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  1. #261
    Hunter and Warlock are generally top. Mages sneak in with 2pc T5 and can absolutely top damage until T6 gear starts rolling in. Rogues in Sunwell gear has a higher ceiling then locks too. So they are number 2 on single target very very late in the game.

  2. #262
    1) shadow destro
    2) bm hunter
    3) fire destro

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    the correct answer is the player that knows what they're doing instead of FOTM Rerolling
    Nah. You can be the best Enhancement Shaman player in the world and you still wouldn't beat some of the other DPS specs with players of equal skill. The only way Enhancement Shaman tops the charts is if everyone else was completely dog-shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Nah. You can be the best Enhancement Shaman player in the world and you still wouldn't beat some of the other DPS specs with players of equal skill. The only way Enhancement Shaman tops the charts is if everyone else was completely dog-shit.
    Isnt that exactly what he was saying?

    FYI, over 90% of players are complete dog-shit.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Isnt that exactly what he was saying?

    FYI, over 90% of players are complete dog-shit.
    Then with a number that high you'd be playing with players of equal skill level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Gratlim View Post
    1) shadow destro
    2) bm hunter
    3) fire destro
    That is actually incorrect as with Scorch up -which in a 25 man raid in P1 it should be: Fire > FG > Shadow.

    In P1 I expect the top x3 DPS to be:

    1) Destruction Warlock
    2) BM Hunter
    3) Demonology Warlock
    Last edited by Cempa; 2021-05-01 at 07:10 PM.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    That is actually incorrect as with Scorch up
    Why would any mage play fire in P1 tho.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    That is actually incorrect as with Scorch up -which in a 25 man raid in P1 it should be: Fire > FG > Shadow.

    In P1 I expect the top x3 DPS to be:

    1) Destruction Warlock
    2) BM Hunter
    3) Demonology Warlock
    Yeah i plan on playing Fire Destro in pve and demo drainguard in pvp (DL/SL not Sl/Sl). I put shadow up because i expect people to just stack shadow destro + shadow priests and avoid mage in general (fire mage as well). Shadow just stacks together better. But personal dps fire should be above.
    Last edited by Gratlim; 2021-05-02 at 08:55 PM.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    Why would any mage play fire in P1 tho.
    From Warlock Discord:

    "Warlock: fire vs shadow? Should you have improved scorch support?

    There are two mages spec that can provide scorch support: full fire mage and arcane/fire (arcfire). They will be compared to arcane/frost (arcfrost).

    T4: warlock best simming spec is fire, and mage best simming spec is also fire. It should be noted however than depending on final viability of FG spec in gruul/mag, warlocks could end up going demo spec, at which point mages can do whatever they want.

    T5: in BiS T5, firelock > shadowlock by 80-100 dps. For mages, the choice is between arcfire and arcfrost. Baseline, mages sims indicate that arcfire does 50-60 dps less than arcfrost for reasonable conditions of mana support (spriest, mana tide, 1 innervate, 3 min fight). Arcfire does better in situations where the mage is mana starved (up to near equal dps), and if mana is infinite, arcfrost gets up to about 120 more dps.
    On top of that, if the mage would have never needed to use his filler spell, then adding scorch upkeep is another 50 dps loss (this is only the case in short fights).
    So a mage going arcfire is losing 50-100 dps in normal conditions. Accounting for spriest and affli lock dps lost via isb uptime is another 25-30 raid dps loss. So most of the time, even one lock going fire is enough to make it worthwhile, and 2 firelocks make it unequivocally better, raid dps wise." -Ryusei - 1/40
    Last edited by Cempa; 2021-05-03 at 06:33 AM.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    From Warlock Discord:

    "Warlock: fire vs shadow? Should you have improved scorch support?

    There are two mages spec that can provide scorch support: full fire mage and arcane/fire (arcfire). They will be compared to arcane/frost (arcfrost).

    T4: warlock best simming spec is fire, and mage best simming spec is also fire. It should be noted however than depending on final viability of FG spec in gruul/mag, warlocks could end up going demo spec, at which point mages can do whatever they want.

