How to easily improve LFG and make M+ less horrific to pug

[erifwodahs]

Healer is actually by far the easiest with a competent group even during bursting and grievous weeks. I was healing +15's with a good group at 202 ilvl where dps knew how to interrupt, do proper damage and knew mechanics. Its yet another argument in favor of IO tbh (even though bad high IO players obviously exist also).

healing certainly not the easiest on higher keys. You have to do everything DPS does AND heal.

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Kinda true. I was pushing 22-25 keys last season and I count the hardest (but successful!) key I ran that season to be a PuG Motherlode +15 because the people in it did just about everything wrong in terms of pulls, cc/interupts etc. A friend of mine pushed even higher keys and commented healing a +26 as one of the easier runs he'd done because the players he grouped up with took absolutely no accidental damage at all and of course had their avoidance+vers gear in order.

BfA was a differenet beast. I had 90% versa on regualar pulls. Damage was still big, but there werent so many 100% to 10% dips which SL brought us. With a good and prepared group it is ofc. easier to heal, but there still is way more stress than a ranged dps gets also healers do damage too. RDPS will always be easiest role to play in dungeons and hands down least amount of "stressful" experience. And let's not forget there are melee healers, those guys are masochists.

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Maybe your tanks are bad?
I see plenty of tanks that barely get any dmg in 15ies.
As a healer I see plenty of bosses where I can just dps the whole time.

And my tank is 210 ilvl now too, I tank 12 to 14 just fine I almost never kite, unless its some enraged atonement dogs or something.

I remember dungeons where tanks really had to kite. Like mobs dealing 70% of tank HP, PER Hit. But that was in older challenge modes. And unnerfed TBC dungeons.

Current 14 keys have almost no one shot mechanics.

maybe you tank does small pulls? There are spots where you need to kite in a +15 if you do appropriate pulls. Also depending on affixes, like raging, necro, bolster, sang is forcing you to kite regardless.

[Razion]

I'm sorry, but that sounds awful. Mythic+ was by design the demanding version of the dungeons, requiring better cooperation and focus, where groups can push to see how far they can make it. Why do you try to turn it into another level of heroics?

I mean, if players are just going to keep looking for easier ways to do the content (through r.io or otherwise), couldn't it be argued that they don't really want the challenge? Otherwise they'd intentionally bring less represented specs and lower ilvs or try to teach people with lower scores. Seems like a catch 22: players asked for difficulty, maybe didn't actually want that but the idea of it.

[Argorwal]

Yep a single trash pack in hc shattered halls would destroy a tank without proper CC. I remember TBC and especially early cata heroic dungeons being harder than current +15s which are a joke, just a matter of learning a pre-determined route...

This is a joke right?

People had no problem clearing TBC heroics with random trade chat players who happened to be the first to whisper. No gear or experience vetting at all

Go do a +15 with the first people to apply and no item level or raider.io check and see how it goes.

It’s also funny about tanks dying because tanks are getting smashed by trash in SL, which is why so much kiting happens. If TBC had better tank threat kiting would happen there too. Kiting is a much more efficient method of reducing tank damage than hard cc.

And to be honest with classic TBC and Paladins/mages I’m expecting some kiting strats to develop for groups who want to quickly smash them for badges.

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I mean, if players are just going to keep looking for easier ways to do the content (through r.io or otherwise), couldn't it be argued that they don't really want the challenge? Otherwise they'd intentionally bring less represented specs and lower ilvs or try to teach people with lower scores. Seems like a catch 22: players asked for difficulty, maybe didn't actually want that but the idea of it.

Self inflicted handicaps don’t feel as rewarding as bringing everything you could and still having a challenge.

Bringing 2 item level 180 dps to a +15 isn’t some way to “make it challenging” it’s just stupid.

[ellieg]

I mean, if players are just going to keep looking for easier ways to do the content (through r.io or otherwise), couldn't it be argued that they don't really want the challenge? Otherwise they'd intentionally bring less represented specs and lower ilvs or try to teach people with lower scores. Seems like a catch 22: players asked for difficulty, maybe didn't actually want that but the idea of it.

