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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

    In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
    People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

    Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
    So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

    I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?
    There's too many difficulty levels, just like raids. WoW population started its decline at the end of Wrath when they went bullheaded crazy with this; Trial of the Crusader started it, and gearscore came with it. Everything I loathe about this game pinpointed to a single design shift.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by cozzri View Post
    There's too many difficulty levels, just like raids. WoW population started its decline at the end of Wrath when they went bullheaded crazy with this; Trial of the Crusader started it, and gearscore came with it. Everything I loathe about this game pinpointed to a single design shift.
    You are right about difficulty levels, but in a gear based game how do you “define” who “deserves” a certain level of gear without using difficulty levels?

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by cozzri View Post
    There's too many difficulty levels, just like raids. WoW population started its decline at the end of Wrath when they went bullheaded crazy with this; Trial of the Crusader started it, and gearscore came with it. Everything I loathe about this game pinpointed to a single design shift.
    There is absolutely no evidence to support that the amount of difficulties in raiding has anything to do with wows declining population.

    Something people very rarely complain about in wow is that it has multiple raid difficulties. Yet you see angry posts on this forum complaining about wow relates stuff every single minute of the day

  4. #304
    Epic!
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    Plenty of people enjoy M+.
    Plenty of people do not enjoy conquering hard content and getting a pittance of a currency that has nothing to do with character advancement.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    People would enjoy M+ if it was the Legion-era AoEfest instead of BfA metaslavery or SL brickwall simulator
    This lol
    10char

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    There is absolutely no evidence to support that the amount of difficulties in raiding has anything to do with wows declining population.

    Something people very rarely complain about in wow is that it has multiple raid difficulties. Yet you see angry posts on this forum complaining about wow relates stuff every single minute of the day
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    There is absolutely no evidence to support that the amount of difficulties in raiding has anything to do with wows declining population.

    Something people very rarely complain about in wow is that it has multiple raid difficulties. Yet you see angry posts on this forum complaining about wow relates stuff every single minute of the day
    No, the main complaint is about gear most of the time. Having 15 difficulty levels for dungeons, 4 levels for raids, and all of the in-between ilvls for items; The randomness of it just makes it a tiresome system. Getting best-in-slot items feels like such a chore. Getting items doesn't feel rewarding when you already had the same exact item only with 5 less iLvL. I remember the outcry when Blizzard decided to have normal and heroic dungeons have the same exact loot tables, it's boring grinding iLvLs.

  7. #307
    Considering this is all just conjecture, I think these dungeons are the worst dungeons of any expansion. Most of this in my opinion spawns from the covenant dungeon abilities, half the dungeon kills itself given you have someone of the correct covenant, if you don't your throwing.

    As much as I enjoy M+ and building a team and trying to learn each others habits and pushing to be competitive I think it's bad for the health of the game. The content is requiring your player base to adhere to the most competitive decision making regarding class/spec/cov combinations. To be more clear, the content doesn't require the most competitive decisions innately in a vacuum, but when every person who plays the game actually has to deal with it socially the difference is nominal.

    Stepping away from the game for the first time since Vanilla to play other games the issues of modern WoW are glaring. Too many half executed ideas, you wanna make a theme park mmo where your character just tries to be competitive in instanced game modes sure lean into that and make every decision towards that. Want to be an RPG ok sure get rid of Arena, M+, and 4 versions of Raids. Being both is like eating a spaghetti burrito. I'm not even sure people by the game to play it anymore as much as they buy the hope it's as good as legion or wotlk.

  8. #308
    The core of the issue feels like they made the part of the game your normal population plays in (2 to 15s) a little to competitive. I mean if professional MDI runners are doing +18s at an event they could win money at while being featured on a broadcast than a kid doing +15s for the loot probably shouldn't be so close that level of competition. Sure, 15s shouldn't be total pushovers that you can drag your mom and girl friend along with while they watch netflix and cash out in time. Of course not. But they probably shouldn't be bumping up few levels below the MDI competition either. It just feels like the scale was tilted to 11 and when it if was at 8 or 9 it would have been alright.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

    In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
    People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

    Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
    So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

    I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?
    i have „good“ new for you: just read the 9.0.5 release notes, to get a huuuge „proof“ of what you are saying.

    btw: watch closely /2 the next few days/weeks when booster spams are exploding and Blizz is jumping happily around, when they sell a million Tokens and getting 7 bugs by doing nothing, for every Token ever passing the AH.

  10. #310
    I enjoyed M+ until they nerfed the loot into the ground. Higher Difficulty =/= Better Loot right now.

