it pretty clear what she's doing lol. I just wanna know how crazy are her loyalists.

    As for the story. Well this is really the only option left to Danuser. The only way he can save his waifu is to do the "insanity claim" at court. He has to sell that Sylvanas is stupid as hell, or else she gets pasted (which I don't think he has the backbone to allow).
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Oh I'm just curious on how far the rabbit hole goes.

    I mean. For the people who saw it for what it was, it pretty clear what she's doing lol. I just wanna know how crazy are her loyalists.

    As for the story. Well this is really the only option left to Danuser. The only way he can save his waifu is to do the "insanity claim" at court. He has to sell that Sylvanas is stupid as hell, or else she gets pasted (which I don't think he has the backbone to allow).
    Speaking as a Forsaken and Sylvanas fan, making Sylvanas into a naive retard to build up Blue Satan is a worse story choice than having her be a cartoon evil. There's more technical skill to her interactions with Anduin, her motive is cool, but if anything too charitable for a character who, after her death was always focused on herself first, if anyone else can be helped that's a nice extra. Danuser appreciates the character the same way the Arthas fans clamoring for his redemption appreciate that guy's character - they want that character to be happy and good and succeed, even if that defeats the whole point of the arc up to this point. Making Sylvanas realize two destroyed kingdoms in that maybe Blue Satan is bad because Anduin told her to actually look at the art design of the helltower full of tortured souls is comedy. The crux of Danuser's complete missing of the point is that one line by the God-King about the ranger-general eclipsing the Banshee Queen - Sylvanas doesn't have the wherewithal and role in the setting to allow the men in suits to let him do three straight expansion cinematics with her because of herself as a ranger, anymore than the reason Batman movies are greenlit is because of how much viewers relate to baby Bruce Wayne as an obsessive Zorro fan.

    They did something very similar with Kil'jaeden, though there his ties to Velen were at least sensible given their long time connection, but he was still ultimately used to build up Satan and the result of this we know for ourselves. KJ used to be the demon lord, the deceiver who hunted the draenei to near extinction and engineered the orcs' corruption, who's throw-away scheme with Illidan and the Lich King almost ended the world. Even in Legion he had just finished spending milennia grooming Velen's own son as his lackey just for the moment of satisfaction he'd get out of Velen realizing this as he kills the last of his family. Yet he goes out like a wet fart, feeling sad and sorry and the result was an Argus with no antagonist and Velen having more real catharsis with Talgath than his key opponent, let alone the orcs he never meets. The same awaits current Sylvanas.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Her trusting the Jailer is already nonsense, given how transparently evil he is, but that's inherent in any story where she becomes the lackey of a third party. Kel'thuzad is on a whole other level, given that he's the guy she's in this position in the first place with. And it's not like the story isn't aware of Kel'thuzad's background - at least one intern has read his wowpedia page and Kael'thas' whole conflict is based around what Kel'thuzad did to them, this besides all the other ways he's foiled her personally. Making her the goon of such a deeply bland baddie was always going to be bad, to do this and make her into a naive retard for the sole purpose of giving her a pithy way to go out and build up Satan as playing 5D Backgammon and building up Anduin shows a whole 'nother level.

    We've rehashed the Arthas thing before - suffice to say he was responsible for his actions and the idea that Sylvanas would feel bad about that is absurd. The Jailer didn't mind control Arthas into going on hunts for sports for his people or into torturing Sylvanas for inconveniencing him and in as much as we can weld this nonsense back together with past continuity, the dreadlords who are associates of the Jailer tried to take control of the Scourge and were Arthas' opponents. Anduin being a good boy who's just puppeted around by the devil is analogous to her situation, not Arthas's. But your point is still well noted because sentiments like that and in the Arthas topic are the same root of the thing now strangling Sylvanas's storyline, that being trying to push these characters to be 'good' and hearkening back to their 'good' past when Sylvanas' entire appeal and character is based around what occurs to her afterwards and how it both gels with who she already was and changes her. The same is true of Arthas - Arthas the puppet of the Blue Man would never have a fanbase, Arthas if he actually was a prince in shining armor who did nothing wrong and was forced to do what he did is Anduin. Comparing Halduron's fanbase and Sylvanas's and Arthas's to Anduin should tell you how much the heroic archetype of these characters as compared to that archetype as a build-up to their villainous personalities, which are the actual crux of their appeal and character.
    The problem at the center of this though is that Sylvanas is already far more evil than Arthas ever was. Arthas may have gone around wantonly killing people, but at least he didnt knowingly send them to superhell then ally with Satan to commit omnicide.

    Why should Sylvanas actually really care about being allied with Kel'thuzad at this point? She clearly doesnt give a damn about her people.