I want to play "me+teammates vs computer" not "me vs teammates vs computer". The challenge should come from us interrupting the right stuff, executing our dps correctly, and avoiding bad stuff so healer has more time to dps to push timer. No one wants the challenge to be 1 of the dps not interrupting. Or a dps dying to easily avoidable mechanics so now u won't make time.

Ppl just need to learn their skill level and stick to groups they belong to. Spend the time to try to slowly push up the difficulty while honing their skills without crying about not getting invited to content they don't belong in yet / ever.

[Frolk]

nah - removal or toxic raider.io would instantly improve lfg experience.

Im sure everyone would instantly start to clear on time when we start inviting TERRIBLE players who recently were unable to join higher keys cause they were too bad.

There is a REASON we have raider.io, to weed out the shit players from the good ones.

[Glorious Leader]

Im sure everyone would instantly start to clear on time when we start inviting TERRIBLE players who recently were unable to join higher keys cause they were too bad.

There is a REASON we have raider.io, to weed out the shit players from the good ones.

This is of course wholly unsustainable

[T-34]

This is of course wholly unsustainable

One might entertain the notion, which many consider naive, that the "shit players" if forced to play together would enjoy the company of like-minded people.
One might even dare to entertain the notion, which even more consider naive, that it would encourage the "shit players" to try to become better players.
All of the above would make the game more sustainable in the long run.

I don't dare to assume that you meant that the game is unsustainable if the good players stop carrying the bad players.

[Frolk]

This is of course wholly unsustainable

Ye, imagine if good players only got to play with good players, what a horrible world.

Good players no longer had to carry the shitty players, EVER.

Meanwhile the shitters got to only play with shitters.

Glorious world.

[ydraw]

best way imo to make m+ less horiffic to pug is just to get rid of mdi no mdi no "meta" comp no "meta" comp means better m+ experience for lots more

It's not the MDI that creates meta comps. It's the lack of class balance.

The meta comps are not meta because of perception, they are objectively better at doing the content.

The meta in SL was well established long before the MDI time trials even started.

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This is a joke right?

People had no problem clearing TBC heroics with random trade chat players who happened to be the first to whisper. No gear or experience vetting at all

People actually had a great deal of trouble clearing TBC heroics. And M+ dungeons are much harder than TBC heroics.

[lordjust]

r.io isn't really the problem but more the mentality of the community and general difficulty of the dungeons. You can have high io and still don't get invited because other classes and specs are seen to be better and therefore guarentee to some degree an easier run. I do +10 to +12 with the guild but when I try to pug I only get invites for +5 or +7 because warrior isn't part of the meta and generally is seen to be one of the bad classes at the moment. I probably get invites for +7s because I have the highest io and ilvl from all applicants.

And creating my own group also isn't helping much. You can find other DPS but finding a tank and a healer takes a lot of time because "meta" classes and specs are looking for groups with other "meta" classes and specs.

Also dungeons are a lot harder than in legion or bfa. Doing +10 or +15 in legion or bfa wasn't that hard. There weren't that many mechanics and they weren't as punishing. Trash in most shadowlands dungeons is actually harder than the boss itself. There's a lot more trash you need to interupt or stun so the competency of the whole group needs to be higher which in turn means players try to vet other players even more to minimize the chance of failure.

[Logwyn]

Yep a single trash pack in hc shattered halls would destroy a tank without proper CC. I remember TBC and especially early cata heroic dungeons being harder than current +15s which are a joke, just a matter of learning a pre-determined route...

Those were the good old days. I miss them.

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People actually had a great deal of trouble clearing TBC heroics. And M+ dungeons are much harder than TBC heroics.

No M+ are not harder than TBC heroics.

[dacoolist]

Those were the good old days. I miss them.

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No M+ are not harder than TBC heroics.

You mean like M+2 or you mean M+15 or higher , because I could agree that lower mythics, but IDK about 15s or UP fam

[Kokolums]

New feature:

You enter the LFG interface. You list the dungeons that you want to run along with their levels. For example, all SL dungeons at keystone levels 14, 15 and 16. Anyone making a group that fits those criteria can instantly see all people that potentially want to run that key and can invite them.

