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  1. #41

  2. #42
    Legendary! Vetali's Avatar
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    yep welp the Russell Wilson era was fun while it lasted.

  3. #43
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    Houston managed to rework David Johnson's contract, would've been hilarious for him to be a cap casualty just a year after they traded Hopkins for him.
    /s

  4. #44
    Mind if I roll need? xskarma's Avatar
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    As a tangent to the Russel Wilson situation and the rumor that some coveted scouts left NE over the past couple of years because they felt they didn't have enough of a voice in the process.

    Let's say you are successful in the NFL, and you run the show. At what point does the scale tip from "this person's ideas and convictions brought us much success and we should therefor follow their direction" to "This person is only doing what they think is right and don't allow anyone to second guess their direction and this is bad."

    Is it really just "what have you done for me lately" and as soon as the success stops coming easy things need to change?

    Not taking a side here cause I'm honestly conflicted myself.

    Pete Carrol and Bill Belichick have done great things, but suddenly there's this air of "they need to listen to other influences", mostly because of their respective QB's wanting out (or already going elsewhere).

    Seahawks and Patriots both are going through a juggling act of trying to stay relevant while rebuilding and I can't help but find it suspicious that right at that time when they are obviously re-tooling that questions arise.

    On the other hand, there IS clear signs that both men running things according to theri convictions has left their teams in a rebuild, even after much success was had, and that the rebuilds have had definite rocky stretches.

    So, at what point do you feel a coach that's been successful needs to bring in outside voices and listen to calls to change their methods and when should you just trust in the quality of the guy you have and let them run things according to their insights and convictions?


    And this is not just a Seahawks/Patriots discussion. Andy Reid is going to start facign these questions too, and soon. John Harbaugh already went through them in Baltimore, and managed to get through the period and find success again on the other side (though notably, his path was to choose to strike a very different direction with his team then he had done before). I'm sure Sean Payton can be argued has gone through this same story after the 2009 win and the low years and then the post 2016 rise again and is about to go through it again with Brees retiring and his team in cap hell.

    So, where do you side in this? Should teams just let their franchise people plot their own course or should teams that hit the skids in some form start seriously thinking about pulling the eject lever?

  5. #45
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Apparently Bills were the closest other contenders, but at 31m, 2 years, and 23m guaranteed, I'm more than willing to pass on that.

    I was hoping he'd sign something around the 12-13m mark to play for a contender. I don't think the Cardinals are even winning their division next year.

    At one point Watt said his priorities were: 1) a young, good QB, 2) SB contenders, 3) money. The Bills are better on 1 and 2 (maybe you can argue Kyler vs. Allen is a push, I don't think so personally), so I have to think 3 is the reason. Unless you want to argue the convoluted "the NFC is more wide open than the AFC" thing.
    Yeah you can't look at the Cardinals and 31 million and not see that 1 and 2 were lies and he was all in on the money.

    Which is fine, it keeps him from beating the rest of us in the playoffs.
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  6. #46
    The Lightbringer ProphetFlume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Yeah you can't look at the Cardinals and 31 million and not see that 1 and 2 were lies and he was all in on the money.

    Which is fine, it keeps him from beating the rest of us in the playoffs.
    There was an article saying 2 other teams offered more $ but I didn’t read it
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    I just like reading about the "vigorous rubbing" that might affect ball inflation.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    As a tangent to the Russel Wilson situation and the rumor that some coveted scouts left NE over the past couple of years because they felt they didn't have enough of a voice in the process.

    Let's say you are successful in the NFL, and you run the show. At what point does the scale tip from "this person's ideas and convictions brought us much success and we should therefor follow their direction" to "This person is only doing what they think is right and don't allow anyone to second guess their direction and this is bad."

    Is it really just "what have you done for me lately" and as soon as the success stops coming easy things need to change?

    Not taking a side here cause I'm honestly conflicted myself.

    Pete Carrol and Bill Belichick have done great things, but suddenly there's this air of "they need to listen to other influences", mostly because of their respective QB's wanting out (or already going elsewhere).

    Seahawks and Patriots both are going through a juggling act of trying to stay relevant while rebuilding and I can't help but find it suspicious that right at that time when they are obviously re-tooling that questions arise.

    On the other hand, there IS clear signs that both men running things according to theri convictions has left their teams in a rebuild, even after much success was had, and that the rebuilds have had definite rocky stretches.

    So, at what point do you feel a coach that's been successful needs to bring in outside voices and listen to calls to change their methods and when should you just trust in the quality of the guy you have and let them run things according to their insights and convictions?


    And this is not just a Seahawks/Patriots discussion. Andy Reid is going to start facign these questions too, and soon. John Harbaugh already went through them in Baltimore, and managed to get through the period and find success again on the other side (though notably, his path was to choose to strike a very different direction with his team then he had done before). I'm sure Sean Payton can be argued has gone through this same story after the 2009 win and the low years and then the post 2016 rise again and is about to go through it again with Brees retiring and his team in cap hell.

    So, where do you side in this? Should teams just let their franchise people plot their own course or should teams that hit the skids in some form start seriously thinking about pulling the eject lever?
    I think that a coach who has a long track record of consistent success deserves the benefit of a doubt and a bit more leeway when it comes to a rebuild. If you've consistently had your team in a position to be a contender for the better part of your career, you should be allowed a few seasons of a rebuild before you're on the hot seat. I think it's absolutely absurd that everyone is writing off Bill and is convinced that Brady is solely responsible for the Pats success of the last two decades, especially after one losing season.

    A coach with a track record like BB, Carrol, Reid, etc, get multiple years to rebuild because they've shown they have the ability to put together a winning team. Their seat shouldn't even really be warm until the 3rd year of a rebuild at least, especially if you're replacing so many key pieces like they all will be. However, coaches who have yet to really prove themselves (this includes both the Zimmers who are stuck in alternating boom-bust cycles, and the Schottenheimers who can't ever seem to get over that last hump to a championship) don't have as much leeway because they haven't proven their way works beyond a season here and there.

    The reality of the NFL is that it's really hard to have more than a handful of teams that are consistently good season after season. This is especially true if you want that consistency to span more than 5-10 years. When you find a coach who is able to do that for an extended period of time, even if it means you have to go through a rebuild every so often, you're far more hesitant to part with them because of how easy it is to find yourself with either a boom-bust coach or, even worse, a coaching carousel where you have to clean house every 3 or 4 years. So a coach who has proven themselves capable of winning season after season gets more chances when they hit a down-turn.

    However, it is important that you don't let that track record blind you to when things just aren't turning around. Just because they get more leeway doesn't mean you pull a Jerry Jones and keep your coach around long after they've shown they can't turn things around. If a coach hasn't been able to rebuild after 4 seasons, there's zero reason to think they'll suddenly turn it around in year 5 no matter how successful they've been in the past.

  8. #48
    Legendary! Vetali's Avatar
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    Personally, I would much rather have a successful coach than a successful QB. Wilson essentially shut down late last season. He'd go 3 and out or try to play hero ball like he did in 2012, get sacked, go to the bench with his coat on and not talk to anyone. Meanwhile the defense is out there keeping the wheels from really falling off of last season. Lots of people are saying the reason why Wilson is upset is because Pete forced Schotty out. I don't agree. You never saw Wilson on the phone after Schotty went to this booth this year. Maybe they had an assistant relaying information, but that seems unnecessary. I think the rift is purely that Wilson thinks he needs an elite o line to play his style of football, and Pete wants Wilson to stop hanging onto the ball for a league high amount of time. Pete thinks of his QBs as point guards. There is a 2011 quote from him back when Hasselbeck was on his way out. He doesn't think he needs an elite QB to win.

    Honestly, I can see the big issue being that Wilson avoids confrontation too much and doesn't want to sit down with Pete and talk things out. Rather work through his agent. This is apparent to me because of what DK said about how Wilson would meet with WRs under the table and hold his own meetings about the offense. I just don't see Pete being some unhinged guy because theres essentially no ownership overhead. There wasn't when Paul Allen was alive either. Pete had free reign. Majority of other players love him. Its a select few that don't.

    I really think things could be worked out, but I don't think they will and we will see a Watson like situation unfold.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    -snip-
    At some point, I think it's ego, and the lack of building up those under you. People want to be successful, but they want to be the driving force of their success in their own lives. It's literally the "living in the shadows" of those you studied under.

    If I was a successful assistant in the league, I would have been totally put off by the Josh McDaniels/Colts fiasco. Bill is obviously the GOAT, but it seemed clear he pushed him to stay in NE and break that contract and just be someone to wrangle Tom, and didn't care about Josh's ability to be his own good coach. And we've seen the fruit wither on the Bellicheck coaching tree once it falls off. For the GOAT, he has remarkably unsuccessful proteges. A great coach doesn't necessarily have to be a great teacher of younger coaches, but I imagine that's what those who work for him want.

    And that's precisely why I don't think Reid is going to get those questions. All his former assistants seem to love him (including Sean McDermott), and his tree has had some success...because he supported them.

  10. #50
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Interesting rule change proposal out of Buffalo. They want to artificially slow down the hiring process for Coaches and GMs, making it so you cannot start conducting interviews until after the Conference Championships and cannot hire until after the Super Bowl.

    You can connect the dots to a few coordinators that they probably think were screwed out of jobs by deep playoff runs this season.
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  11. #51
    Legendary! Logwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Interesting rule change proposal out of Buffalo. They want to artificially slow down the hiring process for Coaches and GMs, making it so you cannot start conducting interviews until after the Conference Championships and cannot hire until after the Super Bowl.

    You can connect the dots to a few coordinators that they probably think were screwed out of jobs by deep playoff runs this season.
    I kinda thought this is the way it should be. Worry about what is right in front of you first then worry about next season.
    I feel like its human nature to go interview and then get an offer then start worrying more about your next gig instead of winning the playoffs of the superbowl.

