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  1. #341
    I never enjoyed Mythic+, it just makes me not want to play the game, because i don't have much fun.

    I enjoyed more the BC-LK systems, and i did pandaria and WoD challenge modes, but just because i liked the rewards (And i did enjoy it, because i was pursuing something i really wanted that trascended in the game, over seasonal loot).

    But i can be mainly because i don't enjoy how classes work eversince Legion, it's never been the same since then to me.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    The loot droprate in raids is absolute dogshit. Doing M+ is required to get the upgrade options from Vault. And now with the Valor Upgrades, it is even more mandatory to farm M+
    you unlock vault slots from raid too...

  3. #343
    SL has more different characters with a R.io score than the most popular M+ season in Legion, so the premise of this topic is wifully dishonest.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    I get it... they want to create an E-sport out of mythics and pvp... but, you can have other system upgrades too, that don't simply cater to pvp and mythic grinders
    Raiders 100% 226-233ilvl from vault. They also get a chance at 226/233 loot from bosses

    M+ gets 226 ONCE A WEEK with no other chance to get it and JUST FOR A WEEK NOW we get access to 220. Which we need to grind out and upgrade! and if you want a weapon - tough luck, you can't upgrade it a lot because of the upgrade price. So yeah, I think raiders in the last 4 months got more drops from bosses than amount of items "mythic grinders" can upgrade even with full capped valor, not even to max ilvl.

    PvP has overall best reward system which rewards skill and removes all RNG. Amount of items you can get is capped behind currency, but upgrading is not capped so you can upgrade all your gear in a week.

  5. #345
    I like mythic+, I just don't have time to wait 1 hour long to even get an invite for a group. And usually the group either falls apart because of people leaving after one wipe. All that on top of 4 out of 5 times not getting loot, it's not worth the tremendous amount of time it takes.

  6. #346
    It's beyond time that people realise that the sunk cost fallacy is indeed just that; a fallacy. If you no longer enjoy the game, regardless of how much time you've already put into it, stop playing and find something you'll actually enjoy. It's the only way you'll send a message to the people that really control what's going on and hopefully get some positive changes into the game.
    RETH

  7. #347
    Personally I have mixed relation with M+.

    I like the scalable dungeons, yet I don't like the time limit stuff.

    We have a blast with our group of guildies doing them, but if there was not any actual gear reward for it, I doubt we would ever bother doing them (see MoP / WoD challange modes, where gear from the weekly quest was pitiful)

    As for the topic itself - I can imagine most of the people doing M+, do not actually like them. Most raiders in this game are Normal / HC ones, for them M+ vault is the easiest option for decent upgrades - you need to do just +8 to have in your vault something with higher ilvl than HC raid drop, +10 will get you something already 7 ilvl higher than the "main" content you are doing. Yes, PVP can get you better rewards, yet M+ is more straightforward, you just run 1-4 dungs per week, and get the stuff from the vault, and you are done.

    I can imagine many people hating M+ and doing this as a weekly 1-4h chore, just for the gear, as it provides the easiest and highest gear via the vault in regards to other content they are doing (exactly the same situation with mythic raiders hating PVP this expansion but doing it for the vault)

    Doing 4x 8+ keys is way easier and less time consuming for a "standard player" than downing 6 HC bosses, and it gets you better stuff in the vault.

    And the problem is - there is no clear solution for this as you cannot really balance difficulty/reward between raid and m+ where one had 4 levels of difficulty, other at least 15.

    I guess the only decent (yet still wonky) solution would be to have separate gear for raids and M+. Have some system like WoD PVP, where for raids, PVP and outdoors the ilvl would be capped to HC raid level for +15 gear and Mythic raid for +20, but when you put in the key, it would go up to our current m+ gear ilvl based on which key it did drop.

    But then, there would be huge exodus from the mythic dungeons.

  8. #348
    Kill the current system.

    Do the following:
    - while leveling, dungeons only have the "level" difficulty which is scaling
    - at max level, dungeons have four difficulties: "standard" (current m0), "advanced" (current m+4, one affix, no tyrannical or fortified), "hard" (current m+7, two affixed, no tyrannical or fortified), "insane" (current m+10, three affixes, no tyrannical or fortified) and "nightmare" (starting at m+11, four affixes including tyrannical or fortified)
    - "standard", "advanced", "hard" and "insane" offer loot once per week and per difficulty (if you can handle it)
    - "nightmare" does not offer loot
    - no keystone or time limit until "nightmare" (so the four "lesser" difficulties can be played as everyone wants)
    - affixes rotate like they do now

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post

    But then, there would be huge exodus from the mythic dungeons.
    And that's not a problem.

