This expansion showcased how people do not enjoy m+ at all

[ro9ue]

The only people I know still playing the game are timing M+ keys. So fwiw I think that's not the issue with this expansion.

[Hinastorm]

Careful, the rabid masses of mmo champ don't like threads that point out the very real flaws of m+.

[Nobleshield]

Yep. As much as I dislike the usual hyperbole I'm starting to agree that more and more WoW is dispensing with the RPG side of MMORPGs. There's some story still to be had, but absolutely no sense of adventure in the game as everything is geared more towards an e-sports point-of-view.

You can blame mythic plus for that and the fact that people eat it up when it's a garbage design that shits all over actual RPG design. The guy above got infracted for whatever but he's 100% right. M+ is cancer and it makes the community that much more of a toxic cesspit.

[procne]

You can blame mythic plus for that and the fact that people eat it up when it's a garbage design that shits all over actual RPG design. The guy above got infracted for whatever but he's 100% right.

You may dislike the design, other people love it. What else is there to say?
As for the RPG part - has it really been better in vanilla / TBC? If anything, there is more story to be had currently, and the player is part of that story.

And the guy above - I reported him for flame baiting. He just called some people "rabid masses" and brought nothing to the topic.

[Aurosh]

well... what is fun about repeating the dungeons? i saw the dungeons and learned them in first week... then m+ is just the same dungeons i already did... with increased scaling...

You should notice that on lower keys, you can ignore some mechanics that would later on wipe you /delay the run. And every group is different, the affixes change stuff etc.

By your logic, everything is the same. You do the raid once. You do pvp once - because well, it's the same bg/arena. You play MOBAs once - because it's always the same.

The way m+ works is: it gives you the challenge if you like it. Some people will fight for +25, some will be aiming for 20s, some will never reach keystone conquerer (15). But that's because people mess up mechanics, dont know abilities, dont use their cc or interrupt etc. dont use their defensives.

I healed a halls run and we wiped a 16 pride - because the hunter got hit by spiteful - and they managed to spawn the Pride 10sec before the last trash pull mob died. That's the kind of stuff a well played group doesnt let happen. They get the timing properly, they cc the spiteful adds and kill the pride.

Your random pug group messes stuff up. They do not use their defensives, CCs, they focus the wrong mobs, they get by spideful shades (even ranged!). That's the difference between a ilvl 215 guy with 2k RIO score and ilvl 225 with 1.2k RIO... i'd always pick the 2k guy because he usually doesnt mess up mechanics.

[kamuimac]

I don't really enjoy mythic plus.... right now I'm 210 just from raiding with my very casual guild... 6 hours a week, 8/10 heroic

Now though I only have 2 or 3 slots below 213.... we'll be getting 220's from generals and sire over the next month....

I look forward to next week's raid.... even though the drop rates suck, I don't look forward to the vault, because it has pretty much sucked for me... just this week, my 2 213 items were the only two cloth belts in CN, of which I already had both

So now I kinda feel forced to do mythics to progress between now and 9.1.... I don't really " need " the gear so to speak... I am not a burden to my raid team...

It's just that who the hell wants to stagnate for 3 months waiting for 9.1 to come out ???

This upgrade system is stupid, it is obvious Blizz is trying to funnel their players into mythics... which only serves the boosters and causes resentment in players that don't really want to grind mythic dungeons

I get it... they want to create an E-sport out of mythics and pvp... but, you can have other system upgrades too, that don't simply cater to pvp and mythic grinders

technically this depends on how many people in team also have this point of view.

for example if 80% of people push m+ weekly and get 220-226 gear while 20 % do nothing then after 2-3 months sadly ... yes you are huge burden to your team due to how gear scales (7-10 itlv difference in gear is huuuuuge this expansion )

but hey if you guild accepts that more power to you !