    I suppose this is just another facet to the schizophrenic writing that is Sylvanas' character.
    If she is truly good at heart then why did she act so transparently evil in BfA, and more to the point, why did she continue helping the Jailer after she got to the Maw and realized what she was actually doing?
    If she is actually evil then why does she act like she has a conscience at times? The old adage of million being a statistic is all well and good but she can clearly directly see all the individual souls being tortured in Torghast.

    It does seem like Blizzard is planning a twist at the end of the Maw raid though, so I guess we will just have to wait and see what the "shocking" twist will end up being.
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  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Her trusting the Jailer is already nonsense, given how transparently evil he is, but that's inherent in any story where she becomes the lackey of a third party. Kel'thuzad is on a whole other level, given that he's the guy she's in this position in the first place with. And it's not like the story isn't aware of Kel'thuzad's background - at least one intern has read his wowpedia page and Kael'thas' whole conflict is based around what Kel'thuzad did to them, this besides all the other ways he's foiled her personally. Making her the goon of such a deeply bland baddie was always going to be bad, to do this and make her into a naive retard for the sole purpose of giving her a pithy way to go out and build up Satan as playing 5D Backgammon and building up Anduin shows a whole 'nother level.

    We've rehashed the Arthas thing before - suffice to say he was responsible for his actions and the idea that Sylvanas would feel bad about that is absurd. The Jailer didn't mind control Arthas into going on hunts for sports for his people or into torturing Sylvanas for inconveniencing him and in as much as we can weld this nonsense back together with past continuity, the dreadlords who are associates of the Jailer tried to take control of the Scourge and were Arthas' opponents. Anduin being a good boy who's just puppeted around by the devil is analogous to her situation, not Arthas's. But your point is still well noted because sentiments like that and in the Arthas topic are the same root of the thing now strangling Sylvanas's storyline, that being trying to push these characters to be 'good' and hearkening back to their 'good' past when Sylvanas' entire appeal and character is based around what occurs to her afterwards and how it both gels with who she already was and changes her. The same is true of Arthas - Arthas the puppet of the Blue Man would never have a fanbase, Arthas if he actually was a prince in shining armor who did nothing wrong and was forced to do what he did is Anduin. Comparing Halduron's fanbase and Sylvanas's and Arthas's to Anduin should tell you how much the heroic archetype of these characters as compared to that archetype as a build-up to their villainous personalities, which are the actual crux of their appeal and character.
    I can bet you money they'll retcon the torture of Sylvanas from Arthas.

    Unless they use some other method to explain how Anduin can break control for a split second to realize what he has done and then lose it.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    I can bet you money they'll retcon the torture of Sylvanas from Arthas.

    Unless they use some other method to explain how Anduin can break control for a split second to realize what he has done and then lose it.
    They'll probably retcon all the questionable stuff from Arthas.
    What I could see happening is that the Jailer's mind control can forced like what happened with Anduin, but over time the Jailer's thoughts start influencing the person even when the Jailer is not directly controlling them. That way we could have gradual descent of Anduin as he is slowly corrupted.
    It would definitely be a bit cheap concerning Arthas' character, but I could see it happening, mostly because it is a logical way to make it somewhat work.

    Well either that or Blizzard will just conveniently ignore all the auxilliary parts of Arthas' character after picking up the sword.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    They'll probably retcon all the questionable stuff from Arthas.
    What I could see happening is that the Jailer's mind control can forced like what happened with Anduin, but over time the Jailer's thoughts start influencing the person even when the Jailer is not directly controlling them. That way we could have gradual descent of Anduin as he is slowly corrupted.
    It would definitely be a bit cheap concerning Arthas' character, but I could see it happening, mostly because it is a logical way to make it somewhat work.

    Well either that or Blizzard will just conveniently ignore all the auxilliary parts of Arthas' character after picking up the sword.
    Yeap. And they started this even before anduin. The short story where Darion is considering that is there Bolvar even left under the weight of that helm. Now mind you, of course Darion had no idea about the jailer then, but Blizzard still planted that seed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Speaking as a Forsaken and Sylvanas fan, making Sylvanas into a naive retard to build up Blue Satan is a worse story choice than having her be a cartoon evil. There's more technical skill to her interactions with Anduin, her motive is cool, but if anything too charitable for a character who, after her death was always focused on herself first, if anyone else can be helped that's a nice extra. Danuser appreciates the character the same way the Arthas fans clamoring for his redemption appreciate that guy's character - they want that character to be happy and good and succeed, even if that defeats the whole point of the arc up to this point. Making Sylvanas realize two destroyed kingdoms in that maybe Blue Satan is bad because Anduin told her to actually look at the art design of the helltower full of tortured souls is comedy. The crux of Danuser's complete missing of the point is that one line by the God-King about the ranger-general eclipsing the Banshee Queen - Sylvanas doesn't have the wherewithal and role in the setting to allow the men in suits to let him do three straight expansion cinematics with her because of herself as a ranger, anymore than the reason Batman movies are greenlit is because of how much viewers relate to baby Bruce Wayne as an obsessive Zorro fan.

