How to easily improve LFG and make M+ less horrific to pug

[Argorwal]

If your tank is having to kite maybe you should be CCing with traps, sap, polymorph, hex etc. Like we did in Vanilla and BC. Not sure why this isn't an option now.

- - - Updated - - -



I remember when you have to CC in 5mans or tanks would get crushed no matter what class or spec.

Well, now there is a timer which pushes going a little faster.

And really the only reason people didn’t kite in earlier expansions is because of threat. Kiting has always been a more efficient method of reducing tank damage than hard CC.

[Specialka]

If your tank is having to kite maybe you should be CCing with traps, sap, polymorph, hex etc. Like we did in Vanilla and BC. Not sure why this isn't an option now.

- - - Updated - - -



I remember when you have to CC in 5mans or tanks would get crushed no matter what class or spec.

Because of the timer. It is faster to Aoe packs while they are kited than CC one or two, then kill them.

[Daffan]

Raider Io is part of the problem.

Only for bad players

[Dakara]

New feature:

You enter the LFG interface. You list the dungeons that you want to run along with their levels. For example, all SL dungeons at keystone levels 14, 15 and 16. Anyone making a group that fits those criteria can instantly see all people that potentially want to run that key and can invite them.

Easy peazy. You no longer need to manually apply and reapply for hours. Just list your preferences, hit up LFG and wait until you get invited.

This was kind of how the original system was for Raids at the end of MOP and I always thought it was vastly better.

On my Alts, I would list myself in the "queue" for Siege and go about my dailies etc until someone invited me. Then, they decided to "improve" the system where you apply for groups individually playing the application UI instead of the actual game.

Big step backwards imo.

[Thirtyrock]

I think some better search functionality would be nice, like I only want to see 10-15 of these keys. The LFD tool already allows you to custom queue for multiple dungeons, so it shouldn't be that hard to filter the lfg tool the same way.

I think the rest of the suggestions of the OP have no clear benefit and quite a few clear downsides.

[Glorious Leader]

Healer is actually by far the easiest with a competent group even during bursting and grievous weeks. I was healing +15's with a good group at 202 ilvl where dps knew how to interrupt, do proper damage and knew mechanics. Its yet another argument in favor of IO tbh (even though bad high IO players obviously exist also).

The caveat here is "competent". When everyone is interrupting, using all available personal defensive cooldowns, dispelling themselves or others, avoiding damage as much as possible while still maintaining maximum dps yes healing is not very challenging. This is of course almost never the case. People even great players are still people.

[Razion]

I don't think it would be that popular simply because such groups will have a huge fail ratio. So people will either abandon or get even more frustrated with the game, than they are now.
And here IMO it's good that blizzard doesn't allow for that.

Besides - from talking about removal of rio we went to talking about adding LFD. Which are separate things, non-exlusive things.

As someone who pugged all my groups since M+'s inception, I basically did clear my way up slowly and incrementally did this approach on multiple characters. Yes it's more laborious, but from my perspective the success rate was as consistent as all the people I watched doing M+ their way. And if the Finder would make groups worse, they could always add in the random dungeon group boost per random added member from the finder like they do in Normal/Heroic/TW queues. They can adjust the bonus so it isn't too egregious but could make up for the skill discrepency which r.io is trying to filter -- and on top of all that it'd allow for lesser skilled people to do harder content and be more useful.

What I'm talking about is a replacement of r.io. If r.io goes obviously there's still a demand for players to make their experience easier. The r.io way filters less skilled people/specs/ilvs out and isn't inclusive, but finder with dungeon buff bonus could still fulfill that purpose of making groups better while also being more convenient and more accessible.

[Daffan]

I love the bashing of raider.io again. Or how you can translate it into:

I am terrible at this game and want to play keys I am not able to play and want to get carried hard.

Raider.io is the single best thing ever happened to that games. I am glad I can filter the trash away all the time.
And in those scenarios I ignore rio and take some low rio guys I see what is happening. Just did that yesterday in a low +12 key. Damn, so many lovely stuns from that low rio shaman in Sanguines, so many missing Bloodlusts and the crappy heal. Was so much fun <3

I am glad I don't have to play with trash that hates rio, and yes, my answer now is kinda toxic.
But you crappy players have to understand that guys like me don't want to carry your ass. You can buy boosts for that.

And once you have a high rio score it is absolutely no problem to play with alts in pugs, even with the worst non meta classes <3

Exactly.