[Shiekyerbooty]

technically this depends on how many people in team also have this point of view.

for example if 80% of people push m+ weekly and get 220-226 gear while 20 % do nothing then after 2-3 months sadly ... yes you are huge burden to your team due to how gear scales (7-10 itlv difference in gear is huuuuuge this expansion )

but hey if you guild accepts that more power to you !

I said I didn't enjoy mythics, I didn't say that I haven't done any...who could resist doing some just for that M+ charity gear in the great vault ?

I think it would be obvious if I were a burden to my team, I don't die very often and the meters look good

[T-34]

You can blame mythic plus for that and the fact that people eat it up when it's a garbage design that shits all over actual RPG design. The guy above got infracted for whatever but he's 100% right. M+ is cancer and it makes the community that much more of a toxic cesspit.

M+ is the best thing Blizzard has added to WoW in my opinion:
1. Bite-sized competive content which fits the lifestyle of today
2. Lesser group size which fits the lifestyle of today
3. In-built variation with affixes
4. A well functioning ranking system (not made by Blizzard)
5. The smaller group size makes the contribution of each person more important, which makes it more fun and challenging.

I can understand the frustration of some players about M+.
If someone before were used to be able to hide in a bigger raidsize and were used to be carried through content then the smaller group-size doesn't allow you that any more.

[procne]

M+ is the best thing Blizzard has added to WoW in my opinion:
1. Bite-sized competive content which fits the lifestyle of today
2. Lesser group size which fits the lifestyle of today
3. In-built variation with affixes
4. A well functioning ranking system (not made by Blizzard)
5. The smaller group size makes the contribution of each person more important, which makes it more fun and challenging.

I can understand the frustration of some players about M+.
If someone before were used to be able to hide in a bigger raidsize and were used to be carried through content then the smaller group-size doesn't allow you that any more.

I like the concept of m+ as well. It reminds me of Zulaman mount runs back in TBC - it was a great experience! The timer makes sure that everyone is concentrated and the group is working according to the plan. It's such a great feeling when you flawlessly and efficiently go from pull to pull.

At the same time it wasn't really a competitive experience to me and I don't really need high keys for that. I would prefer to keep wiping on +10 with a group of friends rather than do clean +15 with randoms once a week.

[Shigma]

I never enjoyed Mythic+, it just makes me not want to play the game, because i don't have much fun.

I enjoyed more the BC-LK systems, and i did pandaria and WoD challenge modes, but just because i liked the rewards (And i did enjoy it, because i was pursuing something i really wanted that trascended in the game, over seasonal loot).

But i can be mainly because i don't enjoy how classes work eversince Legion, it's never been the same since then to me.

[erifwodahs]

The loot droprate in raids is absolute dogshit. Doing M+ is required to get the upgrade options from Vault. And now with the Valor Upgrades, it is even more mandatory to farm M+

you unlock vault slots from raid too...

[Barzotti]

SL has more different characters with a R.io score than the most popular M+ season in Legion, so the premise of this topic is wifully dishonest.

[erifwodahs]

I get it... they want to create an E-sport out of mythics and pvp... but, you can have other system upgrades too, that don't simply cater to pvp and mythic grinders

Raiders 100% 226-233ilvl from vault. They also get a chance at 226/233 loot from bosses

M+ gets 226 ONCE A WEEK with no other chance to get it and JUST FOR A WEEK NOW we get access to 220. Which we need to grind out and upgrade! and if you want a weapon - tough luck, you can't upgrade it a lot because of the upgrade price. So yeah, I think raiders in the last 4 months got more drops from bosses than amount of items "mythic grinders" can upgrade even with full capped valor, not even to max ilvl.

PvP has overall best reward system which rewards skill and removes all RNG. Amount of items you can get is capped behind currency, but upgrading is not capped so you can upgrade all your gear in a week.

[Stevano]

I like mythic+, I just don't have time to wait 1 hour long to even get an invite for a group. And usually the group either falls apart because of people leaving after one wipe. All that on top of 4 out of 5 times not getting loot, it's not worth the tremendous amount of time it takes.