    The thing is that M+ has a huge influx of players because a) it's the best way to gear your character hands down and b) it requires zero commitement, you can just log in whenever and do them.

    On one side, it's an objectively good thing. Makes players way more active (albeit completely antisocial for the most part - which is killing the community from inside) and there's something actually compelling to do anytime you log in. On the other, it's killing the raiding scene. Most players are decked already in gear thus they rush through normal/heroic and the try mythic without the actual skills needed for the most part then immediately leave it because (let's face it) it's too hard or they don't have the will to commit to it.

    The main issue is that you can partake in M+ even at high level without ever setting foot in raid and not only be successful, but also correctly rewarded. The other side doesn't happen - you HAVE to do M+ if you want to raid in a decent way. It's not that raid gear sucks, but gearing up through it is just slow as hell compared to M+. If you decide to run M+ to get your gear, you'll find that you have relatively easy access to 220+ gear, making everything up to HC completely and utterly useless.

    Raid has no impact on the M+ ecosystem. M+ however are destroying any reason to be in raids. Which sucks because while endgame structure is fine per se, the whole thing of "i'll just log in and pug my way for guaranteed gear" is creating a trend of people only playing for themselves in a game whose focus is coordinated group play.

    And i'm not talking about the low % of players that do Mythic raid or 20+ keys, which are obviously coordinated, but about the greatest bulk of people who just becoming unable to create anything that lasts more than 3 months.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    The main issue is that you can partake in M+ even at high level without ever setting foot in raid and not only be successful, but also correctly rewarded. The other side doesn't happen - you HAVE to do M+ if you want to raid in a decent way. It's not that raid gear sucks, but gearing up through it is just slow as hell compared to M+. If you decide to run M+ to get your gear, you'll find that you have relatively easy access to 220+ gear, making everything up to HC completely and utterly useless.

    Raid has no impact on the M+ ecosystem. M+ however are destroying any reason to be in raids. Which sucks because while endgame structure is fine per se, the whole thing of "i'll just log in and pug my way for guaranteed gear" is creating a trend of people only playing for themselves in a game whose focus is coordinated group play.
    That is false. M+ might be best way to gear up pre-raid but "gearing" in m+ is not viable. HC raid drops higher ilvl and you also unlock Vault if you do raids.
    In raids you get Guaranteed weekly 226 + a chance at 226ilvl
    In M+ you get Guaranteed weekly 226 and then nothing UNTIL last week. Now you can get 220ilvl, but you need the item to be dropped and have enough valor to upgrade.

    I personally will be able to upgrade 3 items to 220ilvl if I get a drop at 210 (20 dungeons and counting, did not get those items)
    Are you going to tell me, that raiders did not get 3 items at 226ilvl in the last 3 months of raiding? That puts them above the M+ doers even now, because 226 is higher than what we can upgrade.

    Don't forget the trinkets which we can't get from raid above 213ilvl no matter what I do if I raid HC only while raiders can do a +10 and still get 220ilvl trinket.

    Obviously doing both will gear up you faster, but people who push 15s won't be better geared than Mythic raiders just because we are locket to one item per week and raiders have one item per week PLUS A CHANCE to 226/233.

    PvP is really good gearing system tho. They should have copied that for M+ and maybe your claims would have a leg to stand on.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    And that's not a problem.

    The thing is that M+ has a huge influx of players because a) it's the best way to gear your character hands down and
    ...

    The main issue is that you can partake in M+ even at high level without ever setting foot in raid and not only be successful, but also correctly rewarded. The other side doesn't happen - you HAVE to do M+ if you want to raid in a decent way. It's not that raid gear sucks, but gearing up through it is just slow as hell compared to M+. If you decide to run M+ to get your gear, you'll find that you have relatively easy access to 220+ gear, making everything up to HC completely and utterly useless.

    Raid has no impact on the M+ ecosystem. M+ however are destroying any reason to be in raids. Which sucks because while endgame structure is fine per se, the whole thing of "i'll just log in and pug my way for guaranteed gear" is creating a trend of people only playing for themselves in a game whose focus is coordinated group play.
    ...
    M+ is the best way to get low level epics and the worst way to get max level gear. And by worst I mean it's actually impossible because even if you think you can once-a-week rng yourself to a full set, you still don't get 233 like pvp and raid.

    If you're KSM for 220 loot you're already capable of getting 226 from mythic raid. You don't get 220 just for putting a key in, the same way you don't get 226 just for setting raif to mythic. You still have to do the content.
    Raid(or pvp) is actually completely necessary for M+ at a high level. The ability to absolutely maximize dps to meet timers is dramatically affected by 226 vs 220 gear.

