Thrall's panel really shows how out of touch the writer's are with the Horde.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's a kekworthy take ngl

You can tell who's made the right choice because the High Elves have the functioning city, well-established government with one of the last competent people on Azeroth at the head, and the gradual resurrection of their civilization.

I assume you mean the blood elfs not high? Unles your talking about Dal.

Assuming you are talking about the blood elfs they are doing well dispute making the wrong choice not because they made the right one. Choosing to start sucking in fel lead to a bunch of wretched there prince joining the legion and other hard ships which were only over come because they had outside aid from the goats, there were a ton of negative consequences that they could have avoided if they made the same choice as the high elfs.

[Le Conceptuel]

I assume you mean the blood elfs not high? Unles your talking about Dal.

Assuming you are talking about the blood elfs they are doing well dispute making the wrong choice not because they made the right one. Choosing to start sucking in fel lead to a bunch of wretched there prince joining the legion and other hard ships which were only over come because they had outside aid from the goats, there were a ton of negative consequences that they could have avoided if they made the same choice as the high elfs.

I was speaking sarcastically, since the Blood Elves do have those traits as opposed to the High Elves. As for the High Elves, most of them were already in a state where the loss of the Sunwell would not be as crippling - citizens of Dalaran or Theramore, or Farstriders. They were fairly distant from Silvermoon to begin with and the majority of them were in lower areas of the Eastern Kingdoms or in Theramore by that point.

Even further, most of the Blood Elves weren't actually addicted to Fel, with the only information indicating so being a retcon directly contradicting existing information in Exploring Azeroth: Eastern Kingdoms. Many of them simply happened to be in the vicinity, and the creation of Wretched came from overindulging in magic of any kind. The Blood Elves were not all willingly consuming Fel magic, but simply corrupted by its influence and suffering from the destruction of the Sunwell.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I was speaking sarcastically, since the Blood Elves do have those traits as opposed to the High Elves. As for the High Elves, most of them were already in a state where the loss of the Sunwell would not be as crippling - citizens of Dalaran or Theramore, or Farstriders. They were fairly distant from Silvermoon to begin with and the majority of them were in lower areas of the Eastern Kingdoms or in Theramore by that point.

Even further, most of the Blood Elves weren't actually addicted to Fel, with the only information indicating so being a retcon directly contradicting existing information in Exploring Azeroth: Eastern Kingdoms. Many of them simply happened to be in the vicinity, and the creation of Wretched came from overindulging in magic of any kind. The Blood Elves were not all willingly consuming Fel magic, but simply corrupted by its influence and suffering from the destruction of the Sunwell.

Most blood elf's were fel addicted before retcons and the wretched were a purely bloodelf thing from said fel feeding before retcons as well. the high elf's choice is just objectively the better one as it had pretty much no long time side effects with the need to retcon all the negatives out like they did with the blood elfs.

[Accendor]

You are trying to say the entire faction is bad, because of their bad writing in a shit rehashed plot from MOP

Ok, so here is the problem with that:

Yes, their writing is shit.
Yes, I hate this development too.
But it IS the official writing. The whole expansion was based on the premise, that the horde is evil and to show that to the players.
I'm not only talking about Teldrassil (which would be enough on its own), its also about things like Brennadam and the way they act there. Its debatable if that city is a legitimate military target at that point in time, but lets assume it is, then there is still a difference between conquering a town or even destroying and killing everyone in it and impaling people alive to let their children watch them die slowly.
There were a lot of those situation in BfA where we could have had "grey" moments but the horde ended up completely overdoing it.

It sucks a lot that player agency meant nothing here, because from what I read MOST horde players hate this development too.

This does not change that is there now however and what the official story tells us. Everything else is fanfiction.

[Combatbutler]

Most blood elf's were fel addicted before retcons and the wretched were a purely bloodelf thing from said fel feeding before retcons as well. the high elf's choice is just objectively the better one as it had pretty much no long time side effects with the need to retcon all the negatives out like they did with the blood elfs.

The very first canonical statement regarding fel addiction, the warcraft encyclopedia, makes it clear the vast majority was not, which was reinforced again and again, while in universe outsiders called them fel addicts, like Broll , the night elf troops in Suramar or Shaw etc.

While we know for a fact that most of them simply were not.

The high elfs were fine the blood elfs became fel crack whores and pushed there drug use onto there kids. It’s pretty safe to say the high elfs made the right choice.