    They did something very similar with Kil'jaeden, though there his ties to Velen were at least sensible given their long time connection, but he was still ultimately used to build up Satan and the result of this we know for ourselves. KJ used to be the demon lord, the deceiver who hunted the draenei to near extinction and engineered the orcs' corruption, who's throw-away scheme with Illidan and the Lich King almost ended the world. Even in Legion he had just finished spending milennia grooming Velen's own son as his lackey just for the moment of satisfaction he'd get out of Velen realizing this as he kills the last of his family. Yet he goes out like a wet fart, feeling sad and sorry and the result was an Argus with no antagonist and Velen having more real catharsis with Talgath than his key opponent, let alone the orcs he never meets. The same awaits current Sylvanas.
    Perhaps. But I think it might be simpler than that too. Because many joined her in the reasoning that alliance is evil and Sylvanas is good. Well. It's been a fun ride for that roller coaster.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The problem at the center of this though is that Sylvanas is already far more evil than Arthas ever was. Arthas may have gone around wantonly killing people, but at least he didnt knowingly send them to superhell then ally with Satan to commit omnicide.

    Why should Sylvanas actually really care about being allied with Kel'thuzad at this point? She clearly doesnt give a damn about her people.

    I suppose this is just another facet to the schizophrenic writing that is Sylvanas' character.
    If she is truly good at heart then why did she act so transparently evil in BfA, and more to the point, why did she continue helping the Jailer after she got to the Maw and realized what she was actually doing?
    If she is actually evil then why does she act like she has a conscience at times? The old adage of million being a statistic is all well and good but she can clearly directly see all the individual souls being tortured in Torghast.

    It does seem like Blizzard is planning a twist at the end of the Maw raid though, so I guess we will just have to wait and see what the "shocking" twist will end up being.
    Arthas has a much larger body count than Sylvanas and his Scourge made a giant out of dead women and children that were all fully aware as they screamed for you to put them out of their misery. He has done absolutely everything Sylvanas has done + another one in pretty much every aspect and Scholomance alone, which is only one outpost of one aspect of the Scourge dwarfs the entire activity of the R.A.S. over their seventeen year in-game existence. There's much that can be said about Sylvanas, but let's not kid ourselves here.

    Further, the whole gist of Sylvanas's argument and why this motivation would halfway work if it was her own plan rather than some BS Satan told her is that her actions are reversible. Sure, those souls are now burning in hell and sure, it sucks to be them, but once she has the necessary power she'll free them and everyone else into paradise. The complete sociopathy of this kind of thinking where she judges herself as being able to decide that women and children are fine being picked apart by Sauron wannabes plus the iffiness of everyone getting a happily ever after no matter what harm they did in life would already be reason enough for her to be a main antagonist, while also grounding her perspective. The game toys with this perfectly servicable animu tier-goal, but it doesn't go the whole distance because we know that she has no independent plan to actually do this, but is entirely reliant on someone who obviously doesn't give two shits about this. This story is reliant on Sylvanas, an extremely vain and prideful character who's based most of her decisions on what helps her and thinking she knows best, to be both inexplicably trusting and inexplicably deferring to a figure she has no reason to trust. Nevermind what Kel'thuzad did to Lordaeron you can at least say she's past giving a shit about that, what he brought on her alone to get her into this point alone while not being essential to giving her more power like the Jailer should be reason alone for her to conspire to get rid of him. Her not caring about Kel'thuzad because she's already done so much bad shit and is desensitized would be one thing, her not caring about Kel'thuzad but trusting the Jailer and feeling bad about Anduin is quite another.

    @Minikin

    Arthas and Anduin's situations are similar only in terms of visual design. Past that Anduin's basically a sockpuppet whereas Arthas was still lugging his own soul around in Frostmourne and was obviously able to think and act given we have a whole book from his perspective that largely takes place after the fact. Not to say that this discounts the Arthas redemption route, quite the contrary. Their ability to completely miss the point with Sylvanas reinforces that they'll also completely miss the point with Arthas.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-02-21 at 09:30 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    If you are forsaken AND a sylvanas loyalist, would you still remain by her side if you found out she is on the same team as Kelthuzad?
    Why would Kel'thuzad be a factor? If you're a Forsaken and still a loyalist then it doesn't matter who Sylvanus allies with. She's trying to help kill everyone on Azeroth. You have to be insane to still follow her.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Why would Kel'thuzad be a factor? If you're a Forsaken and still a loyalist then it doesn't matter who Sylvanus allies with. She's trying to help kill everyone on Azeroth. You have to be insane to still follow her.
    My character is not insane. Only poor people are insane, he is eccentric.

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