Without .io something else comes. First was gear score, than item level/mop score from that addon that escapes my brain and now .io

Group leaders and good players hate carrying, it's a chore, why should they be burdended!?!

[procne]

As someone who pugged all my groups since M+'s inception, I basically did clear my way up slowly and incrementally did this approach on multiple characters. Yes it's more laborious, but from my perspective the success rate was as consistent as all the people I watched doing M+ their way. And if the Finder would make groups worse, they could always add in the random dungeon group boost per random added member from the finder like they do in Normal/Heroic/TW queues. They can adjust the bonus so it isn't too egregious but could make up for the skill discrepency which r.io is trying to filter -- and on top of all that it'd allow for lesser skilled people to do harder content and be more useful.

What I'm talking about is a replacement of r.io. If r.io goes obviously there's still a demand for players to make their experience easier. The r.io way filters less skilled people/specs/ilvs out and isn't inclusive, but finder with dungeon buff bonus could still fulfill that purpose of making groups better while also being more convenient and more accessible.

I'm sorry, but that sounds awful. Mythic+ was by design the demanding version of the dungeons, requiring better cooperation and focus, where groups can push to see how far they can make it. Why do you try to turn it into another level of heroics?

[intenz]

If your tank is having to kite maybe you should be CCing with traps, sap, polymorph, hex etc. Like we did in Vanilla and BC. Not sure why this isn't an option now.

- - - Updated - - -



I remember when you have to CC in 5mans or tanks would get crushed no matter what class or spec.

Yep a single trash pack in hc shattered halls would destroy a tank without proper CC. I remember TBC and especially early cata heroic dungeons being harder than current +15s which are a joke, just a matter of learning a pre-determined route...

[erifwodahs]

Healer is actually by far the easiest with a competent group even during bursting and grievous weeks. I was healing +15's with a good group at 202 ilvl where dps knew how to interrupt, do proper damage and knew mechanics. Its yet another argument in favor of IO tbh (even though bad high IO players obviously exist also).

healing certainly not the easiest on higher keys. You have to do everything DPS does AND heal.

- - - Updated - - -

Kinda true. I was pushing 22-25 keys last season and I count the hardest (but successful!) key I ran that season to be a PuG Motherlode +15 because the people in it did just about everything wrong in terms of pulls, cc/interupts etc. A friend of mine pushed even higher keys and commented healing a +26 as one of the easier runs he'd done because the players he grouped up with took absolutely no accidental damage at all and of course had their avoidance+vers gear in order.

BfA was a differenet beast. I had 90% versa on regualar pulls. Damage was still big, but there werent so many 100% to 10% dips which SL brought us. With a good and prepared group it is ofc. easier to heal, but there still is way more stress than a ranged dps gets also healers do damage too. RDPS will always be easiest role to play in dungeons and hands down least amount of "stressful" experience. And let's not forget there are melee healers, those guys are masochists.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe your tanks are bad?
I see plenty of tanks that barely get any dmg in 15ies.
As a healer I see plenty of bosses where I can just dps the whole time.

And my tank is 210 ilvl now too, I tank 12 to 14 just fine I almost never kite, unless its some enraged atonement dogs or something.

I remember dungeons where tanks really had to kite. Like mobs dealing 70% of tank HP, PER Hit. But that was in older challenge modes. And unnerfed TBC dungeons.

Current 14 keys have almost no one shot mechanics.

maybe you tank does small pulls? There are spots where you need to kite in a +15 if you do appropriate pulls. Also depending on affixes, like raging, necro, bolster, sang is forcing you to kite regardless.

[Razion]

I'm sorry, but that sounds awful. Mythic+ was by design the demanding version of the dungeons, requiring better cooperation and focus, where groups can push to see how far they can make it. Why do you try to turn it into another level of heroics?

I mean, if players are just going to keep looking for easier ways to do the content (through r.io or otherwise), couldn't it be argued that they don't really want the challenge? Otherwise they'd intentionally bring less represented specs and lower ilvs or try to teach people with lower scores. Seems like a catch 22: players asked for difficulty, maybe didn't actually want that but the idea of it.

[Argorwal]

Yep a single trash pack in hc shattered halls would destroy a tank without proper CC. I remember TBC and especially early cata heroic dungeons being harder than current +15s which are a joke, just a matter of learning a pre-determined route...

This is a joke right?

People had no problem clearing TBC heroics with random trade chat players who happened to be the first to whisper. No gear or experience vetting at all

Go do a +15 with the first people to apply and no item level or raider.io check and see how it goes.