High elf mentality can be summed up as vegan anti vaxxers, the addiction was killing the sick,old and young, while weakening them while being surrounded by enemies. Something had to be done about it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The very first canonical statement regarding fel addiction, the warcraft encyclopedia, makes it clear the vast majority was not, which was reinforced again and again, while in universe outsiders called them fel addicts, like Broll , the night elf troops in Suramar or Shaw etc.

While we know for a fact that most of them simply were not.

I assume your talking about this?

Blood elves no longer truly consider themselves high elves, and they tend to have different priorities and behaviors than their high elf kindred. Unlike high elves, blood elves have decided that in the absence of the Sunwell, they will feed their hunger for arcane magic by draining that magic from alternative sources.

However, some basic similarities remain between blood elves and high elves, for both groups belong to the same race. As with high elves, most blood elves are not spellcasters. Blood elves do not drain magic in order to engage in spellcasting, but simply to feed their addiction to arcane magic. Gaining this magic on a reasonably regular basis has not given immortality to the blood elves, who are just as prone to illness, injury, and age as their high elf brethren. To date, there have been no observations of a significant difference between blood elf and high elf lifespans.

On several occasions after the Sunwell's defilement, Kael'thas publicly asserted that his people would die unless they found a new source of magic. There can be no doubt that withdrawal from prolonged exposure to arcane magic is a very unpleasant process: to this day it is not impossible that a high elf might choose to give in to the addiction and become one of the blood elves. Technically, though, the prince was mistaken. According to the top priests and medics on Azeroth, the only high elves who perished due to the Sunwell's loss were the very old, the very young, and elves who were already in poor health.

This is not to say, however, that withdrawal from magic would leave the blood elves unharmed. On the contrary, permanent mental or physical damage is possible.

Even so, the prince's relatively quick acceptance of dire measures (e.g., draining magic from demons) is by no means characteristic of blood elves in general. The blood elves of Outland have by now discovered Kael'thas' agreement with Illidan, and they have for the most part become convinced of its necessity. Most blood elves still live on Azeroth, though. Few of these elves know of Kael'thas' pact with Illidan, and many would be horrified if they discovered it. Draining magic from small mana-bearing vermin is a far cry from draining magic from demons. Yet, as their hunger grows, blood elves--particularly those in Outland--are becoming increasingly inured to the things they must do in order to obtain more magic.

because nothing in it contradicts what Broll says about the majority being addicted to fel as fel doesn't only come from demon them self's but as Broll says burning life for magic.

[Ardenaso]

Ok, so here is the problem with that:

Yes, their writing is shit.
Yes, I hate this development too.
But it IS the official writing. The whole expansion was based on the premise, that the horde is evil and to show that to the players.
I'm not only talking about Teldrassil (which would be enough on its own), its also about things like Brennadam and the way they act there. Its debatable if that city is a legitimate military target at that point in time, but lets assume it is, then there is still a difference between conquering a town or even destroying and killing everyone in it and impaling people alive to let their children watch them die slowly.
There were a lot of those situation in BfA where we could have had "grey" moments but the horde ended up completely overdoing it.

It sucks a lot that player agency meant nothing here, because from what I read MOST horde players hate this development too.

This does not change that is there now however and what the official story tells us. Everything else is fanfiction.

making the Horde evil twice and going against their Warcraft 3 honorable mantra is pure Alliance bias, it was obviously to stroke the Alliance's heroic and goody-two-shoes tragic-victim to hero ego

[Syegfryed]

But it IS the official writing. The whole expansion was based on the premise, that the horde is evil and to show that to the players..

and here is the problem with that:

By oficial writing, no, the horde is not evil, it is confirmed by blizzard that is not the horde is evil and everything is Sylvanas fault.

Again, same thing, if you still want to go for "official writing" you can'y say horde is evil, period, because they themselves wrote that all the blame is on Sylvanas.

its also about things like Brennadam and the way they act there. Its debatable if that city is a legitimate military target at that point in time, but lets assume it is, then there is still a difference between conquering a town or even destroying and killing everyone in it and impaling people alive to let their children watch them die slowly.

That is not different than what the alliance did in Taurujo or with the stonespire tribe of taurens, it was, blizzard will, for the rule of cool, make the enemy faction look worse for then.

