Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ...
4
5
6
7
8
LastLast
  1. #101
    Hmm, they could have also pulled a Piccolo on us, in that the Jailer and the Runecarver are the same person. Whatever they initially were (perhaps that big beard guy) has commited a sin, so the eternal ones split the bad part from his good part, leaving behind the Primus and banishing the tainted remnant to the Maw as the Jailor. And now the bad part is looking for a way to become one with the good part again, hence why the Jailor and the Runecarver seem to overlap in some of their abilities and looks, but aren't complete on their own, and why the Jailor keeps him nice and locked up in his big, bad, Tower, but in a place that doesn't seem to harm him, either, seperated from the "pain and tornment" that's meant to be inflicted upon the prisoners. No wonder his memories were removed, as he's not meant to know who he once was, right? So while we're technically friends with the Runecarver, he'll end up the villain by fusing with the Jailor eventually, returning him to full strength. But that, too, is merely an idea.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Not a bad theory all things considered, especially weighing the runes. One would think the carver of domination runes would be the one capable of jailing the dissidents using controlling runes would be The Jailer.

    But then who is Baldy?

    I have one guess.
    Imagine if it was Arthas and then Slyvanas has a break down that she has been working for him for years. It would explain why the keep/kept stressing that time is different between Azeroth and the Shadowlands because then it'd be possible for it to be Arthas. (Not saying it is, or that I think this thread's OP will even end up accurate, but it's all fun to think about.)
    Last edited by Firefall; 2021-02-25 at 02:45 PM.

  3. #103
    Brewmaster czarek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    zug zug
    Posts
    1,424
    That is interesing idea. Ok runecurver could be warden of the maw and the primus at once ? If we know were actually runecurver is other should known that he is a primus so i think he is not primues it self. But he can be a maw warden.

  4. #104
    Combining a few of these theories, perhaps:

    - Zovaal was the original Arbiter, but began to sort souls not according to their deeds, but according to his desires;

    - Pantheon of Shadowlands realizes the consequences to this, so they imprison him and create a non-living Arbiter (the one we know) that will impartially sort the souls, giving Zovaal's heart-stone thing that is needed to affect the sorting to the new Arbiter;

    - Millennia(?) pass, and through the Nathrezim (thanks to a turned Denathrius), the Jailer attempts to "re-corporealize" himself in the form of Argus;

    - Plan A is disrupted by us killing Argus, but Plan B (maybe the real Plan A?) kicks in: Argus' (really Zovaal's) soul disrupts/shuts down the Arbiter, thereby sending all souls to the Maw, empowering Zovaal;

    - The "keys" are needed for him to finally (re) access Oribos and the Arbiter's sanctum where Zovaal will take back the "sorting stone"

    There are a lot of gaps in here of course, "What about X?", but would Blizzard really get even an inch-deep like this? I doubt it.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    But... why would they imprison someone who is supposed to be the realm's Jailer? Isn't the Jailer supposed to run the prison, not be imprisoned himself?
    This is a concept that is as old as civilization probably. The most notable relatable example would be satan in Christianity. He's kind of a ruler in hell, but at the same time, he's imprisoned there himself

  6. #106
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    I live at a location, somewhere, ya know? :D
    Posts
    11,617
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    Okay so like hear me out

    If The Runecarver is Zovaal.... Could the Jailer be Argus???
    ...

    Go to the corner, Pyromancer. You need to take time, and think about what you said. Go on. To the corner. Right over there!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    This is a concept that is as old as civilization probably. The most notable relatable example would be satan in Christianity. He's kind of a ruler in hell, but at the same time, he's imprisoned there himself
    The Jailer is literally just Dante's Inferno's version of Satan.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Or, at the very least, he's inspired by him.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Nothing implies he was any kind of "Arbiter" before the actual Arbiter. Hell, it's implied that Zovaal wasn't even anything that special before his imprisonment. He was merely a part of the Pantheon of Death, much like how Sargeras was with the Titan Pantheon.

    "whatever’s in her chest doesn’t match her at all but does the Jailers." That doesn't really mean anything outside of the fact that whatever the Arbiter has, is either drained by the fact that she's in a coma, or that she most likely stole it from the Jailer, which is why the Jailer's limited in power right now, and needs the covenant keys to get to her. It's also possibly why him slaying the Arbiter would be extremely catastrophic, outside of the whole "Oh yeah, killing the Arbiter would most likely mean the Purpose and the Cosmic Chart gets smacked across its head".

