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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    ....
    It all comes down to the way, that Blizzard tells stories. Its so character focused, that the world itself, does not really change that much.
    Not bad that they focus on NPC instead of the entire race. But the problem is that they focus on only one character at a time.

    If for example BFA were all the NPCs saying that this is bullshit. That Teldrazzil is unattainable (or whatever event it is). Which is an insult to Honor.

    But instead we have a huge group of NPCs who did not care about everything and were only affected by the fact that Baien being a traitor is prosecuted as Traitor.
    So the rebellion is because they punish a traitor.

    And besides that it seems that this NPC in the end does not represent anything of the entire race. That is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    When and where did they clarify that they let the civilians escape? What "reasons"? I can make a "reason" out of anything. That doesn't make it good.

    I think the OP should stop whining. Since Cata, Alliance has been losing on all fronts, despite the devs saying otherwise.

    The Alliance lost Hillsbrad Foothills, Azhara, Ashenvale and Darkshore devastated, Teldrassil destoyed, citizens murdered, Theramore destoyed, Night elves in particular are the devs punching bags since Cata with the Park in Stormwind, that's been a big ol' crater until Legion, Darkshore's first hit with the Cataclysm, Cenarion Hold destoyed by Sargeras, Nightelves bombed in Stonetalon. Additionaly the Alliance lost important lore characters to the Horde, too. Sira Moonwarden, Calia Menethil, Derek Proudmoore.

    Horde has gained or just destroyed Alliance territory since forever. What has the Alliance actually gained or won territory wise really?
    Nothing comes to mind at the spur of the moment.

    Well OP, there's a price for being the winning faction. Suck it up.
    They are supposed to silence him in the novel.
    Well the "Victories alianz" are like the "Honor of the Horde". They tell you but they never show you.
    To the Sumo it is like in thorns wars that tell you about a victory that was off camera and in Cata and that they hung the orcs from the trees. Which would be to be shown in the game.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-02-26 at 12:18 PM.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Too many cooks. And not a single good one :P
    You're right, the majority of the player base needs to learn how to be a real "Chef" before they start critiquing others in their own line of work. ;P

    Too many back seat drivers, IMO. People need to chill, sit back and enjoy the ride or get out and walk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Have you seen my posts over the past few days? You should be asking yourself why I'm alive, not why I don't have friends.
    Change is inevitable, Growth is optional.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    at least terrorizing defenseless civilians was just an outlier from the Forsaken from Classic to Cata; it became the norm in MoP and BFA

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    and I hate it; I want the noble savages Warcraft 3 Horde back
    Those would be the Frostwolf Orcs (suppressing their rage, unlike other Orcs), Darkspear Trolls (not attacking on sight and abandoning cannibalism) and the Bloodhoof Tauren.
    Can't say that on the Forsaken undead, the Bilgewater Goblins, the other Orc clans and the other Troll tribes.
    Meanwhile, Blood elves were never savages and i don't know what Pandaren are doing in the Horde, in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    This, but with a few additions of the alliance:
    I would consider them "colder", killing, maiming and torturing out of conviction rather than hatred. They genuinely believe they are right, whether that is through delusional hypocrisy (Garithos), bureaucratic strictness / politics (King Menethil), "ends justifies the means" desperate machiavellism (Arthas, Illidan) and likely other examples.

    So yeah, i would argue that on the surface it is about ratio/ideology (alliance) versus naturalism/passion (horde), and the problems that trying to see and interact with the world only through that lens brings.
    What you described is, pretty much, the Tushui and Huojin:
    "The way of the Tushui is one of a principled life. Followers of this discipline believe there is a moral certainty to the world: one correct path of right and wrong.

    These Values are immutable, and must be preserved no matter what the cost. Even if it means self sacrifice, or painful losses in the pursuit of a higher ideal."

    "The Path of the Huojin is marked by practical and decisive action. Followers of this discipline believe that morals and ideals are not absolute but change with circumstances.

    As such, a Huojin Master must remain flexible in his or her thinking, always evaluating the greater good."

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Keristrasza View Post
    You're right, the majority of the player base needs to learn how to be a real "Chef" before they start critiquing others in their own line of work. ;P

    Too many back seat drivers, IMO. People need to chill, sit back and enjoy the ride or get out and walk.
    Uhh. Not when they're paying. Stop acting like WoW's story is some gift they're working on for free and graciously giving away for free. People have every right to trash it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    Please change your avatar picture. it is too creepy.
    Careful what you wish for. The new one might be even worse

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    If for example BFA were all the NPCs saying that this is bullshit. That Teldrazzil is unattainable (or whatever event it is). Which is an insult to Honor.

    But instead we have a huge group of NPCs who did not care about everything and were only affected by the fact that Baien being a traitor is prosecuted as Traitor.
    So the rebellion is because they punish a traitor.
    Just the Burning of Teldrassil, the most heineous crime comitted by the Horde since the story is told in World of Warcraft...

    I think they should go back to the old days of storytelling, or to quote Chris Metzen:

    There are two main characters in World of Warcraft: the world and the player

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    at least terrorizing defenseless civilians was just an outlier from the Forsaken from Classic to Cata; it became the norm in MoP and BFA

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    and I hate it; I want the noble savages Warcraft 3 Horde back
    At the end of WC3, the orcish story was done. Thrall was an unquestioned Moses figure who'd already solved all their problems off-screen. Durotar was not defined as a shity wasteland so they had no resource deprivation. Their problems with the night elves were solved by the handshake arrangement afterwards. Jaina was fine with them and the only humans were a continent away. Their allies had nothing to clash with them about because they were the same as they were and had no mutually exclusive interests. This leaves three stories with an internal element - taming the land, done in TFT, dealing with orcs who were actually involved with the Legion, unlike Thrall - done in RoC through Grom, who's now dead, or fighting humans who were strawmen who didn't understand that the orcs were now goodies - done in TFT through Rexxar.

    Everything else can only be the result of an external force showing up and kicking them in the balls, causing them to react out of the goodness of their heart. There's a reason the Alliance have an actual story with bosses like Onyxia, Rag and so forth, while the Horde, per the text itself go there solely because it's a nice thing to do - there's drama in one and none in the other. The only equivalent ongoing storyline the Horde had in Vanilla was the Forsaken's nemesis in the Scarlet Crusade and the Forsaken themselves were bolted on to enable conflict, one of several such means, like the Warsong Clan and the need for lumber which were alien to the WC3 setup.

    Without retcons, from Durotar's status to Thrall's racial guilt, to the addition of the Eastern Horde races there is no conflict, internal or otherwise and ergo no story. The WC3 Horde is all fine in the context of its own complete story but there's a reason it's relegated to a bonus campaign with no impact on the overarching plot in TFT and that's because it has no hooks to anything. The only thing that exceeds its status as a storytelling wasteland is the post-Anduin Alliance and for much the same reasons - perfect leader, complete material satisfaction, homogenous allied cultures.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-02-26 at 01:19 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    because nothing in it contradicts what Broll says about the majority being addicted to fel as fel doesn't only come from demon them self's but as Broll says burning life for magic.
    Most blood elves never munched on fel, they drained mana from mana bearing vermin, which has no connection to fel, nor does it create it. This too has been addressed many years ago


    How did the blood elven fel eye glint become so widespread? The Warcraft Encyclopedia suggests that Rommath only taught the blood elves of Azeroth about how to siphon arcane magic, as most of the populace would likely be "horrified" if they knew the true extent of Kael's dealings with Illidan.

    The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green. You could be the most pious of priests or most outdoorsy of Farstriders, chances are, if you were a high elf in Quel'Thalas or Outland following the Third War, you were around fel energies, and your eyes would turn green.
    Fel magic was used to rebuild the kingdom, so its radiation caused the green eyes.

  8. #228
    Here we go again with the Horde playerbase and their sanctimonious feeling of being oppressed by Blizzard.

    Yes, Yes, Blizzard are Alliance-biased, that's why BfA started with the genocide of the Night elves and had no Void elf involvement at all in its Old God storyline.
    Some will tell you that the Light is the only path. The only weapon that can stop the enemies of Azeroth. But we see alternatives. Many roads, many possibilities, that are open to us. There will be those who doubt you. Who question your resolve, your ability to harness powers that have caused the downfall of weaker wills. Together, we will prove them wrong.

  9. #229
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Most blood elves never munched on fel, they drained mana from mana bearing vermin, which has no connection to fel, nor does it create it. This too has been addressed many years ago




    Fel magic was used to rebuild the kingdom, so its radiation caused the green eyes.
    Ya they retconned it down the line as your quote shows as it’s from cata. Back in TBC-wrath when the comic was made the majority were fel addicted as broll says.

  10. #230
    Blizz bad! Insert empty ramblings about Alliance bias here.

    No, Blizz bad because insert empty ramblings about Horde bias here.

    The emotional energy you people drain into this topic is amusing.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Ya they retconned it down the line as your quote shows as it’s from cata. Back in TBC-wrath when the comic was made the majority were fel addicted as broll says.
    Not really the encyclopedia stated from the very beginning most would be horrified by such methods, it mentions Rommath taught them specifically how to drain arcane magic. This was the baseline from the get go and was released prior to BC. People just went on about how they are all fel crackheads, due to their general addiction to magic.

  12. #232
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Not really the encyclopedia stated from the very beginning most would be horrified by such methods, it mentions Rommath taught them specifically how to drain arcane magic. This was the baseline from the get go and was released prior to BC. People just went on about how they are all fel crackheads, due to their general addiction to magic.
    The encyclopedia doesn’t contradict what broll says at all and neither does any thing else from the time period. All it states is that they wouldn’t feed off demons not that they wouldn’t burn life for magic which is another way to make fel and the one Broll points to.

    You could say Broll was just wrong which works with the Cata era retcon but before that point there was nothing saying they didn’t feed off of fel and no writer would put in a statement which is meant to be shown as wrong but then never actually contradict it in any way.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Blizz bad! Insert empty ramblings about Alliance bias here.

    No, Blizz bad because insert empty ramblings about Horde bias here.

    The emotional energy you people drain into this topic is amusing.
    What else is fiction good for if not?
    It would still be great to be able to discuss the plot and not the writers. Well, that's what it is.

  14. #234
    Because immigrants are big, green, savage monsters hopped up on the blood of their enemies, ready to rape and pillage right?

    Fuck sake these writers are so fucking backwards. What's with SJWs and constantly comparing monsters to the real world's struggling immigrants and POC?

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    making the Horde evil twice and going against their Warcraft 3 honorable mantra is pure Alliance bias, it was obviously to stroke the Alliance's heroic and goody-two-shoes tragic-victim to hero ego

    I mean I wish that was the case, but from an alliance PoV the alliance is a faction of powerless bully victims that can not stand up for themselves.
    Or like a beaten spouse that goes back to their abuser again and again.

    Nothing heroic about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    That is not different than what the alliance did in Taurujo or with the stonespire tribe of taurens, it was, blizzard will, for the rule of cool, make the enemy faction look worse for then.
    I very much doubt that this is presented anywhere in this form. If I am mistaken, please provide me the example and I will admit that I am wrong and that I learned something new today.

    Once again, just to be sure: Attacking Brennendam and killing everyone would have been "fine". An act of war, sure, many would even call it merciless, but nothing unsual here. The problem is not the attack itself, it is the HOW and the aftermath.

  16. #236
    Both times the new horde was villain batted the horde effectively defeated itself and then the alliance went "yeah...lets have peace and stuff until you decide to murder us again".

    If it was done to make the alliance feel good they'd actually be the one ending these wars, not the punching bag of the horde until the horde realizes its being evil again.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    You can’t be a moral compass and stand by/defend a genocide.

    The old Tauren/writers had an actual grasp on what being a moral compass entailed which is why Cairne stoop up to garrosh because of a few night elfs while Baine does nothing even after the majority of the race were killed off. The new writers want to frame Baine the same way his father was but they frankly just suck at it which is rather pathetic when they have Carine right there to use as an example.
    Tbf here, the Tauren prior to Cata were led by a good leader. Tauren post-Cairne...well...weren't. How many times had Baine been captured by the Mawsworn again?

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    At this rate, I am fairly certain that the Mawsworn played with Baine's mind, and allowed him to "escape" as a means of reaching false hope, just so the Mawsworn could jump his ass and ruin all hopes of escaping. Kind of like a sick little game, because of how absolutely fucking dumb Baine is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Just the Burning of Teldrassil, the most heineous crime comitted by the Horde since the story is told in World of Warcraft...

    I think they should go back to the old days of storytelling, or to quote Chris Metzen:
    Except we're legit the main centerpiece of the entire fucking game. Literally 90% of the shit in Warcraft currently wouldn't be the way it is now without us. We're literally the fuckin guys that carry the entire Alliance and Horde to victory. EVERY! FUCKING! TIME! Cause, without us, the Alliance and Horde would not exist anymore, because they alone are fucking morons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    At the end of WC3, the orcish story was done. Thrall was an unquestioned Moses figure who'd already solved all their problems off-screen. Durotar was not defined as a shity wasteland so they had no resource deprivation. Their problems with the night elves were solved by the handshake arrangement afterwards. Jaina was fine with them and the only humans were a continent away. Their allies had nothing to clash with them about because they were the same as they were and had no mutually exclusive interests. This leaves three stories with an internal element - taming the land, done in TFT, dealing with orcs who were actually involved with the Legion, unlike Thrall - done in RoC through Grom, who's now dead, or fighting humans who were strawmen who didn't understand that the orcs were now goodies - done in TFT through Rexxar.

    Everything else can only be the result of an external force showing up and kicking them in the balls, causing them to react out of the goodness of their heart. There's a reason the Alliance have an actual story with bosses like Onyxia, Rag and so forth, while the Horde, per the text itself go there solely because it's a nice thing to do - there's drama in one and none in the other. The only equivalent ongoing storyline the Horde had in Vanilla was the Forsaken's nemesis in the Scarlet Crusade and the Forsaken themselves were bolted on to enable conflict, one of several such means, like the Warsong Clan and the need for lumber which were alien to the WC3 setup.

    Without retcons, from Durotar's status to Thrall's racial guilt, to the addition of the Eastern Horde races there is no conflict, internal or otherwise and ergo no story. The WC3 Horde is all fine in the context of its own complete story but there's a reason it's relegated to a bonus campaign with no impact on the overarching plot in TFT and that's because it has no hooks to anything. The only thing that exceeds its status as a storytelling wasteland is the post-Anduin Alliance and for much the same reasons - perfect leader, complete material satisfaction, homogenous allied cultures.
    I mean...

    If you actually PLAY Warcraft 3, you would know why the Horde became as strong as it was in Classic-WoTLK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Here we go again with the Horde playerbase and their sanctimonious feeling of being oppressed by Blizzard.

    Yes, Yes, Blizzard are Alliance-biased, that's why BfA started with the genocide of the Night elves and had no Void elf involvement at all in its Old God storyline.
    Or Theramore, or Southshore...or...a lot of other Alliance areas...

    "BUT MUH CAMP!" lol

    Or, even better "WHAT ABOUT DAZAR'ALOR?!" Which is funny, cause the Alliance literally tried negotiating with Rastakhan multiple fucking times. Hell, Genn legit asked Rastakhan to surrender, so that no further bloodshed would be spilled. And ya wanna know what the fucking retard Rastakhan did in response? HE FUCKIN ROASTED GENN'S FURRY ASS AND SAID "Fuck you, I'm fighting you bitches till I die", and guess what happened...

    He died, and apparently Talanji hates us cause we "BRUTALLY MURDERED HER DADDY", LIKE BITCH, PLAY YOUR FUCKING PART AND PISS OFF! OML...

    Fuckin' hate the Alliance and Horde conflict in WoW, dude. Oml, the fuckin COSMIC WAR MAKES MORE SENSE THAN THIS! At least the storytelling actually makes sense from a 10-D chess perspective of things. But...the Alliance and Horde conflict is somehow almost always cringe or just fucking dumb lore-wise. I hate it.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    What else is fiction good for if not?
    It would still be great to be able to discuss the plot and not the writers. Well, that's what it is.
    How dare you imply the writers aren't deliberately trying to ruin our lives. You don't understand - Christie Golden has RUINED the lore evenfishesbeenheresinceriseofthehordeandhasneverreallynotbeenhere

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Fuckin' hate the Alliance and Horde conflict in WoW, dude. Oml, the fuckin COSMIC WAR MAKES MORE SENSE THAN THIS! At least the storytelling actually makes sense from a 10-D chess perspective of things. But...the Alliance and Horde conflict is somehow almost always cringe or just fucking dumb lore-wise. I hate it.
    Of course the cosmic war makes more sense. My character is an almighty master of the Void, whose talents are wasted on weakling beta creatures like the orcs. Bring on the cosmic war already.
    Some will tell you that the Light is the only path. The only weapon that can stop the enemies of Azeroth. But we see alternatives. Many roads, many possibilities, that are open to us. There will be those who doubt you. Who question your resolve, your ability to harness powers that have caused the downfall of weaker wills. Together, we will prove them wrong.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Of course the cosmic war makes more sense. My character is an almighty master of the Void, whose talents are wasted on weakling beta creatures like the orcs. Bring on the cosmic war already.
    I only claim it makes more sense cause we've BEEN in the Cosmic War already. Legion, BFA (Kinda?), and SL are all based on the Cosmic War. Going back to mere Alliance and Horde squabble is just pointless, at this rate. And while Death is a major threat atm (Especially the Jailer, who plans on unmaking the entire verse once released from the Maw), these 4 cosmologies of Life, Order, Death, and Chaos are nowhere near as crazy as the Light and Void conflict (Not to mention Light and Shadow are the fundamental forces of the Cosmos and have a noticeably higher spot in the Cosmic chart). Hell, we don't even know if the First Ones are above Light and Shadow yet (Which I assume they ARE, but who knows...), so how tf are we supposed to run all the way back to Alliance and Horde shit if even Blizzard doesn't give two shits about it? "BUT THE ALLIANCE AND HORDE ARE THE DNA OF WOW!" MAYBE IN 2008!!!! BUT THIS ISN'T WRATH OF THE LICH KING ANYMORE! The DNA for WoW has changed entirely...

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    But yes, the Players have done a lot of shit that makes their presence in the Alliance and Horde conflict meaningless...

    I wouldn't go so far as to say RP stuff like what you're doing, but we are clearly fuckin special and have more on our plates than some meaningless Azerothian conflict.

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