[username993720]

making the Horde evil twice and going against their Warcraft 3 honorable mantra is pure Alliance bias, it was obviously to stroke the Alliance's heroic and goody-two-shoes tragic-victim to hero ego

I wouldn't say they were honorable. They were just looking for a home, at that time.
After they settled in, and got all comfortable, the itch of war started to kick-in.
Besides, back then, they didn't have Forsaken undead, Goblins and Mag'har Orcs among them.

and here is the problem with that:

By oficial writing, no, the horde is not evil, it is confirmed by blizzard that is not the horde is evil and everything is Sylvanas fault.

Again, same thing, if you still want to go for "official writing" you can'y say horde is evil, period, because they themselves wrote that all the blame is on Sylvanas.

They played along, and fully cooperated, in both the case of Sylvanas and Garrosh.
They only turned against their leaders once they turned on them.

[Eggroll]

I wondered why they would have a Thrall panel at all. It's not like he played a major role in any shape or form since Cata, save his last few appearances in BfA and his little visit in WoD where he offed Garrosh. Well, maybe he stood around a little bit in WoD, and you got his artifact from him in Legion. But story wise ... why would they even dig him out now?

Regarding the OP's complaint about the horde being considered all savages: you can't have your cake and it, too. Wanting to cheer for two genociders like Garrosh and Sylvanas but also NOT wanting to be considerd the "monster" faction? Hardly plausible.

Personally I think they went too far with Theramore and Teldrassil of course. Not only from an Alliance point of view but they maneuvered the Horde into an awkward corner. There's nowhere to go from there, really. Forever branded as the genociders. This is not what I would call morally grey.

[Syegfryed]

The thing is, we don't know if the Orcs started the conflict and the Kaldorei joined the alliance. Or if the Kaldorei joined the Alliance and that started the conflict.

They would not have joined the alliance without reasons, and the reason was the conflict with the warsong, even if we don't know who started, and is more likely the night elves, they had to get help from the alliance

They are no more xenophobic than any race being invaded by an army.

they were not being invaded, a group of other race was in the borders of a land that was supposed to be inhabiteded, and start killing then by cutting trees.

You didn't play W3 did you? The Wisp are dead Kaldorei. There is no logic to "Don't defend them." You can only see the point of view of the orcs.

The orcs did nothing to the wisps, they were just cutting trees

the sentinels literally say the reasons of why they were attacking "these brutes don't respect life" the wisps are not alive, they attack because they were cutting trees.

The Frontier poster was not yet invented in Azeroth and I am sure that all the races of Azeroth that lived in the area knew that these were Kaldorei forests.

it was not? they can invent weapons, armor a bunch of shit with woods but they can't put a signal that this land belong to someone else? they could not even make themselves aware? they could not even shot a arrow of warning say they should come back?

you have to, make yourself invisible, make your presence unaware of the scouts and just murder the invaders? not even uncivilized people or the most reclusive natives do that.

what is this bullshit

Besides, there were literally Kaldorei ghosts in the forest line.

that are not alive and the orcs did nothing to then

There is something you don't understand. The Kaldorei do not defend LIFE. The Kaldorei defend their forests.

there is something you don't understand. The kaldorei are HYPOCRITES, how can you defend your forest if you do not warn outsider to keep outside and even put signals that those forests are YOURS?

And by the way, the Tauren knew that they are Kaldoeri forests because they asked them to pass once and the Kaldoeri said no.

there is no way to know this part of the forest was already something that they had possession, Taurens could just have think that the night elves could be civilized and not just start murdering other people for fun.

those lands are just "night elf lands" because the right of conquest, its not like is their promise land

In the way that they propose to do an extermination of that race. But not of any race of the Horde yes.
If we were already planning to do an extermination of various Horde roots it would make sense.

literally what

Yes, but we have the debate between what Blizzard says and what Blizzard does.
Blizzard says they are not evil. But they act wicked.

it doesn't matter, they are not evil, but blizzard words, is canon, end of the discussion.

- - - Updated - - -

They played along, and fully cooperated, in both the case of Sylvanas and Garrosh.
They only turned against their leaders once they turned on them.

And that ly doesn't matter, since what it coulds is blizzard writing, and they said they aren't.

- - - Updated - - -

I wondered why they would have a Thrall panel at all. It's not like he played a major role in any shape or form since Cata, save his last few appearances in BfA and his little visit in WoD where he offed Garrosh. Well, maybe he stood around a little bit in WoD, and you got his artifact from him in Legion. But story wise ... why would they even dig him out now?

because there is literally nothing from the horde left, their troll leader is dead, tauren leader is shit, they had to bring something that feels Horde for nostalgia and say the horde like we know still there, lorthe'who cannot do that.