It’s also funny about tanks dying because tanks are getting smashed by trash in SL, which is why so much kiting happens. If TBC had better tank threat kiting would happen there too. Kiting is a much more efficient method of reducing tank damage than hard cc.

And to be honest with classic TBC and Paladins/mages I’m expecting some kiting strats to develop for groups who want to quickly smash them for badges.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, if players are just going to keep looking for easier ways to do the content (through r.io or otherwise), couldn't it be argued that they don't really want the challenge? Otherwise they'd intentionally bring less represented specs and lower ilvs or try to teach people with lower scores. Seems like a catch 22: players asked for difficulty, maybe didn't actually want that but the idea of it.

Self inflicted handicaps don’t feel as rewarding as bringing everything you could and still having a challenge.

Bringing 2 item level 180 dps to a +15 isn’t some way to “make it challenging” it’s just stupid.

[ellieg]

I mean, if players are just going to keep looking for easier ways to do the content (through r.io or otherwise), couldn't it be argued that they don't really want the challenge? Otherwise they'd intentionally bring less represented specs and lower ilvs or try to teach people with lower scores. Seems like a catch 22: players asked for difficulty, maybe didn't actually want that but the idea of it.

I want to play "me+teammates vs computer" not "me vs teammates vs computer". The challenge should come from us interrupting the right stuff, executing our dps correctly, and avoiding bad stuff so healer has more time to dps to push timer. No one wants the challenge to be 1 of the dps not interrupting. Or a dps dying to easily avoidable mechanics so now u won't make time.

Ppl just need to learn their skill level and stick to groups they belong to. Spend the time to try to slowly push up the difficulty while honing their skills without crying about not getting invited to content they don't belong in yet / ever.

[Frolk]

nah - removal or toxic raider.io would instantly improve lfg experience.

Im sure everyone would instantly start to clear on time when we start inviting TERRIBLE players who recently were unable to join higher keys cause they were too bad.

There is a REASON we have raider.io, to weed out the shit players from the good ones.

[Glorious Leader]

Im sure everyone would instantly start to clear on time when we start inviting TERRIBLE players who recently were unable to join higher keys cause they were too bad.

There is a REASON we have raider.io, to weed out the shit players from the good ones.

This is of course wholly unsustainable

[T-34]

This is of course wholly unsustainable

One might entertain the notion, which many consider naive, that the "shit players" if forced to play together would enjoy the company of like-minded people.
One might even dare to entertain the notion, which even more consider naive, that it would encourage the "shit players" to try to become better players.
All of the above would make the game more sustainable in the long run.

I don't dare to assume that you meant that the game is unsustainable if the good players stop carrying the bad players.

[Frolk]

This is of course wholly unsustainable

Ye, imagine if good players only got to play with good players, what a horrible world.

Good players no longer had to carry the shitty players, EVER.

Meanwhile the shitters got to only play with shitters.

Glorious world.

[ydraw]

best way imo to make m+ less horiffic to pug is just to get rid of mdi no mdi no "meta" comp no "meta" comp means better m+ experience for lots more

It's not the MDI that creates meta comps. It's the lack of class balance.

The meta comps are not meta because of perception, they are objectively better at doing the content.

The meta in SL was well established long before the MDI time trials even started.

- - - Updated - - -

This is a joke right?

People had no problem clearing TBC heroics with random trade chat players who happened to be the first to whisper. No gear or experience vetting at all

People actually had a great deal of trouble clearing TBC heroics. And M+ dungeons are much harder than TBC heroics.

[lordjust]

r.io isn't really the problem but more the mentality of the community and general difficulty of the dungeons. You can have high io and still don't get invited because other classes and specs are seen to be better and therefore guarentee to some degree an easier run. I do +10 to +12 with the guild but when I try to pug I only get invites for +5 or +7 because warrior isn't part of the meta and generally is seen to be one of the bad classes at the moment. I probably get invites for +7s because I have the highest io and ilvl from all applicants.

And creating my own group also isn't helping much. You can find other DPS but finding a tank and a healer takes a lot of time because "meta" classes and specs are looking for groups with other "meta" classes and specs.

Also dungeons are a lot harder than in legion or bfa. Doing +10 or +15 in legion or bfa wasn't that hard. There weren't that many mechanics and they weren't as punishing. Trash in most shadowlands dungeons is actually harder than the boss itself. There's a lot more trash you need to interupt or stun so the competency of the whole group needs to be higher which in turn means players try to vet other players even more to minimize the chance of failure.