This expansion showcased how people do not enjoy m+ at all

[Glorious Leader]

It certainly isnt for many, hence why i mentioned gear whores (that obviously hate SL cause their best friend titanforging is gone), but im not lying to you in saying that for most mythic raiders that actually finish content, gear is the tool for that hall of fame/cutting edge, but it is true that gear is the goal for many, i mean we can just look at this forum and see how many guys demand more gear thrown their way cause their character is "stuck".

Thats amusing. Literally EVERYBODY on some level participates in character progression which is achieved primarily through acquiring gear and youve managed to slag them as loot wihores. Fucking awesome. Hey blizz hire this guy.

[Garybear]

Raider.io ruined m+

[ellieg]

Raider.io ruined m+

Ya man, letting ppl know what dungeons you've done is awful. They should just know how amazing you are and unvite you instantly. /s

[T-34]

Raider.io ruined m+

Why don't you play with all the other countless people that hate raider.io?
If all of you people, and according to this forum you are the vast majority, would just play with each other then you could happily ignore it and be happy.

[Exeris]

Thats amusing. Literally EVERYBODY on some level participates in character progression which is achieved primarily through acquiring gear and youve managed to slag them as loot wihores. Fucking awesome. Hey blizz hire this guy.

Getting rewarded for doing something you enjoy, I don't see an issue with that, but playing something you don't like just for the gear is quite different.

Obviously can't do something like this but it would be interesting to compare two expansions where in one expansion you where given all the gear each patch for free from a vendor and compare player activity.

[Electric Lighter]

Why don't you play with all the other countless people that hate raider.io?
If all of you people, and according to this forum you are the vast majority, would just play with each other then you could happily ignore it and be happy.

Everyone wants to do 15s and nothing else... I level alts on different servers just to get different experiences and each time i've done so i've struggled for up to an hour to fill groups for low keys while the second I post a 15 it gets flooded with people who should be doing 10s at best.

What wow honestly needs is to incorporate raider io and simply auto form groups via a elo system for non social players. That would allow them to eventually get their keys up without the nastiness of them having to talk to people or interact in a mmo.

[Florena]

I may be in the minority but the time limit has always kept me from wanting to do M+.

harder dungeons? Great idea.

Time limit, even if it's generous at lower levels, I don't like. I don't like feeling rushed to GO GO GO or like I'm screwing over the team if I have to take a bathroom break or step away from the computer for a couple minutes for some reason.

[ellieg]

I may be in the minority but the time limit has always kept me from wanting to do M+.

harder dungeons? Great idea.

Time limit, even if it's generous at lower levels, I don't like. I don't like feeling rushed to GO GO GO or like I'm screwing over the team if I have to take a bathroom break or step away from the computer for a couple minutes for some reason.

Even in untimed dungeons you are screwing over the team by stepping away. Most dungeon timers are like what? 35 mins? You should be able to hold your bladder for that long. When you step away from a dungeon for 5 mins, that's 4 ppl being forced to do nothing while they wait and hope you return. The timer keeps ppl actually playing the game.

If they remove the timer, and make dungeons "harder", you'll reach the unfun pt of waiting for cds every pull. The timer keeps you engaged and actually playing the game.

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Everyone wants to do 15s and nothing else... I level alts on different servers just to get different experiences and each time i've done so i've struggled for up to an hour to fill groups for low keys while the second I post a 15 it gets flooded with people who should be doing 10s at best.

What wow honestly needs is to incorporate raider io and simply auto form groups via a elo system for non social players. That would allow them to eventually get their keys up without the nastiness of them having to talk to people or interact in a mmo.

Id be ok in theory with a queue system based on what you've completed or some sort of ELO, but its gonna cause more crying than the amount we already have.

"I qd up and got a mw monk, prot war, etc... no lust or brez. It was impossible"
Or
"This is way too hard for content that I queue up for. This needs to be nerfed"

[blackbird1205]

I don't like M+.