    You say raid has no impact on the m+ ecosystem and yet, if you dont have access to drastically increased 226 loot acquisition, you will be left behind faster than you would as a raider.

    Its true that for early progression, raiders need to fill out slots with M+*, but it's also true that for high keys later on, M+ players have to fill out a lot of slots with 226/233 from raid* (or with the typically BiS unique trinket effects found in many raid tiers).

    *or pvp--because pvp gearing is pretty silly right now. At least raid gives acess to a decent chunk of extra ilvl from non weapon 233 loot.
    SorryNotSorry

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    I like the concept of m+ as well. It reminds me of Zulaman mount runs back in TBC - it was a great experience! The timer makes sure that everyone is concentrated and the group is working according to the plan. It's such a great feeling when you flawlessly and efficiently go from pull to pull.

    At the same time it wasn't really a competitive experience to me and I don't really need high keys for that. I would prefer to keep wiping on +10 with a group of friends rather than do clean +15 with randoms once a week.
    M+ sure would be a lot more fun if it had rewards for beating the timer like mounts, or cool transmog items like challenge modes in MoP/WoD. Honestly, I would prefer challenge mode to come back, the community around that dungeon mode was far better than the toxic BS we have with M+.

  13. #353
    It’s unfortunate that it’s become such a focal point of WoW, because it really emphasizes that wow today is more Diablo 3 than WoW-vanilla. It has more in common than Diablo 3 today than its everquest roots.

    It also contributes to the feeling of everything now being seasonal, like Diablo 3. You can come and go between seasons and be equal to everyone overnight practically. There’s no progression ladder of needing to beat raid A to get to B, B to C, etc.... it’s more of a lobby Diablo mmo arpg today than an mmo RPG

    And every patch the WoW team trends more towards seasonal Diablo 3 inspired content and further away from the true essence of WoW and rpgs

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by cozzri View Post
    M+ sure would be a lot more fun if it had rewards for beating the timer like mounts, or cool transmog items like challenge modes in MoP/WoD. Honestly, I would prefer challenge mode to come back, the community around that dungeon mode was far better than the toxic BS we have with M+.
    I really miss the Challenge Mode sets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedemon View Post
    No. On these forums any updates mean an expansion hint.
    Wrathin comes back? Dragon expansion clearly!
    LK part of a quest? Wotlk 2 clearly!
    Sylvanas working with a death master? Shadowlands clearly!

    At the point we're headed for Wrath of the Shdowlands Dragon Isles Lich and tinkers.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    SL has more different characters with a R.io score than the most popular M+ season in Legion, so the premise of this topic is wilfully dishonest.
    Maybe R.io just got way more popular since Legion, not M+...

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    Maybe R.io just got way more popular since Legion, not M+...
    I doubt that many people would be doing mythics if it wasn't the loot pinata of SL

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    I doubt that many people would be doing mythics if it wasn't the loot pinata of SL
    Legion's M+ was more rewarding than SL M+ (one more item, titanforge, possibility to drop legendaries, artifact power).

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    Legion's M+ was more rewarding than SL M+ (one more item, titanforge, possibility to drop legendaries, artifact power).
    I dunno... maybe there were more pieces, but were they as strong ?

    Doing a +5 HoA grants us a 210 ilvl in the vault.... c'mon man... that's way too strong for that level of content... +5 HoA isn't much different from normal WoD heroics

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    I dunno... maybe there were more pieces, but were they as strong ?

    Doing a +5 HoA grants us a 210 ilvl in the vault.... c'mon man... that's way too strong for that level of content... +5 HoA isn't much different from normal WoD heroics
    Legion M+ (to get the highest reward in the cache) was piss easy compared to SL M+ (hello arcane torrent and aoe silence) and the reward structure was more generous than in SL.

    The main difference is that you had to raid in Legion to get the tier sets and that M+ complemented the raids. While in BfA and SL, M+ can be a totally viable and alternative gearing path.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2021-03-18 at 05:06 PM.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    Legion M+ was piss easy compared to SL M+ and the reward structure was more generous than in SL.
    I liked the one Mythic+ chest reward.. Made things simpler. They only had to fix the whole repetitive gear dropping and would be fine by me.. Now I'm feeling forced to do 10/10 to maximize my chance because you know, two options is still frustrating because it's always repetitive stuff
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedemon View Post
    No. On these forums any updates mean an expansion hint.
    Wrathin comes back? Dragon expansion clearly!
    LK part of a quest? Wotlk 2 clearly!
    Sylvanas working with a death master? Shadowlands clearly!

    At the point we're headed for Wrath of the Shdowlands Dragon Isles Lich and tinkers.

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