    T5: in BiS T5, firelock > shadowlock by 80-100 dps. For mages, the choice is between arcfire and arcfrost. Baseline, mages sims indicate that arcfire does 50-60 dps less than arcfrost for reasonable conditions of mana support (spriest, mana tide, 1 innervate, 3 min fight). Arcfire does better in situations where the mage is mana starved (up to near equal dps), and if mana is infinite, arcfrost gets up to about 120 more dps.
    On top of that, if the mage would have never needed to use his filler spell, then adding scorch upkeep is another 50 dps loss (this is only the case in short fights).
    So a mage going arcfire is losing 50-100 dps in normal conditions. Accounting for spriest and affli lock dps lost via isb uptime is another 25-30 raid dps loss. So most of the time, even one lock going fire is enough to make it worthwhile, and 2 firelocks make it unequivocally better, raid dps wise." -Ryusei - 1/40
    I don't think you realize who the people running that discord are.
    Crix, Fierywind - they've been a meme of the priv TBC community for a while now.
    All I'm gonna say is that almost everything that you quoted is wrong.
    Last edited by stevenho; 2021-05-03 at 10:49 PM.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by satella View Post
    Tier 4: Hunter, Warlock, Mage
    Tier 5: Warlock, Mage, Hunter
    Tier 6: Hunter, Warlock, Rogue(with Glaives)
    Pretty much this guy is right, For what i looked at though, Elemental shamans might be better then mages in Tier 4, but Looses out in Tier 5

  12. #272
    Dreadlord Rageadon's Avatar
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    Wont matter what you bring, its gonna be like classic all over again

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    I don't think you realize who the people running that discord are.
    Crix, Fierywind - they've been a meme of the priv TBC community for a while now.
    All I'm gonna say is that almost everything that you quoted is wrong.
    I also hate how the tone in that entire disc is “every class is here to make us better”, while they’ll be at the sole mercy of the threat cap.

    Cant wait to FD every 30s as Tanks are gearing and watch the Warlock pucker-butt as they hope SS doesn’t resist/is on CD.

  14. #274
    A flat Earth person are you? I not only have played live, I do theory craft and use data and sims and evidence, unlike you. Feel free to go look up the old Elitist Jerks archived forums .. Or they also are a meme in your flat earth world?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Not sure why you seem to dislike Warlock class but you are correct in that 'threat' management is key to TBC Warlock and will be one of the dividers between good and great 'locks.'

    As some one who played TBC, it was a hard lesson to learn, but once one gets the 'fell' of the class, you know how to push the upper limits without pulling agro. If you do, shatter/BoP. Shatter became part of my rotation, when shadow took over Flame/Fire late T5/T6 and I was using CoD (Curse of Doom hitting well over 10k-14k). At that point I had to save shatter -entire expansion it got resisted once, on Brut in SW right after a shatter .. Yes I died).
    Last edited by Cempa; 2021-05-04 at 09:40 AM.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    Shatter became part of my rotation
    A 5 minute CD became part of your ROTATION.
    I can see how you like it in the warlock discord KEKW.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    A 5 minute CD became part of your ROTATION.
    I can see how you like it in the warlock discord KEKW.
    You not only have the social skills of a baboon, you reject facts/reason and have become no more than a troll. I hope moderates deal with you now go away.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    You not only have the social skills of a baboon, you reject facts/reason and have become no more than a troll. I hope moderates deal with you now go away.
    You correlated someone not liking Warlocks/Warlock Discord to being a flat earther. You missed the point entirely that Warlocks are at the mercy of the threat cap where Hunters are not. Then you copy-pasta’d some shit from Discord that wrongly cites viability of Fire Mage in the context of buffing Fire Destro instead of answering why the fuck a Mage would play Fire in T4 in the first place (they won’t).

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    You correlated someone not liking Warlocks/Warlock Discord to being a flat earther. You missed the point entirely that Warlocks are at the mercy of the threat cap where Hunters are not. Then you copy-pasta’d some shit from Discord that wrongly cites viability of Fire Mage in the context of buffing Fire Destro instead of answering why the fuck a Mage would play Fire in T4 in the first place (they won’t).
    While content will get cleared, raids that enjoy optimizing raid performance will more than likely have x2 mages of both specs, arcane/fire and both would have Icy Veins. Again, we don't know how long fights will last -tuning. Most guilds are casual, and for them there is no optimal setup and content will get cleared even with 3 or 4 or 5 mages!

    T4 Fire is the best spec hands down, this is from live to p servers to beta, if you don't know that I advise you to go follow the streamers and raiders who are doing the content and who have raided. The 'flat earther' refuses to listen or accept any of that .. Hey, spec Frost and RP to your hearts content, and content will get cleared.

    Going Arcane at start you will have a hard time with mana support .. And thus under perform.

    Warlocks and Mages will be close until SW -then mages crap out towards the end. Hunters are broken OP all TBC. Group setup/mana support/lust-multiple lust make a massive difference.

    Raid DPS wise it is a no brainier, near 400 DPS more per destro warlock IF you are a raid optimized 'raid.' T4/T5 have arcfire mage until they get set bonus, at which point locks would go shadow .. Come SW locks would move back to fire depending on gear.

    Lastly, pets/demons are currently bugged to hell on Beta. Assuming that gets fixed, Demo (FG) is a legit T4.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    While content will get cleared, raids that enjoy optimizing raid performance will more than likely have x2 mages of both specs, arcane/fire and both would have Icy Veins. Again, we don't know how long fights will last -tuning. Most guilds are casual, and for them there is no optimal setup and content will get cleared even with 3 or 4 or 5 mages!

    T4 Fire is the best spec hands down, this is from live to p servers to beta, if you don't know that I advise you to go follow the streamers and raiders who are doing the content and who have raided. The 'flat earther' refuses to listen or accept any of that .. Hey, spec Frost and RP to your hearts content, and content will get cleared.

    Going Arcane at start you will have a hard time with mana support .. And thus under perform.

    Warlocks and Mages will be close until SW -then mages crap out towards the end. Hunters are broken OP all TBC. Group setup/mana support/lust-multiple lust make a massive difference.

    Raid DPS wise it is a no brainier, near 400 DPS more per destro warlock IF you are a raid optimized 'raid.' T4/T5 have arcfire mage until they get set bonus, at which point locks would go shadow .. Come SW locks would move back to fire depending on gear.

    Lastly, pets/demons are currently bugged to hell on Beta. Assuming that gets fixed, Demo (FG) is a legit T4.
    Once again - you have no clue what you're talking about and you have not played any serious prv guilds and you can't link your logs to support the BS that you're spilling here.
    All you can do is quote warlock discord ran by meme crew.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    While content will get cleared, raids that enjoy optimizing raid performance will more than likely have x2 mages of both specs, arcane/fire and both would have Icy Veins. Again, we don't know how long fights will last -tuning. Most guilds are casual, and for them there is no optimal setup and content will get cleared even with 3 or 4 or 5 mages!

    T4 Fire is the best spec hands down, this is from live to p servers to beta, if you don't know that I advise you to go follow the streamers and raiders who are doing the content and who have raided. The 'flat earther' refuses to listen or accept any of that .. Hey, spec Frost and RP to your hearts content, and content will get cleared.

    Going Arcane at start you will have a hard time with mana support .. And thus under perform.

    Warlocks and Mages will be close until SW -then mages crap out towards the end. Hunters are broken OP all TBC. Group setup/mana support/lust-multiple lust make a massive difference.

    Raid DPS wise it is a no brainier, near 400 DPS more per destro warlock IF you are a raid optimized 'raid.' T4/T5 have arcfire mage until they get set bonus, at which point locks would go shadow .. Come SW locks would move back to fire depending on gear.

    Lastly, pets/demons are currently bugged to hell on Beta. Assuming that gets fixed, Demo (FG) is a legit T4.
    95th+ percentile logs will be Arcane and that’s all anyone’s going to care about.

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