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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Even in untimed dungeons you are screwing over the team by stepping away. Most dungeon timers are like what? 35 mins? You should be able to hold your bladder for that long. When you step away from a dungeon for 5 mins, that's 4 ppl being forced to do nothing while they wait and hope you return. The timer keeps ppl actually playing the game.

    If they remove the timer, and make dungeons "harder", you'll reach the unfun pt of waiting for cds every pull. The timer keeps you engaged and actually playing the game.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Id be ok in theory with a queue system based on what you've completed or some sort of ELO, but its gonna cause more crying than the amount we already have.

    "I qd up and got a mw monk, prot war, etc... no lust or brez. It was impossible"
    Or
    "This is way too hard for content that I queue up for. This needs to be nerfed"

    It's not just things like 'I have to pee' etc that you can take care of before hand. Maybe an unexpected important phone call comes in, something irl has to pull you away from the computer for a couple minutes unexpectedly, your connection gets interrupted and you DC and have to log back in, etc. Sometimes IRL just happens and it can't always be planned around ahead of time.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Even in untimed dungeons you are screwing over the team by stepping away. Most dungeon timers are like what? 35 mins? You should be able to hold your bladder for that long. When you step away from a dungeon for 5 mins, that's 4 ppl being forced to do nothing while they wait and hope you return. The timer keeps ppl actually playing the game.

    If they remove the timer, and make dungeons "harder", you'll reach the unfun pt of waiting for cds every pull. The timer keeps you engaged and actually playing the game.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Id be ok in theory with a queue system based on what you've completed or some sort of ELO, but its gonna cause more crying than the amount we already have.

    "I qd up and got a mw monk, prot war, etc... no lust or brez. It was impossible"
    Or
    "This is way too hard for content that I queue up for. This needs to be nerfed"
    I mean awful players are always going to be toxic. You will never make them 100% happy you just work by degrees.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    That addon was irrelevant in legion. False argument
    No, it's my point exactly.

    It went from irrelevant in Legion (Your words) to the de facto benchmark for skill in Shadowlands (Exhibit A: All the complaining about being left out of groups over it), so the jump in r.io popularity *is* quite likely seperate from how popular (Or impopular) mythic+ itself is.

  4. #424
    I've read most of the posts in this thread, and barring a couple of pages which went personal, i could see good arguments from both pro and anti m+ people.

    M+ was introduced for 2 reasons: to make dungeons relevant and to give players another form of endgame progression (as opposed to raiding and pvp).

    What i haven't seen is a suggestion or a solution on how to solve those two problems if M+ ceased to exist.

    Dungeong not being relevant past the hc runs for entry gear has been an ongoing problem for years before Legion. I am not counting MoP and WoD challenge mode runs, since those were a one time thing only, for cosmetics.

    As for progression path, many people were cheering that there is another system, in which time constraints of raiding were not present. I guess m+ as a feature just got a bit stale (same with WQs and infinite power grind like artifact and azerite power - both of those were quite applauded upon inception, but got stale over two expansions, hence why in SL they are both reduced in quanitity and impact).

    Some1 may propose to just make the dungeons harder on a base lvl, but i still remember the Dev Watercooler from GC from early Cata (one of the few i remember almost by heart) in which he explained that early Cata heroics had no alternative, but were really hard, so almost 3 million people had quit the game). Those heroics were among the most fun times i had in WoW, but that sentiment obv wasn't shared by many people.

    Obviously people want to progress, even if the difficulty of the content doesn't correspond to the desired lvl of the gear (by that i mean, why would you want raid quiality gear if you don't plan to raid), but the solution would't just be 'make wqs reward better gear'', since forums would soon be flooded with ''why do you make us do WQs for upgrades Blizz '' threads en masse.

    I honestly don't see a simple solution, maybe i can't see one at all, since WoW community will never agree even on much smpler things.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    That addon was irrelevant in legion. False argument
    No it was not. I was absolute scrub when it came to m+ in Legion but it was certainly not irrelevant, you did not get invited into anything difficult if you did not have good score.

  6. #426
    I very much enjoy M+, but I already raid. So doing more than 1-3 runs per week is extremely rare.

    Because I WILL NOT run with strangers, I wait for the few times a week my guild mates are available.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post

    Dungeong not being relevant past the hc runs for entry gear has been an ongoing problem for years before Legion. I am not counting MoP and WoD challenge mode runs, since those were a one time thing only, for cosmetics. .
    Dungeon gear isn't relevant, because M+ gear has made ilvls a joke

    There was a time when we could walk into the first tier raid in heroic dungeon gear

    Now, a person can do a few +5's, which are easier than Cata normal heroics, and have raid quality gear in their vaults, it's crazy

    I am stuck, because I do think M+ can be fun, and I honestly do think it's a good addition to the game, I just think the rewards are far too high for doing 15 minutes of content

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Oh, don't misunderstand -- I feel the same way about Raids as you do. When I played, I raided for the challenge. I feel that way about M+, too, though. On the other hand, it's pretty common on these forums for players to talk about how the only reason they keep raiding is for the loot. I may not feel that way, but it's not an uncommon feeling in the community.
    Well, M+ is a different kind of challenge. I don't play it because my class is not suited very well for it. But I see m+ more of simply a loot source than raids. Because m+ never really changes, apart from the cut at +10. Sure, the health and damage values get higher, but that's not very interesting. It's fun, nonetheless, but not as challenging (or fun) as getting 20 people to coordinate in a bossfight. More players equals more fun to me.

    I guess I should've been more specific when I said "modern". All of those games are relatively old, at this point (FortniteBR is the youngest at 3 and a half years), and, even still, at least two of them have battle passes (I can't speak for LoL, but Fortnite and CSGO both do) that provide rewards for participation.
    Well, I don't know any modern multiplayer games then. Maybe Fall guys? Overwatch? But nobody plays those for the loot. Neither would I think that anybody buys a season pass to make a game worth playing. Those that do like the game (even without rewards) so much, that they are willing to spend money on it.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

    In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
    People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

    Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
    So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

    I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?
    Yep. It's the PVE version of Arena really. A good number doing it hate it but they have to run it for gear. And because they hate it they just buy boosting services. To be able to afford those services they buy tokens. So it is probably highly profitable for Blizz. Plus it gives them the "e-sport" thingy they so desire.
    Last edited by Gratlim; 2021-03-19 at 05:11 PM.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    Dungeon gear isn't relevant, because M+ gear has made ilvls a joke

    There was a time when we could walk into the first tier raid in heroic dungeon gear

    Now, a person can do a few +5's, which are easier than Cata normal heroics, and have raid quality gear in their vaults, it's crazy

    I am stuck, because I do think M+ can be fun, and I honestly do think it's a good addition to the game, I just think the rewards are far too high for doing 15 minutes of content
    Its weekly time locked tho. +5 will get u 210. Youre thinking +7 for 213. And you get 1 option of that once a week. If you kill half of heroic raid you'll most likely get 1 drop, and 1 piece from vault.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Its weekly time locked tho. +5 will get u 210. Youre thinking +7 for 213. And you get 1 option of that once a week. If you kill half of heroic raid you'll most likely get 1 drop, and 1 piece from vault.
    No, I was thinking 210... you can do 4, +5's and have 2, 210 pieces in your vault to choose from

    To me this seems crazy..210 is better than normal raid gear, and on par with heroic raids

    +5's are piss easy, you can basically ignore most mechanics, and they take 15-20 minutes....There is no way someone should be getting raid quality gear from doing them

  12. #432
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    I like M+ well enough but I only run it with a regular group. I imagine that's an entirely different experience than doing it with random strangers. Actually, nearly everything in the game is an entirely different (and better) experience if you're doing it with friends or guildmates.

    I'm quite sure that getting better gear early on is a design response to people not staying around and a nudge to get them to add organized raiding to their activities. The argument that they would stay if it took longer—or to put it colloquially, more of a grind—is wrong and has been demonstrated to be so for some years now.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2021-03-19 at 05:44 PM.
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  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

    In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
    People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

    Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
    So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

    I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?
    Is there any content in the entire game that people do without a reward at the end? Even levelling is just a means to an end (that end being reaching end game where the real rewards and progression are)...

    The only thing I can think of is RP which is something very few players take part in.

    Most content I do including mythic plus is for the gear reward which helps me with raiding.... I do enjoy beating the raids but if there were no gear drops or character progression available in raids i'm honestly not sure if i'd bother with raiding either.

    People enjoy advancing their character....

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Well, M+ is a different kind of challenge. I don't play it because my class is not suited very well for it. But I see m+ more of simply a loot source than raids. Because m+ never really changes, apart from the cut at +10. Sure, the health and damage values get higher, but that's not very interesting. It's fun, nonetheless, but not as challenging (or fun) as getting 20 people to coordinate in a bossfight. More players equals more fun to me.



    Well, I don't know any modern multiplayer games then. Maybe Fall guys? Overwatch? But nobody plays those for the loot. Neither would I think that anybody buys a season pass to make a game worth playing. Those that do like the game (even without rewards) so much, that they are willing to spend money on it.
    Personally, I play Apex Legends every day. Part of the reason that I play it every single day is the fact that I have the battle pass (it pays for itself if you complete it, so I haven't had to actually pay for the battle pass for several seasons now) and I need to play it enough to make it pay for itself. I mean, I love the game, but I wouldn't feel the need to actually play every day if it weren't for that battle pass.
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  15. #435
    What I wish for M+ is that they would have more "mega" dungeons, like hopefully the upcoming 9.0 one is. Dungeons that are between a 3-5 boss "dungeon" and a 10 boss raid. Something that takes like an hour to complete vs. a 30 minute dungeon or a 3 hour raid. I really enjoy small group content, and I know you can technically do 10 man raids, but they're far from optimal from what I've heard.

    My biggest problem with Mythic+ is not the repetition, though that is a problem. My beef is the way they increase difficulty is through "dance" mechanics. Things like vortexes flying around and volcanoes on the ground and stuff like that. I'd prefer they just be...harder. Or add those mechanics to bosses only. Mechanics like Prideful or Tyrannical might not be interesting, but to me I'd rather they just stacked those. Make only %-based increases either to trash or bosses and just make the thing super hard. Not through gimmicky (not to mention melee-unfriendly) mechanics though. Or just make it tiers like raids have.

    To be honest, "heroic" and "mythic" dungeons are obviously pretty stupid names when you compare them to raids. M0 is actually the real dungeon. So just redo this whole thing. You've got "normal" dungeons that are (to use Shadowlands ilevels) in the 171 range for gear (you gear up for those with quests, world quests, crafted gear), then heroics are in the 184 range, then Mythics are in the 200 range. From there, you jump to "M+" and just make like 2 more tiers above that (213 and 220 gear drops) which are huge jumps in difficulty. Call them whatever you want "Legendary" "Epic" dungeons or something. The whole idea of speed running slightly more difficult versions of the same dungeons over and over is dumb. Let's say the max level 4 dungeons are actually WAY bigger like 8 bosses and only available on Mythic and above difficulty and take like an hour or an hour and a half to do.

    That's my (probably flawed) vision for small group content.
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  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Personally, I play Apex Legends every day. Part of the reason that I play it every single day is the fact that I have the battle pass (it pays for itself if you complete it, so I haven't had to actually pay for the battle pass for several seasons now) and I need to play it enough to make it pay for itself. I mean, I love the game, but I wouldn't feel the need to actually play every day if it weren't for that battle pass.
    I'm probably the exact opposite of you: If a game strongly encourages me to login every day, I will lose interest in that game quickly. I don't want a game to control my free time. If I want to play, I'll play. If not, then I don't want to feel like I'm missing out. That's the reason I skipped BfA's and Legion's first patches. That's why I stopped playing Hearthstone. Even if I somewhat like a game, such a system is a major turnoff.
    Undoubtly such systems work for many other people though. But it does not make a bad game better, just good games even more attracting (for some).

  17. #437
    Immortal Zka's Avatar
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    If anything, it showcases how fucked up m+ are. It's the 3rd iteration and worst by far so far. Overcomplicated, untuned, unrewarding. Shame, the format have had so much potential, but of course they had to fuck it up.

  18. #438
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I like M+ well enough but I only run it with a regular group. I imagine that's an entirely different experience than doing it with random strangers. Actually, nearly everything in the game is an entirely different (and better) experience if you're doing it with friends or guildmates.

    I'm quite sure that getting better gear early on is a design response to people not staying around and a nudge to get them to add organized raiding to their activities. The argument that they would stay if it took longer—or to put it colloquially, more of a grind—is wrong and has been demonstrated to be so for some years now.
    This blatantly false in almost every fashion. In fact slowly trying to nudge people towards organized raiding has been the colossal failure while alternate advancement systems that introduce grinding for power (which is basically the same as gear) has been an overwhelming success to the point they replicate it basically every expansion
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I like M+ well enough but I only run it with a regular group. I imagine that's an entirely different experience than doing it with random strangers. Actually, nearly everything in the game is an entirely different (and better) experience if you're doing it with friends or guildmates.

    I'm quite sure that getting better gear early on is a design response to people not staying around and a nudge to get them to add organized raiding to their activities. The argument that they would stay if it took longer—or to put it colloquially, more of a grind—is wrong and has been demonstrated to be so for some years now.
    It all depends how you wanna play really, guildies or not is kinda irrelevant.

    99% of my M+ groups are IRL friends/guildies, but in reality if i wanted to be serious about M+, i would have to ignore all IRL friends and most of my guild apart from 2-4 people and play with the proper pugs (Its a number up to 40 people or so).

    Pretty sure its the same for many people, but since i dont do that, cause if i ignore them i am gonna be stuck with undergeared slackers that cant do anything, so i suck it up, destroy my mental health for a few weeks at the start of every patch cycle, help them out with weeklies and then i just get the seasonal KSM with the slightly better friends/people on my friend list.

    Blizzard stopped trying to get people to raid for a few expansions now also, its the reason why there isnt any quest/campaign or anything similar involving a raid, remember how G'huun was required for the main story, and that part was completely removed afterwards and you just skipped it on alts also?

    Yeah, there was a reason they did that

    Also depends how you view things, from my point of view, Legion and SL worked exactly as they should, i saw/have many expansion hoppers still playing or at least playing alts now, instead of unsubbing after the first month or two as they did in every expansion apart from those two, same with BFA, most disappeared the second-third month.

    What the OP has completely failed to realize is that, people will play whatever is the most efficient way to gear even if they dislike it.

    If they add freebie relevant gear to pet battles, people will be pet battling like there is no tomorrow.

    I couldnt care less about PvP/Arena in WoW, its an unbalanced joke, yet back in MoP when i restarted the game, all my alts geared up that way, because it was the most efficient way, the same way many people are using PvP to do that.
    Last edited by potis; 2021-03-20 at 12:23 AM.

  20. #440
    The only things I don't like about M+ are the raider.io elitism, and Prideful.

    Pugs expect you to have +17s cleared before inviting you to a +15. It just gets new players stuck in a loop where if you don't have a guild to run with you, you're fucked.

    And Prideful just makes it so you have to kill the trash in weird specific orders or it fucks up the run. That's not fun or interesting, just more crap you have to memorize.

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