    You're right on everything else though. Blizzard's straight up stated that the Maw wasn't the Maw before, and that's probably why Korthia exists tbh. Maybe Korthia was what the Maw once was, since it got lost in the In-Between, and is apparently right by the current Maw, and is also a broken fragment of the area.
    What's in her chest is clearly something that belong to Zovaal - anyone can see that. It's almost like the Arbiter was made with that in mind, seeing as her design and that are such a huge similarity between her and The Jailer. The line "death was never meant to be chained" is what draws me towards Zovaal being a massive part of deciding a souls fate before he was imprisoned. I don't think for a second The Maw is what it was originally was, along with The Jailer. Every covenant leader has a part in death, and I don't think that Zovaal was essentially the "devil/satan" of the afterlife.

    I guess time will tell, but this whole story isn't as straight forward or as plain as what Blizz have made it. Whatever Zovaal did I guess we'll find out, but it was obviously big enough that it caused the rest of the covenant leaders to imprison him - which is why I think that whatever he was doing was benefitting him/going against what the rest thought death should be. In his absence I'm guessing the Arbiter was created and that orb thing was placed into her, and thus essentially making her the decider of what happens to souls instead of him. Maybe everything originally went to the original Maw and from there it was decided where souls went - who the fxck knows.

  8. #108
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    I live at a location, somewhere, ya know? :D
    Posts
    11,617
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    What's in her chest is clearly something that belong to Zovaal - anyone can see that. It's almost like the Arbiter was made with that in mind, seeing as her design and that are such a huge similarity between her and The Jailer. The line "death was never meant to be chained" is what draws me towards Zovaal being a massive part of deciding a souls fate before he was imprisoned. I don't think for a second The Maw is what it was originally was, along with The Jailer. Every covenant leader has a part in death, and I don't think that Zovaal was essentially the "devil/satan" of the afterlife.

    I guess time will tell, but this whole story isn't as straight forward or as plain as what Blizz have made it. Whatever Zovaal did I guess we'll find out, but it was obviously big enough that it caused the rest of the covenant leaders to imprison him - which is why I think that whatever he was doing was benefitting him/going against what the rest thought death should be. In his absence I'm guessing the Arbiter was created and that orb thing was placed into her, and thus essentially making her the decider of what happens to souls instead of him. Maybe everything originally went to the original Maw and from there it was decided where souls went - who the fxck knows.
    The Arbiter wasn't made for that purpose. Also, whatever Zovaal did was probably evil asf. Hell, we have clues to just how crazy he is VIA the Enemy Infiltration: Preface book, which was something ordered by the "sire" to supposedly carry out the Jailer's plans. When Zovaal says "Death was never meant to be chained" he's probably just arguing that Death should reign above all other forces within the Cosmic Chart. It's not really crazy there.

    Blizzard's writing here is pretty straight forward now though, come on.

  9. #109
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    7,838
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    Danuser himself?
    I admit I had to giggle like a lil' girl when I read this
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    The Arbiter wasn't made for that purpose. Also, whatever Zovaal did was probably evil asf. Hell, we have clues to just how crazy he is VIA the Enemy Infiltration: Preface book, which was something ordered by the "sire" to supposedly carry out the Jailer's plans. When Zovaal says "Death was never meant to be chained" he's probably just arguing that Death should reign above all other forces within the Cosmic Chart. It's not really crazy there.

    Blizzard's writing here is pretty straight forward now though, come on.
    We know nothing about why and who the Arbiter was made. It's been highly hinted at that death isn't made to work this way, so we'll see.

  11. #111
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    7,838
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    We know nothing about why and who the Arbiter was made. It's been highly hinted at that death isn't made to work this way, so we'll see.
    My take on this is that these Shadowlands are the "machine of death" in its most literal sense, i.e. an artificial creation that modifies the natural order, something created by someone to serve a specific purpose. Given how these First Ones seem to be tied somehow to the Titans, I wouldn't be overly surprised to find out that this massive machine known as the Shadowlands wasn't exactly made with the mortals' best interests in mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  12. #112
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    I live at a location, somewhere, ya know? :D
    Posts
    11,617
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    My take on this is that these Shadowlands are the "machine of death" in its most literal sense, i.e. an artificial creation that modifies the natural order, something created by someone to serve a specific purpose. Given how these First Ones seem to be tied somehow to the Titans, I wouldn't be overly surprised to find out that this massive machine known as the Shadowlands wasn't exactly made with the mortals' best interests in mind.
    The First Ones are tied to every cosmic pantheon. Not just the Titans.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    We know nothing about why and who the Arbiter was made. It's been highly hinted at that death isn't made to work this way, so we'll see.
    But it is. Sylvanas and some others disagreeing with the Purpose doesn't matter when the First Ones specifically made the Arbiter, and potentially influenced each Cosmic Pantheon to keep about and help balance the structure of the entire Cosmos.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriandus View Post
    Combining a few of these theories, perhaps:

    - Zovaal was the original Arbiter, but began to sort souls not according to their deeds, but according to his desires;

    - Pantheon of Shadowlands realizes the consequences to this, so they imprison him and create a non-living Arbiter (the one we know) that will impartially sort the souls, giving Zovaal's heart-stone thing that is needed to affect the sorting to the new Arbiter;

    - Millennia(?) pass, and through the Nathrezim (thanks to a turned Denathrius), the Jailer attempts to "re-corporealize" himself in the form of Argus;

    - Plan A is disrupted by us killing Argus, but Plan B (maybe the real Plan A?) kicks in: Argus' (really Zovaal's) soul disrupts/shuts down the Arbiter, thereby sending all souls to the Maw, empowering Zovaal;

    - The "keys" are needed for him to finally (re) access Oribos and the Arbiter's sanctum where Zovaal will take back the "sorting stone"

    There are a lot of gaps in here of course, "What about X?", but would Blizzard really get even an inch-deep like this? I doubt it.
    Imagine totally forgetting about the Lich King, who was legit made to bring about the Jailer's coming to the mortal realm.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    But it is. Sylvanas and some others disagreeing with the Purpose doesn't matter when the First Ones specifically made the Arbiter, and potentially influenced each Cosmic Pantheon to keep about and help balance the structure of the entire Cosmos.
    It's really not. Or, at least, it's not the way death originally work.

  14. #114
    Blizzard do not write convoluted story lines.

    Sorry.

  15. #115
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    I live at a location, somewhere, ya know? :D
    Posts
    11,617
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's really not. Or, at least, it's not the way death originally work.
    How do you know what "originally" worked? From what we know, it was always this way. The only thing was that the Jailer and the Maw weren't originally what they were. I would imagine that Zovaal thought Death being bound by the Shadowlands and Reality within laws was BS, and therefore tried to "unchain" it by dismantling the other forces, or at the very least by trying to bring Death above the other Cosmic Realms so that it could really thrive, and that led to his imprisonment.

    Him being an "original" Arbiter wouldn't really make sense, due to the fact that the Archon and the Primus both acknowledge him as their "brother". The Arbiter supposedly came before the Pantheon of Death, or at the very least isn't really connected to the Pantheon of Death, family wise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Speaking of which, that reminds me: Is the Arbiter Omniscient?

    - - - Updated - - -



    - - - Updated - - -

    How powerful are the First Ones, even? Cause this looks divine asf...

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Venari tells us to never trust anything locked up in the Maw as they were imprisoned there for a reason.
    But Ve'nari is most likely referencing those imprisoned in the Maw before the Arbiter was taken out. Should Saurfang not be trusted? Rastakan? The Citizens of Teldrassil? All of them are "locked in the Maw" right now simply because they defaulted to there in the absence of the Arbiter.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    But Ve'nari is most likely referencing those imprisoned in the Maw before the Arbiter was taken out. Should Saurfang not be trusted? Rastakan? The Citizens of Teldrassil? All of them are "locked in the Maw" right now simply because they defaulted to there in the absence of the Arbiter.
    She says it during our quest to free the runecarver when we ask her for something to break his chains.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    My take on this is that these Shadowlands are the "machine of death" in its most literal sense, i.e. an artificial creation that modifies the natural order, something created by someone to serve a specific purpose. Given how these First Ones seem to be tied somehow to the Titans, I wouldn't be overly surprised to find out that this massive machine known as the Shadowlands wasn't exactly made with the mortals' best interests in mind.
    That doesn't mean that the "natural" way is necessarily preferable, though.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    She says it during our quest to free the runecarver when we ask her for something to break his chains.
    But you're missing context.... Did the Arbiter send The Rune Carver there? Or did Zovaal have one of his agents kidnap him like Alexandros Mograine was? Especially given the speculation that the Rune Carver is the missing Primus of Maldraxxas.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    But you're missing context.... Did the Arbiter send The Rune Carver there? Or did Zovaal have one of his agents kidnap him like Alexandros Mograine was? Especially given the speculation that the Rune Carver is the missing Primus of Maldraxxas.
    The context is that we are freeing someone. And the Rune Carver has been crafting shit for the Jailer well before the Arbiter broke as he created the helm of domination and Frostmourne.

    Mograine wasn't kidnapped he was tricked like Vyraz did to us.

    The Runecarver being the Primus only works if the Maw time flows a shitload more slowly than the rest of the Shadowlands. I don't even remember if they said the Maw moved more slowly than the rest of the shadowlands. All I remember hearing them say was that time in the Shadowlands moved differently than Azeroth.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •