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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    95th+ percentile logs will be Arcane and that’s all anyone’s going to care about.
    Karazahn Arcane might get away with it in most of the encounters depending if the DPS can pump and end the fight quick enough (2min to 3min and Arcane is fully OOM). Longer fights like Netherspite, Nightbane as well as Shade would be an issue for Arcane. In 25 man, without set bonus+Shade of Aran Trinket (Pendant of the Violet Eye), Arcane will fully oom on ALL encounters before boss is dead.

    Here is what is going to happen: Raid leader will see logs, as well as own experience and realize Arcane mages need specific items to be able to add value.

    Fresh Mage plays Frost --> Spellstrike + Spellfire Mage goes Fire. x2 Set T5+Trinket they go Arcane.

    Only reason a mage goes Arcane from day x1 is if they are lazy and don't want to put in effort to craft Spellfire. And guilds will realize the value of having Scorch up and will have x1 Mage do so.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    Ele Sham is good for like... half of T4. Then SP scaling issues slap ‘em back to the mid-low placement.

    You’ll still have 1. You won’t NOT clear content by bringing more. But let it be clear that every one beyond the first would have been better served, threat cap or not, with a Warlock or Hunter. In every tier.
    You'll always want 1 Elemental Shaman regardless because they hugely buff the warlocks.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    Once again - you have no clue what you're talking about and you have not played any serious prv guilds and you can't link your logs to support the BS that you're spilling here.
    All you can do is quote warlock discord ran by meme crew.
    I played TBC, as well as play on beta. I also follow high end raiders and streamers on Twitch -clearly you have no interest in progressing a positive discussion and care not about these forums, the readers or the game. Mediocre at best ..
    Last edited by Cempa; 2021-05-05 at 09:42 AM.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    I played TBC, as well as play on beta. I also follow high end raiders and streamers on Twitch -clearly you have no interest in progressing a positive discussion and care not about these forums, the readers or the game. Mediocre at best ..
    Oh you follow people on twitch... Got it.
    Anyway, I'm here to warn players about guys like you - spreading misinformation.
    There will be no fire mages and warlocks in any competent guilds, and its been the case for many years https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Ranking/Default.aspx

  5. #285
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    Oh you follow people on twitch... Got it.
    Anyway, I'm here to warn players about guys like you - spreading misinformation.
    There will be no fire mages and warlocks in any competent guilds, and its been the case for many years https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Ranking/Default.aspx
    well your link had it filtered to vanilla. when i switched it to TBC... all i see are locks, mages, few hunters and 1 random warrior

    Then again, people are better at min/maxing now than they were before
    Black Dragonflight: Kalel (Paladin), Ramage (Death Knight), Liquidc (Warrior), Aerynsùn (Monk), Nahdar (Shaman), Tokare (Druid), Jenista (Priest), Anabolix (Rogue), Findecano (Hunter), Lohra (Mage), Luminya (Warlock)

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Swolltitan View Post
    well your link had it filtered to vanilla. when i switched it to TBC... all i see are locks, mages, few hunters and 1 random warrior

    Then again, people are better at min/maxing now than they were before
    I'm not sure how your comment fits into what we were discussing.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    Oh you follow people on twitch... Got it.
    Anyway, I'm here to warn players about guys like you - spreading misinformation.
    There will be no fire mages and warlocks in any competent guilds, and its been the case for many years https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Ranking/Default.aspx
    I just used the link YOU shared and it proves mages are playing FIRE and ARCANE+FIRE. So thanks for that lolz.

    As you all will see the point was T4/T5 Fire is the best spec in most guilds. The reason I say most guilds and not all is because while Arcane offers the highest damage possible it is gear setup dependent as well as CD dependent and external mana support dependent (mana drums/shadow priest/mana tide/innervate).

    Guilds that are able to provide Arcane mages all that support should see a DPS increase over fire. Most guilds are casual and this is 'classic' and would opt for a versatile build like Fire.

    So, here is the link that YOU shared but for SSC (T5) raid: https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Default.aspx

    Here is the first couple players I looked at (there are hundreds of player, so feel free to browse):

    https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=1683923 (Fire)
    https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=1703049 (Fire)

    Like I said, some guilds are min-max mentality and will run arcane early as they know bosses will go down in minutes. Most guilds will need a few more minutes and avoid Arcane until the mage has x2 set bonus and the trinket. And if on any given raid day the Shadow Priest/inner/mana drums/inner/mana tide is not available .. Guess that Arcane mage respecs or tanks damage .. Just don't use Shadow Wand and burn iSB stacks, which brings down raid DPS
    Last edited by Cempa; 2021-05-05 at 07:08 PM.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    Guilds that are able to provide Arcane mages all that support should see a DPS increase over fire. Most guilds are casual and this is 'classic' and would opt for a versatile build like Fire.

    [...]
    Like I said, some guilds are min-max mentality and will run arcane early as they know bosses will go down in minutes.
    First - are we playing the same game of Classic? Because there’s zero chance most competitive guilds aren’t going to strive for min-max.

    Competition for T4 token is low. Gloves/Legs I think for Lock? Hunters run Beastlord. Mages will get 2-set extremely quickly.

    This sounds so familiar from the beginning of Classic where people think the baseline is going to be anything less than optimal. MOST guilds are going to run with the 25 they have online. MOST guilds are going to clear content. Framing the discussion around “the safe way” is just pointless because truthfully you don’t need to care about any of this to clear this content.

    I’ll give you Kara being more Frost because really 90% of the overall time spent is on trash. But then again, when’s the last time anyone asked about optimizing for UBRS?

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    depends on tier and encounters.

    wanna know statistics back in 2007 ? just have a look at: https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Ranking

    overall in the grand scheme of things and overall the whole TBC xpac in general you can not go much wrong with:

    warlock (top all the time) most of time king in AoE
    hunter (superior in first half and still very very good in second half) most of time king in ST
    mage (a bit slow starting but soon enough at top with warlock)

    just for completeness:

    every class is fine in TBC. shamans are used as hell cause of BL is buffing 5man group in raids without CD. so 4+ shamans for every raid. also moonkin brings nice stuff on the table, as well as the mana battery aka shadow priest. druid tank is excellent (foremost later the xpac) and has superior offspec feral dps, makes him the best 3rd tank possible. why i say this ? yes, a moonkin, SP, Ret and others will not top hunter, mage, lock. also warri and rogue has their encounters they shine but in the long run will not top mage, lock and hunter over the whole xpac. BUT: when i say „top“ we talk about waaaaay smaller gaps than classic and waaaay more need for all the classes, cause of their great support (totems i.e.).

    in short: play what you like. everyone is needed and RL will look in the same manner at the buffs and support you bring, as they look on the raw dps. if you just wanna top the meters for personal penis enlargememt its safe to stick with mage, lock or hunter.

    side node: remember there is no dual spec in TBC. just sayin. also, if playing a pure dps, think about the spec that is top notch and if you like that spec. i.e. as mage frost is more of pvp. as hunter you wanna go BM for a good while. and so on. just to keep in mind.

    - - - Updated - - -



    until that point they had a happy time together with locks (and here and then hunters). the question is, how much of an impact has sunwell for a personal descission. gruul, mag, kara, ssc, tk, bt, hyal, sunwell. many raids in TBC.

    - - - Updated - - -



    EXACTLY this.

    - - - Updated - - -



    exactly. ranges have encounter wise an easier time in TBC and ranged classes where a bit more wanted therefore back in the days. also rogue needs a while to come up with gear. both melees shine later very well on some/many encounters, foremost warri. so it is no problem in any way to play these 2. its just that mage, hunter, lock have a bit easier time and are overall a bit more wanted and overall a bit higher a bit earlier.

    but when looking on https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Ranking you can clearly see how warriors later on specific encounters can DESTROY
    I would rank druid tanks higher, assuming they got the right gear. We had a druid tank that ran with us from Kara on and she was fantastic. The key was to get lots and lots of pvp gear. I dont remember what skill it was but they benefitted from crit alot, allowing them to generate massive amounts of threat, do great dps as a tank and had a ton of dodge. We were doing the first boss in Kara and his heavy sword attack *the one you usually wanted a warrior to disarm him on) was missing her most of the time. It got to the point where my main healer was asking if he could heal another target because he was getting bored. I was a SV hunter through all of TBC so the druid tank and I formed an arena team, with some others in the guild. We didnt do great but we were able to farm a fair amount of arena gear. That gear was allowing me to top BM hunters and her to tank nearly everything without issue.

    So with just raid gear I would say maybe the number three spot, but if they had a bunch of pvp gear move them up to number two.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonhawk View Post
    I would rank druid tanks higher, assuming they got the right gear. We had a druid tank that ran with us from Kara on and she was fantastic. The key was to get lots and lots of pvp gear. I dont remember what skill it was but they benefitted from crit alot, allowing them to generate massive amounts of threat, do great dps as a tank and had a ton of dodge. We were doing the first boss in Kara and his heavy sword attack *the one you usually wanted a warrior to disarm him on) was missing her most of the time. It got to the point where my main healer was asking if he could heal another target because he was getting bored. I was a SV hunter through all of TBC so the druid tank and I formed an arena team, with some others in the guild. We didnt do great but we were able to farm a fair amount of arena gear. That gear was allowing me to top BM hunters and her to tank nearly everything without issue.

    So with just raid gear I would say maybe the number three spot, but if they had a bunch of pvp gear move them up to number two.
    yeah, feral druids (bear and cat is one tree) shined A LOT in TBC. played myself one. later in the game, with apropriate gear you are a dodge MACHINE and one of the most favorites tank. until you get to that point, you have fantastic dps, cause your tank and cat tree is one tree. ppl often forget that in TBC dualspec not exists and Feral is the ONLY tank that can dps too. therefore, you ALWAYS got a spot as the filler tank, the off tank, the adds tank or the 3rd tank, cause you can dps while not tanking. the high dps, the offspec, the CR, the utility ... all this made bears great in the first half of the xpac. in the second half they were absurd main tanks, cause of high dodge.

    or in short: as feral druid you CANT go wrong in TBC. impossible. at least this was my experience at that time (i played competitive in top5 realm guild Bear Druid, Heal Druid and Lock and also had paladin, priest and shaman as alt).

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Cempa View Post
    I just used the link YOU shared and it proves mages are playing FIRE and ARCANE+FIRE. So thanks for that lolz.

    As you all will see the point was T4/T5 Fire is the best spec in most guilds. The reason I say most guilds and not all is because while Arcane offers the highest damage possible it is gear setup dependent as well as CD dependent and external mana support dependent (mana drums/shadow priest/mana tide/innervate).

    Guilds that are able to provide Arcane mages all that support should see a DPS increase over fire. Most guilds are casual and this is 'classic' and would opt for a versatile build like Fire.

    So, here is the link that YOU shared but for SSC (T5) raid: https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Default.aspx

    Here is the first couple players I looked at (there are hundreds of player, so feel free to browse):

    https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=1683923 (Fire)
    https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=1703049 (Fire)

    Like I said, some guilds are min-max mentality and will run arcane early as they know bosses will go down in minutes. Most guilds will need a few more minutes and avoid Arcane until the mage has x2 set bonus and the trinket. And if on any given raid day the Shadow Priest/inner/mana drums/inner/mana tide is not available .. Guess that Arcane mage respecs or tanks damage .. Just don't use Shadow Wand and burn iSB stacks, which brings down raid DPS
    It's funny that in the 2 days since you wrote it the site got rid of the old data and switched to the alpha version which they rolled out a year ago and no one was using. So can;t link anything cause there is nothing there

    Anyway, there will be no fire mages in any competent guilds, that much is 100%.
    And your comments are going to age very badly

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    It's funny that in the 2 days since you wrote it the site got rid of the old data and switched to the alpha version which they rolled out a year ago and no one was using. So can;t link anything cause there is nothing there

    Anyway, there will be no fire mages in any competent guilds, that much is 100%.
    And your comments are going to age very badly
    Mage discord disagrees with you .. Kara beta runs disagree with you .. Mages who ran kara are very clear that when with a competent group and moving fairy quick Fire >> Arcane. Now you can play Arcane regardless of facts and what other mages are saying and completely detached from sims .. You pay the sub

    Come 25 man it will most likely be Fire for speed runs .. Arcane simply needs to sit and drunk much more ..

    Last point, some/many Mages don't enjoy the one button Arcane Blast game play .. They enjoy Fire much more .. Hey thanks for the bump to my post.
    Last edited by Cempa; 2021-05-08 at 08:13 PM.

  13. #293
    Warlock, Mage and Hunter are all very strong in TBC for PvE.

    Ironically these 3 classes are also strong throughout the entire 17 year history of World of Warcraft as well. You can never go wrong with these 3 during any expansion.

    Melee is a bit weaker at the start of TBC but gets better up towards the end.

    Due to how TBC is designed however you can't really go wrong with anything, as almost everything brings useful utility for PvE.

  14. #294
    Most hunters are going to be awful and either or a combination of:
    consistently let their pet die
    Clip auto shots
    Mistime their mana usage to zero out as the boss dies

    So sims are going to be very different than results. Still top tier but not godlike classic warrior

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