[Dundebuns]

It's beyond time that people realise that the sunk cost fallacy is indeed just that; a fallacy. If you no longer enjoy the game, regardless of how much time you've already put into it, stop playing and find something you'll actually enjoy. It's the only way you'll send a message to the people that really control what's going on and hopefully get some positive changes into the game.

[Ludek]

Personally I have mixed relation with M+.

I like the scalable dungeons, yet I don't like the time limit stuff.

We have a blast with our group of guildies doing them, but if there was not any actual gear reward for it, I doubt we would ever bother doing them (see MoP / WoD challange modes, where gear from the weekly quest was pitiful)

As for the topic itself - I can imagine most of the people doing M+, do not actually like them. Most raiders in this game are Normal / HC ones, for them M+ vault is the easiest option for decent upgrades - you need to do just +8 to have in your vault something with higher ilvl than HC raid drop, +10 will get you something already 7 ilvl higher than the "main" content you are doing. Yes, PVP can get you better rewards, yet M+ is more straightforward, you just run 1-4 dungs per week, and get the stuff from the vault, and you are done.

I can imagine many people hating M+ and doing this as a weekly 1-4h chore, just for the gear, as it provides the easiest and highest gear via the vault in regards to other content they are doing (exactly the same situation with mythic raiders hating PVP this expansion but doing it for the vault)

Doing 4x 8+ keys is way easier and less time consuming for a "standard player" than downing 6 HC bosses, and it gets you better stuff in the vault.

And the problem is - there is no clear solution for this as you cannot really balance difficulty/reward between raid and m+ where one had 4 levels of difficulty, other at least 15.

I guess the only decent (yet still wonky) solution would be to have separate gear for raids and M+. Have some system like WoD PVP, where for raids, PVP and outdoors the ilvl would be capped to HC raid level for +15 gear and Mythic raid for +20, but when you put in the key, it would go up to our current m+ gear ilvl based on which key it did drop.

But then, there would be huge exodus from the mythic dungeons.

[Keashaa]

Kill the current system.

Do the following:
- while leveling, dungeons only have the "level" difficulty which is scaling
- at max level, dungeons have four difficulties: "standard" (current m0), "advanced" (current m+4, one affix, no tyrannical or fortified), "hard" (current m+7, two affixed, no tyrannical or fortified), "insane" (current m+10, three affixes, no tyrannical or fortified) and "nightmare" (starting at m+11, four affixes including tyrannical or fortified)
- "standard", "advanced", "hard" and "insane" offer loot once per week and per difficulty (if you can handle it)
- "nightmare" does not offer loot
- no keystone or time limit until "nightmare" (so the four "lesser" difficulties can be played as everyone wants)
- affixes rotate like they do now

[Coldkil]

But then, there would be huge exodus from the mythic dungeons.

And that's not a problem.

The thing is that M+ has a huge influx of players because a) it's the best way to gear your character hands down and b) it requires zero commitement, you can just log in whenever and do them.

On one side, it's an objectively good thing. Makes players way more active (albeit completely antisocial for the most part - which is killing the community from inside) and there's something actually compelling to do anytime you log in. On the other, it's killing the raiding scene. Most players are decked already in gear thus they rush through normal/heroic and the try mythic without the actual skills needed for the most part then immediately leave it because (let's face it) it's too hard or they don't have the will to commit to it.

The main issue is that you can partake in M+ even at high level without ever setting foot in raid and not only be successful, but also correctly rewarded. The other side doesn't happen - you HAVE to do M+ if you want to raid in a decent way. It's not that raid gear sucks, but gearing up through it is just slow as hell compared to M+. If you decide to run M+ to get your gear, you'll find that you have relatively easy access to 220+ gear, making everything up to HC completely and utterly useless.

Raid has no impact on the M+ ecosystem. M+ however are destroying any reason to be in raids. Which sucks because while endgame structure is fine per se, the whole thing of "i'll just log in and pug my way for guaranteed gear" is creating a trend of people only playing for themselves in a game whose focus is coordinated group play.