    Blizzard is bottle necking people into raiding again if they want you to get better gear, instead of M+ being an alternative.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by flaggel View Post
    I enjoyed M+ until they nerfed the loot into the ground. Higher Difficulty =/= Better Loot right now.

    Blizzard is bottle necking people into raiding again if they want you to get better gear, instead of M+ being an alternative.
    Mythic+ is by far the easiest and most accessible path to 226 gear.

  12. #312
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skillslam View Post
    M+ is fine. Specs like Ungabungakin having all the utility & damage in the world while other specs beg for invite scraps isn't
    While the community lies in your ear about "bro just play what you want, hehehehehehehe". The whole thing is as disingenuous and selfish as it gets. People don't give a damn if you struggle, they just expect everyone to play an extra 999 hours and reroll to FOTM at the slightest bit of resistance.

  13. #313
    Its honestly alright. I like it, have since Legion. Would have been a blast to experience it with MoP class design though.

  14. #314
    It's never been a surprise that people mostly do activities that give them loot. M+ is relatively new, but we've seen it with PvP a lot. People play more PvP when they're rewarded for it. I'm pretty sure that if there was no loot from raids, much fewer people would do that as well. How is that in any way surprising?

    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Mythic+ is by far the easiest and most accessible path to 226 gear.
    It's easiest and most accessible, but also the slowest of the three paths, since you only get the weekly chest (while in 2100+ arenas you also have a conquest piece every 1-2 weeks, and in mythic raids you get actual loot).

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by cozzri View Post
    No, the main complaint is about gear most of the time. Having 15 difficulty levels for dungeons, 4 levels for raids, and all of the in-between ilvls for items; The randomness of it just makes it a tiresome system. Getting best-in-slot items feels like such a chore. Getting items doesn't feel rewarding when you already had the same exact item only with 5 less iLvL. I remember the outcry when Blizzard decided to have normal and heroic dungeons have the same exact loot tables, it's boring grinding iLvLs.
    I dont see the same threads you do.

    Randomness is a definite problem but it has nothing to do with raid difficulties. People are going to relatively quickly gravitate towards the difficulty that fits them, and then mostly play that difficulty. You could make the argument for m+.

    M+ definitely has its ups and downs. This expansion its been mostly downs due to a combination of little gear/low ilvl(except from the vault which makes no sense) and horriffying balance thats going to come more into focus now that valor and 15+'s are a thing

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    While the community lies in your ear about "bro just play what you want, hehehehehehehe". The whole thing is as disingenuous and selfish as it gets. People don't give a damn if you struggle, they just expect everyone to play an extra 999 hours and reroll to FOTM at the slightest bit of resistance.
    Of course you can play whatever you want, but other people have the exact same right not to play with you. You are not entitled to be invited to other people's group.

    The solution to your non-existing problem is to make your own group and invite other "free spirits" like yourself that have a healthy disdain for those filthy FOTM-people and show them that your free spirit and skill always can beat those FOTM.people!

    Come on! Show us what you are made of!

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Of course you can play whatever you want, but other people have the exact same right not to play with you. You are not entitled to be invited to other people's group.

    The solution to your non-existing problem is to make your own group and invite other "free spirits" like yourself that have a healthy disdain for those filthy FOTM-people and show them that your free spirit and skill always can beat those FOTM.people!

    Come on! Show us what you are made of!
    The problem is blown up this expansion due to the relatively tight timer on +15's and the extremely bad balance of specs in m+.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    The problem is blown up this expansion due to the relatively tight timer on +15's and the extremely bad balance of specs in m+.
    I honestly don't think there's any combo of non meta specs that can't time all +15s. Did one the other day with me a frost dk, a frost mage, and a survival hunter.

    I'm sure you could prot war, mw healer, surv hunter, demo lock, feral druid and still easily get ksm

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Noctiphobia View Post
    It's never been a surprise that people mostly do activities that give them loot. M+ is relatively new, but we've seen it with PvP a lot. People play more PvP when they're rewarded for it. I'm pretty sure that if there was no loot from raids, much fewer people would do that as well. How is that in any way surprising?



    It's easiest and most accessible, but also the slowest of the three paths, since you only get the weekly chest (while in 2100+ arenas you also have a conquest piece every 1-2 weeks, and in mythic raids you get actual loot).
    Yes, a con to being the easiest and most accessible. It’s the slowest to get a full set and most prone to RNG.

  20. #320
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I'm sure you could prot war, mw healer, surv hunter, demo lock, feral druid and still easily get ksm
    And it would be way harder than with a meta combo. Path of least resistance and what not.
    Current state of WoW lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

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