Regarding the OP's complaint about the horde being considered all savages: you can't have your cake and it, too. Wanting to cheer for two genociders like Garrosh and Sylvanas but also NOT wanting to be considerd the "monster" faction? Hardly plausible.

i wonder why people think is the same people who want both of those things and not just two different fanbases

[username993720]

And that ly doesn't matter, since what it coulds is blizzard writing, and they said they aren't.

You need someone to tell you if they're evil or not? Can't you judge for yourself?

[Ardenaso]

I wouldn't say they were honorable. They were just looking for a home, at that time.
After they settled in, and got all comfortable, the itch of war started to kick-in.
Besides, back then, they didn't have Forsaken undead, Goblins and Mag'har Orcs among them.

at least terrorizing defenseless civilians was just an outlier from the Forsaken from Classic to Cata; it became the norm in MoP and BFA

- - - Updated - - -

and I hate it; I want the noble savages Warcraft 3 Horde back

[loras]

Good.
There's no need for human orcs, when we have humans. That's just making the races, and the factions, bland.
You, guys, keep forgetting the description for the races, and the factions, just because of a few characters:


"Joined in an alliance of convenience", "ferocious, and sometimes monstrous", "struggles to keep aggression in check".

Orcs - "The orcs can work themselves up into a natural bloodlust frenzy, a capacity that was only demonically amplified by consuming the Blood of Mannoroth." Meaning, they never required the Blood of Mannoroth to be savages, as can be seen by the Warlords of Draenor expansion. To be honest, Garrosh epitomized what it meant to be an Orc Warchief.

Troll - "Other than tribes such as the Darkspear, most trolls will attack outsiders on sight, even trolls of other tribes. The jungle near Booty Bay in the Eastern Kingdoms is infamous for its many aggressive jungle troll inhabitants. The Darkspear tribe practiced cannibalism until they joined forces with the Horde, who forbade the practice". To be fair, Zul'jin is the best example of a troll character.

Tauren - Now, tauren are said to be calm and peaceful. And that is true, to a certain extent. Being based on native americans, they are considered 'savages' in films like Pocahontas. In warfare, i would say, they are immensely brutal. Baine is the worst example of a Tauren. Even in warcraft III, his ass got kidnapped by Centaurs. I would have added some of that alleged 'savagery' of the native americans to the Tauren race. Not just peaceful and serene people but, rather, deadly in combat.

Undead - evil beyond comprehension. This is undisputable. They experimented on caged living beings, deployed plague indiscriminately, and raised creatures into undeath. The Banshee Queen is a great example of a forsaken (before being warchief).

Blood elves - Unlike the High elves, they embraced the overuse and indulgence in arcane magic, to the point of addiction. Now, that the Sunwell is restored, they are no longer power hungry. But, what characterized their addition to the Horde, for an entire expansion was their fel green eyes and their withdrawal symptoms that they shared with the fel corrupted orcs. I think Kael'thas Sunstrider epitomized the Blood elves as a race.

Goblins - Assholes. No doubt about that. They primarily think of monetary gain, before they think of their allies. They are greedy creatures, with a knack for explosives. This can be seen by their starting zone, which shows the use of slaves and the disregard for others' well-being. Gallywix is a prime example of a Goblin.

Pandaren - not gonna even consider them, as they don't really fit the Horde. Heck, their racial leader was brutally beaten by the Warchief. The Zandalari were their enemies, during the Zandalari Wars, and i can't see how they would ally themselves with the evil forsaken, greedy goblins, magic-obsessed elves, voodoo trolls and war-like Orcs that, frankly, resemble Mogu.

In the end, the Horde and its races have always been "evil", sort of speak. And that is not a bad thing, like you all consider it to be. That's actually, a good think. Because if both factions were good and benign, Warcraft would have been boring as hell. That's the diversity part of it, what keeps it interesting. Would the Forsaken be interesting if they were a kind-hearted race? would the Goblins be goblins if they were not greedy pricks? Would orcs be cool if they were compassionate, flower-picking, individuals? i'd bet they wouldn't. That's what the Alliance is for. And they can be bad too, in their own way. By being fanatics. By being Xenophobic. and by being condescending.