And i'm not talking about the low % of players that do Mythic raid or 20+ keys, which are obviously coordinated, but about the greatest bulk of people who just becoming unable to create anything that lasts more than 3 months.

[erifwodahs]

The main issue is that you can partake in M+ even at high level without ever setting foot in raid and not only be successful, but also correctly rewarded. The other side doesn't happen - you HAVE to do M+ if you want to raid in a decent way. It's not that raid gear sucks, but gearing up through it is just slow as hell compared to M+. If you decide to run M+ to get your gear, you'll find that you have relatively easy access to 220+ gear, making everything up to HC completely and utterly useless.

Raid has no impact on the M+ ecosystem. M+ however are destroying any reason to be in raids. Which sucks because while endgame structure is fine per se, the whole thing of "i'll just log in and pug my way for guaranteed gear" is creating a trend of people only playing for themselves in a game whose focus is coordinated group play.

That is false. M+ might be best way to gear up pre-raid but "gearing" in m+ is not viable. HC raid drops higher ilvl and you also unlock Vault if you do raids.
In raids you get Guaranteed weekly 226 + a chance at 226ilvl
In M+ you get Guaranteed weekly 226 and then nothing UNTIL last week. Now you can get 220ilvl, but you need the item to be dropped and have enough valor to upgrade.

I personally will be able to upgrade 3 items to 220ilvl if I get a drop at 210 (20 dungeons and counting, did not get those items)
Are you going to tell me, that raiders did not get 3 items at 226ilvl in the last 3 months of raiding? That puts them above the M+ doers even now, because 226 is higher than what we can upgrade.

Don't forget the trinkets which we can't get from raid above 213ilvl no matter what I do if I raid HC only while raiders can do a +10 and still get 220ilvl trinket.

Obviously doing both will gear up you faster, but people who push 15s won't be better geared than Mythic raiders just because we are locket to one item per week and raiders have one item per week PLUS A CHANCE to 226/233.

PvP is really good gearing system tho. They should have copied that for M+ and maybe your claims would have a leg to stand on.

[Spazzix]

And that's not a problem.

The thing is that M+ has a huge influx of players because a) it's the best way to gear your character hands down and
...

The main issue is that you can partake in M+ even at high level without ever setting foot in raid and not only be successful, but also correctly rewarded. The other side doesn't happen - you HAVE to do M+ if you want to raid in a decent way. It's not that raid gear sucks, but gearing up through it is just slow as hell compared to M+. If you decide to run M+ to get your gear, you'll find that you have relatively easy access to 220+ gear, making everything up to HC completely and utterly useless.

Raid has no impact on the M+ ecosystem. M+ however are destroying any reason to be in raids. Which sucks because while endgame structure is fine per se, the whole thing of "i'll just log in and pug my way for guaranteed gear" is creating a trend of people only playing for themselves in a game whose focus is coordinated group play.
...

M+ is the best way to get low level epics and the worst way to get max level gear. And by worst I mean it's actually impossible because even if you think you can once-a-week rng yourself to a full set, you still don't get 233 like pvp and raid.

If you're KSM for 220 loot you're already capable of getting 226 from mythic raid. You don't get 220 just for putting a key in, the same way you don't get 226 just for setting raif to mythic. You still have to do the content.
Raid(or pvp) is actually completely necessary for M+ at a high level. The ability to absolutely maximize dps to meet timers is dramatically affected by 226 vs 220 gear.

You say raid has no impact on the m+ ecosystem and yet, if you dont have access to drastically increased 226 loot acquisition, you will be left behind faster than you would as a raider.

Its true that for early progression, raiders need to fill out slots with M+*, but it's also true that for high keys later on, M+ players have to fill out a lot of slots with 226/233 from raid* (or with the typically BiS unique trinket effects found in many raid tiers).

*or pvp--because pvp gearing is pretty silly right now. At least raid gives acess to a decent chunk of extra ilvl from non weapon 233 loot.