Easy peazy. You no longer need to manually apply and reapply for hours. Just list your preferences, hit up LFG and wait until you get invited.

This feature is actually already implemented.

It is called COMMUNITIES. You can actually create a community dedicated to advertising for runs for specific key levels. Beyond that, you could even create a community for each dungeon. If you want to run Sanguine Depths, you can join the Sanguine Depths community.

Or you could make tabs for each dungeon in a dungeon community.

1. Create a keys community.
2. Create 1 general tab for people to sit in when not interested in keys.
3. Create 8 tabs, 1 for each dungeon. If people want a dungeon, they join that tab.

[dacoolist]

This feature is actually already implemented.

It is called COMMUNITIES. You can actually create a community dedicated to advertising for runs for specific key levels. Beyond that, you could even create a community for each dungeon. If you want to run Sanguine Depths, you can join the Sanguine Depths community.

Or you could make tabs for each dungeon in a dungeon community.

1. Create a keys community.
2. Create 1 general tab for people to sit in when not interested in keys.
3. Create 8 tabs, 1 for each dungeon. If people want a dungeon, they join that tab.

I actually really like the key community idea here!

[Argorwal]

Those were the good old days. I miss them.

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No M+ are not harder than TBC heroics.

Low keys like +2-5 maybe, but anything higher mythic+ is massively more difficult than TBC heroics.

And when TBC classic comes out they are going to get destroyed.

[Trend]

nah - removal or toxic raider.io would instantly improve lfg experience.

Nah, good players would just PUG less if at all. Raider.io is the reason you can PUG non-trivial keys at all. Much easier just to wait for friends to log in than to waste time trying to carry random shitters. By shitters I mean the people who suck too much to get invited to groups so they bitch about raider.io on forums.

[Thirtyrock]

Sounds neat, i can pick the best players more easily.

Thing is, as long as there are more supply than demand for dpsers, the low ilvl+rio+non-meta dps is gonna get shafted 100% of the time.

The only way to solve the experience is for blizz to add more fucking tanks and healers. Seriously, we have 4 classes that have nothing but 3 dps specs each to choose from... and given that these classes have so many dps specs between them its quite likely that one or several of them will be among the top preforming specs (read meta), so we are gonna see an even higher representation of these classes than others given the higher ratio of dps/tank in raids.

Another idea would be to start designing raid encounters with 3 or 4 tanks in mind. Contributing to an overall larger part of the playerbase that mains as a tank.

There will never not be a tank shortage unless the vast majority of a Tank's responsibilities are removed. It's not that we have too few tank specs, it's that we have too few people wanting to tank.

I used to think that designing raid encounters around 3/4 tanks would help with the tank shortage, but M+ basically does away with the incentive to have 2 tanks for 25 people. Anyone who wants to tank M+ can roll a tank and tank without affecting the balance of raids. People still aren't doing it because most people don't enjoy tanking. And I think the consensus view is correct, people don't enjoy tanking because you get trashed if anything goes wrong, regardless of whether or not it's your fault.

You've got to have thick skin and have to be willing to prepare far more than most players in the group. It's super satisfying when it goes right, but it's painful when it doesn't.

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Well, if it is not fun, it is boring. It is kinda the definition of 'not being fun'. And again, DPS, once a certain key level, do more than a tank.

Fun and boring are not antonyms.

Having your leg broken is not fun but also not boring.

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I mean, if players are just going to keep looking for easier ways to do the content (through r.io or otherwise), couldn't it be argued that they don't really want the challenge? Otherwise they'd intentionally bring less represented specs and lower ilvs or try to teach people with lower scores. Seems like a catch 22: players asked for difficulty, maybe didn't actually want that but the idea of it.

you're mistaking efficiency for easiness. Players are going to try to complete the highest level of content they can do. Bringing the right teammates along will help with that.

When you're playing with people you don't know and aren't necessarily going to play with often, you look for ways to reduce the randomness that random players bring, like pulling in the best specs or players with high r.io or high gear, etc. Your goal is not EASINESS or you'd just do Heroics, your goal is success, which means hedging the potential downsides.

I want to clear hard content (hard for me, anyways). If bringing Class A is better than Class B I'll do it because it helps me achieve my goals.