This expansion showcased how people do not enjoy m+ at all

[Ange]

I just wanted to point out that doing them with a fixed group is a totally different experience, funnier and less stressing.

What different experience do you mean?

PUG'ing your KSM is in no way different to fixed groups. People expect only to time it, with basic pulls, loose group composition and all you have to do is play without to much failing on simple mechanics.

A fixed group is easier, if you get carried, else its just like PUGing. You don't do MDI like pulls with 210 ilvl and without endless practice and its clearly not needed for KSM.

And PUGs are fine with the normal ilvl/rating requirements for 10-15 keys (200-215 ilvl, rating from 800-1200) everything less is asking for a free carry.

And this is my POV on the alliance side, you can queue at any time, for specific dungeons, at specific key levels and you get runs going deep into the night. Horde got 20x as much activity so I dont get the PUG vs fixed group nonsense for KSM.

You need 5-10 keys at least for the weekly vault min-maxing for easy gearing, why not just spend every week for +1 key levels and progress like everyone else?

[dacoolist]

Ye, I’ll also stop going above 15 if and once I get KSM, no interest in going further, I am a casual player and getting KSM would be “mythic” enough for me.

I just wanted to point out that doing them with a fixed group is a totally different experience, funnier and less stressing.

I couldnt agree more. It's tough pushing past the 15's because the reward just isn't there. If they had achieves for 18's etc that would make sense but they don't so 15's are my go to as well (hell even 14's because of the vault 226)

[OokOok]

M+ is fine. Specs like Ungabungakin having all the utility & damage in the world while other specs beg for invite scraps isn't

We found the crying warlock

[chiddie]

What different experience do you mean?

PUG'ing your KSM is in no way different to fixed groups. People expect only to time it, with basic pulls, loose group composition and all you have to do is play without to much failing on simple mechanics.

A fixed group is easier, if you get carried, else its just like PUGing. You don't do MDI like pulls with 210 ilvl and without endless practice and its clearly not needed for KSM.

And PUGs are fine with the normal ilvl/rating requirements for 10-15 keys (200-215 ilvl, rating from 800-1200) everything less is asking for a free carry.

And this is my POV on the alliance side, you can queue at any time, for specific dungeons, at specific key levels and you get runs going deep into the night. Horde got 20x as much activity so I dont get the PUG vs fixed group nonsense for KSM.

I’m not talking about KSM specifically. I am talking about runs in general.

In guild runs (or friends runs) the environment is more friendly. You can talk, you can even write in chat, you coordinate, you joy or despair or laugh, there’s no toxicity. You beat timer, ok, you fail it, DAMN... but ok, shiet happens, we had a fun 30-40 minutes anyways.

Good luck doing that in a pug environment where it’s all about gogogo with some random “wait”, “pull”, “ress” or “bl” in chat plus every sort of insults if something goes wrong. Half of my runs are simply a collection of those plus a “hello” when I’m grouped (usually in reply of my hello, else there’s not even any hello). Also when run ends, regardless the result, it’s kkthxbye after 5 seconds. Meh.

[Advent]

I DON'T need it. that's kind of the point. I don't need it, and even if i did, i don't enjoy the content and would prefer to just raid log when not raiding. The outside of raid content doesn't mean anything to me this expac personally.

the problem is that the DPS and healers think the tank SHOULD be doing M+ for guildies in need, and i don't feel like i should have to do content i don't want to do just to enjoy content i do enjoy.

It creates a social problem because raid tanks are expected to help guildies with M+ when they need it, and i won't bother with M+

I understand the sentiment, I do. But that still seems to me to be a guild problem you'd need to sort out with them. Ask them why one of them can't tank, then bring another dps/healer? (Are they all playing clothies, or the 4 pure dps?) There are social solutions to the problem, and barring that, it would appear your best bet would be to remove yourself from that environment. (The guild, I mean)

[chiddie]

I couldnt agree more. It's tough pushing past the 15's because the reward just isn't there. If they had achieves for 18's etc that would make sense but they don't so 15's are my go to as well (hell even 14's because of the vault 226)

My side, I’m honest, rewards are only a part of the story.

I like to see how far I can go having “success”, but I fear that past 15 things will become really complicated and I don’t have enough dedication (plus I’m almost 47, reflexes and synapses are not the same of when I raided in Vanilla being 30) to not start thinking me being a serious burden to others.

- - - Updated - - -

I understand the sentiment, I do. But that still seems to me to be a guild problem you'd need to sort out with them. Ask them why one of them can't tank, then bring another dps/healer? (Are they all playing clothies, or the 4 pure dps?) There are social solutions to the problem, and barring that, it would appear your best bet would be to remove yourself from that environment. (The guild, I mean)

This.

When someone starts telling you what you should do in-game (and I mean activities of course, not strategies or tactics), there is a serious issue within the guild.

There’s no written law that a M raid tank has to carry guildies in M+ when he doesn’t raid, if he doesn’t like M+. My monthly fee, my time, my playstyle.

[Lolites]

Many amateur leagues don't have any significant prizes, especially not for the vast majority that doesn't place first. And if you primarily do it for the money, you're not an amateur to begin with. That's part of the definition.

reading is a bit troublesome to you isnt it?
1. his argument that started the whole conversation (which you so conveniently ignored) was that people on OLYMPIC LEVEL OF SKILL dont get any rewards or recognition in some field, and do it just for fun, which is simply put bullshit, ofc people in village league with 50 people attending dont get the same reward as fucking olympic games winners, that realy needed to be said out loud? i thought anyone with half a brain understands that...

2. i NEVER EVER in the conversation, let alone in the post you quoted (without reading it, or so it seems) EVER said people in small village leagues get high monetary prize, i actualy didnt mention money in this regard AT ALL, i said they have reward other than "yay i won", which they generaly do... you said youself they dont have SIGNIFICANT prize, but they do have a fucking prize otherwise people wouldnt bother... as for not being rewarded unles you win (or have high place), well, yeah? that goes without saying, why the fuck should you get reward for failing, world is not a kindergarden, where you are "last winner" or whatnot...

[Utrrabbit]

M+ is mildly enjoyable until you decide to tank on anything that isnt a dh/monk and you have 0 fun cause all you do is endlessly kite mobs around and everything that goes wrong in the run is your fault.

Lol. My paladin would have words with you.

Sanguine 15. I just stand in place while the dps kills everything.

[Coldkil]

Ye, I’ll also stop going above 15 if and once I get KSM, no interest in going further, I am a casual player and getting KSM would be “mythic” enough for me.

I just wanted to point out that doing them with a fixed group is a totally different experience, funnier and less stressing.

Oh yeah, totally. Playing with the same people will make the whole group more effective. i'd really like to find people for it, but i have a sketchy schedule and not many of the people i play with is actually interested in m+.

If gearing was as easy through raid, many people wouldn't set foot in m+

- - - Updated - - -

I do like m+ but only with friends. Goin in PUGs is just horrible experience and no fun. Beside this reward system is a piece of shit. Valors would fix it a bit but still its bad. The idea of M+ was to seprate radings and 5 mans. But hello if ur a raider u had to do m+ to boost ur gear up vice versa best weapons and trinks drops from RAIDs >< Im not a raider anymore and thats penalty if i do not raid.

Actually many bis weapons and trinkets this tier come from m+. Also you can get easily 220+ gear through cache doing 10 not even in time, while raiding you have to do mythic since HC is capped at 213 with a handful of 220 at last 2 bosses.

So yes, gearing with m+ is way easier.

[Dawon]

I hate everything that comes with m+, I do love raiding tho. But now I can't get gear reliably from only raiding which means I'm a liability for my guild and I took the honorable way out, I resigned from Mythic raiding to let someone that cba to spam m+ get my spot.

Also m+ just creates cliques within guilds, which is never a good thing. There is nothing good that comes out of having loot drop in a 5man environment, in a game focused on progress raiding. Simply let m+ drop cosmetics and let raiding be the place for loot, that would save the headache for MANY guilds as you will always have about half the guild not pushing m+, thus falling behind in gear, making the raids harder than they could be if you only doubled the raid drops and skipped m+ totally.

Or even this, make raiding drop gear that is suited for raiding, make m+ drop gear that is suited for m+ and pvp drop gear suited for pvp. I.e. have some sort of m+ boost on gear that drops within m+, which is useless when you raid and the other way around.

[Lolites]

Simply let m+ drop cosmetics and let raiding be the place for loot

"i dont like something so it shouldnt give loot"

make raiding drop gear that is suited for raiding, make m+ drop gear that is suited for m+ and pvp drop gear suited for pvp

"force people who want to play whole game to collect 3times as much gear bcs i cant be arsed to do single m+ a week"

damn... thats one hell of an ego you have...

[cozzri]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

There's too many difficulty levels, just like raids. WoW population started its decline at the end of Wrath when they went bullheaded crazy with this; Trial of the Crusader started it, and gearscore came with it. Everything I loathe about this game pinpointed to a single design shift.

[chiddie]

There's too many difficulty levels, just like raids. WoW population started its decline at the end of Wrath when they went bullheaded crazy with this; Trial of the Crusader started it, and gearscore came with it. Everything I loathe about this game pinpointed to a single design shift.

You are right about difficulty levels, but in a gear based game how do you “define” who “deserves” a certain level of gear without using difficulty levels?

[ClassicPeon]

There's too many difficulty levels, just like raids. WoW population started its decline at the end of Wrath when they went bullheaded crazy with this; Trial of the Crusader started it, and gearscore came with it. Everything I loathe about this game pinpointed to a single design shift.

There is absolutely no evidence to support that the amount of difficulties in raiding has anything to do with wows declining population.

Something people very rarely complain about in wow is that it has multiple raid difficulties. Yet you see angry posts on this forum complaining about wow relates stuff every single minute of the day

[Jujudrood]

Plenty of people enjoy M+.
Plenty of people do not enjoy conquering hard content and getting a pittance of a currency that has nothing to do with character advancement.

[Spoonman]

People would enjoy M+ if it was the Legion-era AoEfest instead of BfA metaslavery or SL brickwall simulator

This lol
10char

[cozzri]

There is absolutely no evidence to support that the amount of difficulties in raiding has anything to do with wows declining population.

Something people very rarely complain about in wow is that it has multiple raid difficulties. Yet you see angry posts on this forum complaining about wow relates stuff every single minute of the day

There is absolutely no evidence to support that the amount of difficulties in raiding has anything to do with wows declining population.

Something people very rarely complain about in wow is that it has multiple raid difficulties. Yet you see angry posts on this forum complaining about wow relates stuff every single minute of the day

No, the main complaint is about gear most of the time. Having 15 difficulty levels for dungeons, 4 levels for raids, and all of the in-between ilvls for items; The randomness of it just makes it a tiresome system. Getting best-in-slot items feels like such a chore. Getting items doesn't feel rewarding when you already had the same exact item only with 5 less iLvL. I remember the outcry when Blizzard decided to have normal and heroic dungeons have the same exact loot tables, it's boring grinding iLvLs.

[Vyox]

Considering this is all just conjecture, I think these dungeons are the worst dungeons of any expansion. Most of this in my opinion spawns from the covenant dungeon abilities, half the dungeon kills itself given you have someone of the correct covenant, if you don't your throwing.

As much as I enjoy M+ and building a team and trying to learn each others habits and pushing to be competitive I think it's bad for the health of the game. The content is requiring your player base to adhere to the most competitive decision making regarding class/spec/cov combinations. To be more clear, the content doesn't require the most competitive decisions innately in a vacuum, but when every person who plays the game actually has to deal with it socially the difference is nominal.

Stepping away from the game for the first time since Vanilla to play other games the issues of modern WoW are glaring. Too many half executed ideas, you wanna make a theme park mmo where your character just tries to be competitive in instanced game modes sure lean into that and make every decision towards that. Want to be an RPG ok sure get rid of Arena, M+, and 4 versions of Raids. Being both is like eating a spaghetti burrito. I'm not even sure people by the game to play it anymore as much as they buy the hope it's as good as legion or wotlk.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The core of the issue feels like they made the part of the game your normal population plays in (2 to 15s) a little to competitive. I mean if professional MDI runners are doing +18s at an event they could win money at while being featured on a broadcast than a kid doing +15s for the loot probably shouldn't be so close that level of competition. Sure, 15s shouldn't be total pushovers that you can drag your mom and girl friend along with while they watch netflix and cash out in time. Of course not. But they probably shouldn't be bumping up few levels below the MDI competition either. It just feels like the scale was tilted to 11 and when it if was at 8 or 9 it would have been alright.

[Niwes]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

i have „good“ new for you: just read the 9.0.5 release notes, to get a huuuge „proof“ of what you are saying.

btw: watch closely /2 the next few days/weeks when booster spams are exploding and Blizz is jumping happily around, when they sell a million Tokens and getting 7 bugs by doing nothing, for every Token ever passing the AH.