This, but with a few additions of the alliance:
I would consider them "colder", killing, maiming and torturing out of conviction rather than hatred. They genuinely believe they are right, whether that is through delusional hypocrisy (Garithos), bureaucratic strictness / politics (King Menethil), "ends justifies the means" desperate machiavellism (Arthas, Illidan) and likely other examples.

So yeah, i would argue that on the surface it is about ratio/ideology (alliance) versus naturalism/passion (horde), and the problems that trying to see and interact with the world only through that lens brings.

- - - Updated - - -

Here's the TL;DR list:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nscript/877992

Some points I'd like to talk about:
Orcs:
Thrall is seen as a "Orc raised as a Human". So far, we were always under the assumption that the Orcs were tricked into the whole demon blood thing. Until Grommash told Thrall they took it voluntarily. One thing that WoD added was that their planet was full of life that tried to kill them. Even the rocks to the very plants were all carnivores. You can imagine what a brutal world that is, so the Orcs are "bloodthirsty" from nature. They were raised in a hostile world.

But then again, does that mean that Orcs can't thrive without conflict? Since Thrall was the only succesfull Orc on building a society that involves Orcs, but also Taurens and Trolls included. Does that mean Orcs are a lesser, dumber race?

Tauren:
Christie Golden said: "Taurens are the moral compass of the Horde". After she chuckled saying that she's not biased clearly. Okay, so Golden really does mean that the Horde is evil in its own. That Orcs, Undead, Trolls, Blood Elves, even Goblins and the Pandaren that joined under Garrosh' rule are all evil and that the Taurens act like their moral compass. Basically saying that the Tauren are what's keeping the Horde together, as they're just a bunch of ragtag goons, who can't stick together. (I'm also going to assume that there are no more Pandaren left but a handful, if what Golden says is true. No Pandaren would want to join a faction where only one race has a "moral compass")

They also stated that Cairne was the most influential friend Thrall had. How? What about Doomhammer and Drek'thar? What about them? Saurfang? Why Cairne? Why couldn't they have left Cairne to be inspirational for his no good son Baine?

Conclusion
I don't think this panel showed much what we didn't know already. They basically retold Thrall's storyline, then gave their own views on it. Views that weren't represented into the game at all. Yet they want the player to believe that what they say is true. Tauren's are supposed to be the moral compass of the Horde, yet all they do in game is be moral cowards. That is if we have to think that Baine represents the entirety of the Taurens, and God do I hope they do not think that.

Because all Baine did was not speak up when Sylvanas was blighting his own soldiers, raising them as skeletons afterwards. He did not speak up against the burning of Teldrassil. He only spoke out when Jaina was about the get hurt. If being a moral compass means running to the Alliance with your tail between your leg like some kind of traitor, then by all means turn the Taurens into bloodthirsty brutes aswell, since that's how Christie Golden sees the Horde.

Does being a moral compass mean that all you do is bow down to the Alliance and report to them whenever shit in your faction hits the fan? Does this mean that the Alliance is the morally good faction?

As for the Orcs, I don't know how you can save this race. It's basically made canon that Orcs are a race that are from a nature point, evil. They're bloodthirsty, without the demon blood. This has been established since WoD, where the Frostwolves are the only clan on "securing that beast within". While the other Orcs glorify their nature. (hence why frostwolves were the good guys)
And as for Thrall being the only reasonable leader that led them, it was all thanks to him being raised by humans.

So we can safely assume Orcs will always have some play as a villian role. Perhaps that the glorification of being brutish barbarians is over, considering the political statement some of the writers have made in the past about adressing toxic masculinity.

I don't think these writers are fit for the world of Warcraft. They have such a hard time depicting what they mean in the story itself, even though they're the ones making it. They come off as arrogant. They do not wish to build upon the lore and pretty much the foundation of what Metzen and other writers created. They instead want to tear it all down to install their own version and even some political statements.

This is just sad.

Also i'm going to have to point out that they basically added nothing new here.

Even way back in vanilla it was clear that only Thrall's orcs were remotely good, what with the blackrock orcs, dragonmaw orcs.

And Cairne did help him run the Horde since the early days, it figures that he's one of the most influential friends Thrall has had in regards to shaping the Horde.
Orgrim was long out if the picture by then, and Drek'thar was already decrepit and blind by then.

[geco]

...

Let's restart this because we went through the bush.
The Post's debate is not about whether the Horde is evil or not. It is About the Writers misunderstanding the Horde and miswriting it.