MY main point is the repitition of running over and over and over the same dungeons for a whole expansion. I already feel it at the end of (longer) raid tiers that for now, I don't want to see them anymore. When I think about still being in the first big patch, I'm not motivated of running those for 1-2 years. And I dont like timers. Also those little affixes or seasonal affixes doesn't change to much imo. It's still the same dungeon in the end, maybe we another pull strategy or something like that but still the same.

I do my weekly chest mostly (and only the first normally) and call it a week if I don't have to.

[Florena]

Even in untimed dungeons you are screwing over the team by stepping away. Most dungeon timers are like what? 35 mins? You should be able to hold your bladder for that long. When you step away from a dungeon for 5 mins, that's 4 ppl being forced to do nothing while they wait and hope you return. The timer keeps ppl actually playing the game.

If they remove the timer, and make dungeons "harder", you'll reach the unfun pt of waiting for cds every pull. The timer keeps you engaged and actually playing the game.

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Id be ok in theory with a queue system based on what you've completed or some sort of ELO, but its gonna cause more crying than the amount we already have.

"I qd up and got a mw monk, prot war, etc... no lust or brez. It was impossible"
Or
"This is way too hard for content that I queue up for. This needs to be nerfed"

It's not just things like 'I have to pee' etc that you can take care of before hand. Maybe an unexpected important phone call comes in, something irl has to pull you away from the computer for a couple minutes unexpectedly, your connection gets interrupted and you DC and have to log back in, etc. Sometimes IRL just happens and it can't always be planned around ahead of time.

[Electric Lighter]

Even in untimed dungeons you are screwing over the team by stepping away. Most dungeon timers are like what? 35 mins? You should be able to hold your bladder for that long. When you step away from a dungeon for 5 mins, that's 4 ppl being forced to do nothing while they wait and hope you return. The timer keeps ppl actually playing the game.

If they remove the timer, and make dungeons "harder", you'll reach the unfun pt of waiting for cds every pull. The timer keeps you engaged and actually playing the game.

- - - Updated - - -



Id be ok in theory with a queue system based on what you've completed or some sort of ELO, but its gonna cause more crying than the amount we already have.

"I qd up and got a mw monk, prot war, etc... no lust or brez. It was impossible"
Or
"This is way too hard for content that I queue up for. This needs to be nerfed"

I mean awful players are always going to be toxic. You will never make them 100% happy you just work by degrees.

[mysticx]

That addon was irrelevant in legion. False argument

No, it's my point exactly.

It went from irrelevant in Legion (Your words) to the de facto benchmark for skill in Shadowlands (Exhibit A: All the complaining about being left out of groups over it), so the jump in r.io popularity *is* quite likely seperate from how popular (Or impopular) mythic+ itself is.

[Jamais]

I've read most of the posts in this thread, and barring a couple of pages which went personal, i could see good arguments from both pro and anti m+ people.

M+ was introduced for 2 reasons: to make dungeons relevant and to give players another form of endgame progression (as opposed to raiding and pvp).

What i haven't seen is a suggestion or a solution on how to solve those two problems if M+ ceased to exist.

Dungeong not being relevant past the hc runs for entry gear has been an ongoing problem for years before Legion. I am not counting MoP and WoD challenge mode runs, since those were a one time thing only, for cosmetics.

As for progression path, many people were cheering that there is another system, in which time constraints of raiding were not present. I guess m+ as a feature just got a bit stale (same with WQs and infinite power grind like artifact and azerite power - both of those were quite applauded upon inception, but got stale over two expansions, hence why in SL they are both reduced in quanitity and impact).

Some1 may propose to just make the dungeons harder on a base lvl, but i still remember the Dev Watercooler from GC from early Cata (one of the few i remember almost by heart) in which he explained that early Cata heroics had no alternative, but were really hard, so almost 3 million people had quit the game). Those heroics were among the most fun times i had in WoW, but that sentiment obv wasn't shared by many people.