    Then again I'm still jaded about the Shannahan and lost playbook and losing that certain Super Bowl.

  12. #52
    Before anyone gets TOO excited about Cardinals’ 8-8 season, here’s a sobering fact:

    5-0 against Jets + NFC East. 3-8 against everyone else.

  13. #53
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    I kinda thought this is the way it should be. Worry about what is right in front of you first then worry about next season.
    I feel like its human nature to go interview and then get an offer then start worrying more about your next gig instead of winning the playoffs of the superbowl.

    Then again I'm still jaded about the Shannahan and lost playbook and losing that certain Super Bowl.
    The counter-argument to that would be teams like, well, Dallas, Carolina, and Washington last year (and Jacksonville this year) who all knew right away who their guy was and essentially their entire search was a farce anyway. "Why not let them hire their guy and get it out of the way?"

    It's the same argument that comes up whenever someone wants to oppose stuff like the Rooney Rule.

    Honestly I think it's a change that should be made purely from an "improve the quality of the candidates" standpoint. We can say pretty definitively each offseason there's that one hotshot coordinator that's topping everyone's list who mysteriously doesn't land a job. And it's usually (unless said hotshot's name is Bienemy) because their team was in the playoffs for so long that someone started the hiring avalanche and suddenly teams felt they couldn't wait anymore.






    Also in stupider rules proposed, some team proposed making it so a field goal in OT is an automatic win again. You know, to screw over Aaron Rodgers even more than OT always seems to. At that point why not just flip a coin and declare a winner that way?
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  14. #54
    It never made sense for teams to be able to start hiring as soon as the regular season ends, especially with 2 more teams in the playoffs now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Before anyone gets TOO excited about Cardinals’ 8-8 season, here’s a sobering fact:

    5-0 against Jets + NFC East. 3-8 against everyone else.
    You can look at their defensive coordinator as well.

  15. #55
    Legendary! Vetali's Avatar
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    I would be for the coaching rule change, and the NFL probably would be too in order to keep news flowing post SB and pre FA. Really though, it'd just be the same thing with players where we already have a queue of trades and releases/signings waiting for FA to start

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    The counter-argument to that would be teams like, well, Dallas, Carolina, and Washington last year (and Jacksonville this year) who all knew right away who their guy was and essentially their entire search was a farce anyway. "Why not let them hire their guy and get it out of the way?"
    I think the proposed rule is you can't interview coordinators still in the playoffs. If the Jags know they want to hire Urban Meyer, they can. Or any other coordinator not in the playoffs still.

    I think the proposed rule is to actually keep coordinators in their own heads for the playoffs and not thinking about their next gig, not necessarily giving them better opportunities for HC jobs.

    Does anyone have text of the proposed rule change?

  17. #57
    Legendary! Logwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    The counter-argument to that would be teams like, well, Dallas, Carolina, and Washington last year (and Jacksonville this year) who all knew right away who their guy was and essentially their entire search was a farce anyway. "Why not let them hire their guy and get it out of the way?"

    It's the same argument that comes up whenever someone wants to oppose stuff like the Rooney Rule.

    Honestly I think it's a change that should be made purely from an "improve the quality of the candidates" standpoint. We can say pretty definitively each offseason there's that one hotshot coordinator that's topping everyone's list who mysteriously doesn't land a job. And it's usually (unless said hotshot's name is Bienemy) because their team was in the playoffs for so long that someone started the hiring avalanche and suddenly teams felt they couldn't wait anymore.






    Also in stupider rules proposed, some team proposed making it so a field goal in OT is an automatic win again. You know, to screw over Aaron Rodgers even more than OT always seems to. At that point why not just flip a coin and declare a winner that way?
    If you really know who you want why does it matter if you interview them today or after the playoffs? They're still your guy.

    I wish we could discuss the Rooney Rule but it falls into the realm of discussions about race which is a no-no

    I think the NFL should either nix OT in the regular season altogether and you get the kiss your sister tie. Or adopt the College OT method.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Interesting rule change proposal out of Buffalo. They want to artificially slow down the hiring process for Coaches and GMs, making it so you cannot start conducting interviews until after the Conference Championships and cannot hire until after the Super Bowl.

    You can connect the dots to a few coordinators that they probably think were screwed out of jobs by deep playoff runs this season.
    I think this would be a good change. Teams requesting and giving interviews from coordinators still in the playoffs is tampering.
    Bandwagon sports fans can eat a bag of http://www.ddir.com/ .

  19. #59
    Mind if I roll need? xskarma's Avatar
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    Ravens making an interesting proposal for Overtime in the NFL: https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ime-procedure/

    I have no problem with the current way it works, but this proposal does seem to make it fairer to both teams.

  20. #60
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    I don't think it needs to be that complicated. Just play a ten minute quarter, and whoever is ahead by then wins, or it's a tie.

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