The Trees conflict in W3 is the perfect conflict. The Kaldorei had their reasons to believe that the Orcs are the bad guys and the Orcs have their reasons to believe that the Kaldorei are the bad guys. That is a Gray conflict. There are no good or bad but a communication error and two too aggressive sides.
No WoW Conflict is like that. 80% of WoW Conflicts the horde knows that they are the bad guys and the other 20% where the Alliance should be the bad guys take you out that in the end they were the good guys for Potato. (Like when Geen attacks Sylvanas for no reason and in the end Sylvanas was doing something bad but no one knew, not even Genn)

The fact that the writings say something and show something else is the basis of all this.
They tell you that the tauren are the Horde's moral compass. But he never really showed you that.
They tell you that Trall is good just because he is "half human". Instead of Honor? Elementals?
They tell you that the Horde is "Honorable". But the last thing the Horde did Honorable was Garrosh.

I mean Sylvanas wasn't like Garrosh. We knew that she was bad from the beginning and they had no motive. Garrosh fought because we were starving.
Why do they force us to spend an entire expansion fighting a war that we are going to lose because we are the bad guys?
Why are we rebelling for Jaina's brother and not why did we break our honor?
Why is Anduin the one who has to tell us what to do 3 times. Why not follow our own ideals?

Personally I think they went too far with Theramore and Teldrassil of course. Not only from an Alliance point of view but they maneuvered the Horde into an awkward corner. There's nowhere to go from there, really. Forever branded as the genociders. This is not what I would call morally grey.

Theramore was good. They clarify that he lets civilians escape and that they bomb only against soldiers.
Besides that they had reasons to want to destroy the city.
It was something "gray".

[Flurryfang]

Let's restart this because we went through the bush.
The Post's debate is not about whether the Horde is evil or not. It is About the Writers misunderstanding the Horde and miswriting it.

The Trees conflict in W3 is the perfect conflict. The Kaldorei had their reasons to believe that the Orcs are the bad guys and the Orcs have their reasons to believe that the Kaldorei are the bad guys. That is a Gray conflict. There are no good or bad but a communication error and two too aggressive sides.
No WoW Conflict is like that. 80% of WoW Conflicts the horde knows that they are the bad guys and the other 20% where the Alliance should be the bad guys take you out that in the end they were the good guys for Potato. (Like when Geen attacks Sylvanas for no reason and in the end Sylvanas was doing something bad but no one knew, not even Genn)

The fact that the writings say something and show something else is the basis of all this.
They tell you that the tauren are the Horde's moral compass. But he never really showed you that.
They tell you that Trall is good just because he is "half human". Instead of Honor? Elementals?
They tell you that the Horde is "Honorable". But the last thing the Horde did Honorable was Garrosh.

I mean Sylvanas wasn't like Garrosh. We knew that she was bad from the beginning and they had no motive. Garrosh fought because we were starving.
Why do they force us to spend an entire expansion fighting a war that we are going to lose because we are the bad guys?
Why are we rebelling for Jaina's brother and not why did we break our honor?
Why is Anduin the one who has to tell us what to do 3 times. Why not follow our own ideals?

I think you got it on point.

The problem is that Blizzard clearly has failed at telling an in-game story, where the Horde does not end up as the bad guys all the time.

Themes are important for telling stories and setting up cultures, yet Blizzard have used very little time on this. Instead of showing culture through changes in the factions, they have shown it through leaders in the Horde. First Thrall, peaceful guy, then Garrosh, WAR!, then Voljin, peaceful, and then Sylvanas, WAR!. The horde in meanwhile have stayed the same, with only a small change with Garrosh. Even now with Baine as the leader of the Horde, we still see no change happening inside the Horde, still no sign of what makes them different from the evil deeds of Sylvanas.

It all comes down to the way, that Blizzard tells stories. Its so character focused, that the world itself, does not really change that much.

[Eggroll]

Theramore was good. They clarify that he lets civilians escape and that they bomb only against soldiers.
Besides that they had reasons to want to destroy the city.
It was something "gray".

When and where did they clarify that they let the civilians escape? What "reasons"? I can make a "reason" out of anything. That doesn't make it good.

I think the OP should stop whining. Since Cata, Alliance has been losing on all fronts, despite the devs saying otherwise.