Obviously people want to progress, even if the difficulty of the content doesn't correspond to the desired lvl of the gear (by that i mean, why would you want raid quiality gear if you don't plan to raid), but the solution would't just be 'make wqs reward better gear'', since forums would soon be flooded with ''why do you make us do WQs for upgrades Blizz '' threads en masse.

I honestly don't see a simple solution, maybe i can't see one at all, since WoW community will never agree even on much smpler things.

[erifwodahs]

That addon was irrelevant in legion. False argument

No it was not. I was absolute scrub when it came to m+ in Legion but it was certainly not irrelevant, you did not get invited into anything difficult if you did not have good score.

[Kelathos]

I very much enjoy M+, but I already raid. So doing more than 1-3 runs per week is extremely rare.

Because I WILL NOT run with strangers, I wait for the few times a week my guild mates are available.

[Shiekyerbooty]

Dungeong not being relevant past the hc runs for entry gear has been an ongoing problem for years before Legion. I am not counting MoP and WoD challenge mode runs, since those were a one time thing only, for cosmetics. .

Dungeon gear isn't relevant, because M+ gear has made ilvls a joke

There was a time when we could walk into the first tier raid in heroic dungeon gear

Now, a person can do a few +5's, which are easier than Cata normal heroics, and have raid quality gear in their vaults, it's crazy

I am stuck, because I do think M+ can be fun, and I honestly do think it's a good addition to the game, I just think the rewards are far too high for doing 15 minutes of content

[LordVargK]

Oh, don't misunderstand -- I feel the same way about Raids as you do. When I played, I raided for the challenge. I feel that way about M+, too, though. On the other hand, it's pretty common on these forums for players to talk about how the only reason they keep raiding is for the loot. I may not feel that way, but it's not an uncommon feeling in the community.

Well, M+ is a different kind of challenge. I don't play it because my class is not suited very well for it. But I see m+ more of simply a loot source than raids. Because m+ never really changes, apart from the cut at +10. Sure, the health and damage values get higher, but that's not very interesting. It's fun, nonetheless, but not as challenging (or fun) as getting 20 people to coordinate in a bossfight. More players equals more fun to me.

I guess I should've been more specific when I said "modern". All of those games are relatively old, at this point (FortniteBR is the youngest at 3 and a half years), and, even still, at least two of them have battle passes (I can't speak for LoL, but Fortnite and CSGO both do) that provide rewards for participation.

Well, I don't know any modern multiplayer games then. Maybe Fall guys? Overwatch? But nobody plays those for the loot. Neither would I think that anybody buys a season pass to make a game worth playing. Those that do like the game (even without rewards) so much, that they are willing to spend money on it.

[Gratlim]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

Yep. It's the PVE version of Arena really. A good number doing it hate it but they have to run it for gear. And because they hate it they just buy boosting services. To be able to afford those services they buy tokens. So it is probably highly profitable for Blizz. Plus it gives them the "e-sport" thingy they so desire.

[ellieg]

Dungeon gear isn't relevant, because M+ gear has made ilvls a joke

There was a time when we could walk into the first tier raid in heroic dungeon gear

Now, a person can do a few +5's, which are easier than Cata normal heroics, and have raid quality gear in their vaults, it's crazy

I am stuck, because I do think M+ can be fun, and I honestly do think it's a good addition to the game, I just think the rewards are far too high for doing 15 minutes of content

Its weekly time locked tho. +5 will get u 210. Youre thinking +7 for 213. And you get 1 option of that once a week. If you kill half of heroic raid you'll most likely get 1 drop, and 1 piece from vault.

[Shiekyerbooty]

Its weekly time locked tho. +5 will get u 210. Youre thinking +7 for 213. And you get 1 option of that once a week. If you kill half of heroic raid you'll most likely get 1 drop, and 1 piece from vault.

No, I was thinking 210... you can do 4, +5's and have 2, 210 pieces in your vault to choose from

To me this seems crazy..210 is better than normal raid gear, and on par with heroic raids

+5's are piss easy, you can basically ignore most mechanics, and they take 15-20 minutes....There is no way someone should be getting raid quality gear from doing them