The Alliance lost Hillsbrad Foothills, Azhara, Ashenvale and Darkshore devastated, Teldrassil destoyed, citizens murdered, Theramore destoyed, Night elves in particular are the devs punching bags since Cata with the Park in Stormwind, that's been a big ol' crater until Legion, Darkshore's first hit with the Cataclysm, Cenarion Hold destoyed by Sargeras, Nightelves bombed in Stonetalon. Additionaly the Alliance lost important lore characters to the Horde, too. Sira Moonwarden, Calia Menethil, Derek Proudmoore.

Horde has gained or just destroyed Alliance territory since forever. What has the Alliance actually gained or won territory wise really?
Nothing comes to mind at the spur of the moment.

Well OP, there's a price for being the winning faction. Suck it up.

[geco]

....
It all comes down to the way, that Blizzard tells stories. Its so character focused, that the world itself, does not really change that much.

Not bad that they focus on NPC instead of the entire race. But the problem is that they focus on only one character at a time.

If for example BFA were all the NPCs saying that this is bullshit. That Teldrazzil is unattainable (or whatever event it is). Which is an insult to Honor.

But instead we have a huge group of NPCs who did not care about everything and were only affected by the fact that Baien being a traitor is prosecuted as Traitor.
So the rebellion is because they punish a traitor.

And besides that it seems that this NPC in the end does not represent anything of the entire race. That is wrong.

When and where did they clarify that they let the civilians escape? What "reasons"? I can make a "reason" out of anything. That doesn't make it good.

I think the OP should stop whining. Since Cata, Alliance has been losing on all fronts, despite the devs saying otherwise.

The Alliance lost Hillsbrad Foothills, Azhara, Ashenvale and Darkshore devastated, Teldrassil destoyed, citizens murdered, Theramore destoyed, Night elves in particular are the devs punching bags since Cata with the Park in Stormwind, that's been a big ol' crater until Legion, Darkshore's first hit with the Cataclysm, Cenarion Hold destoyed by Sargeras, Nightelves bombed in Stonetalon. Additionaly the Alliance lost important lore characters to the Horde, too. Sira Moonwarden, Calia Menethil, Derek Proudmoore.

Horde has gained or just destroyed Alliance territory since forever. What has the Alliance actually gained or won territory wise really?
Nothing comes to mind at the spur of the moment.

Well OP, there's a price for being the winning faction. Suck it up.

They are supposed to silence him in the novel.
Well the "Victories alianz" are like the "Honor of the Horde". They tell you but they never show you.
To the Sumo it is like in thorns wars that tell you about a victory that was off camera and in Cata and that they hung the orcs from the trees. Which would be to be shown in the game.

[Keristrasza]

Too many cooks. And not a single good one :P

You're right, the majority of the player base needs to learn how to be a real "Chef" before they start critiquing others in their own line of work. ;P

Too many back seat drivers, IMO. People need to chill, sit back and enjoy the ride or get out and walk.

[username993720]

at least terrorizing defenseless civilians was just an outlier from the Forsaken from Classic to Cata; it became the norm in MoP and BFA

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and I hate it; I want the noble savages Warcraft 3 Horde back

Those would be the Frostwolf Orcs (suppressing their rage, unlike other Orcs), Darkspear Trolls (not attacking on sight and abandoning cannibalism) and the Bloodhoof Tauren.
Can't say that on the Forsaken undead, the Bilgewater Goblins, the other Orc clans and the other Troll tribes.
Meanwhile, Blood elves were never savages and i don't know what Pandaren are doing in the Horde, in the first place.

This, but with a few additions of the alliance:
I would consider them "colder", killing, maiming and torturing out of conviction rather than hatred. They genuinely believe they are right, whether that is through delusional hypocrisy (Garithos), bureaucratic strictness / politics (King Menethil), "ends justifies the means" desperate machiavellism (Arthas, Illidan) and likely other examples.

So yeah, i would argue that on the surface it is about ratio/ideology (alliance) versus naturalism/passion (horde), and the problems that trying to see and interact with the world only through that lens brings.

What you described is, pretty much, the Tushui and Huojin:
"The way of the Tushui is one of a principled life. Followers of this discipline believe there is a moral certainty to the world: one correct path of right and wrong.

These Values are immutable, and must be preserved no matter what the cost. Even if it means self sacrifice, or painful losses in the pursuit of a higher ideal."

"The Path of the Huojin is marked by practical and decisive action. Followers of this discipline believe that morals and ideals are not absolute but change with circumstances.

As such, a Huojin Master must remain flexible in his or her thinking, always evaluating the greater good."