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  1. #181
    I don't see the point in denying the reliance on plot contrivances when it comes to more recent story developments.

    To introduce a brand-new even greater, more primordial power than the ones we've seen for decades now at this point in the story (where we're basically fresh out of primordial powers) can't be described as anything but contrived. Any attempt to justify this on grounds of "the Titans weren't teased all the way back in WC1 so it's the same thing" or similar hogwash is not only uncompelling but also misguided.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Exactly. It's Ner'zhul who chose Arthas as his champion so he could use him as a tool to rebel against the Legion. It's Ner'zhul who whispered to Arthas and the rest of the Scourge. Wc3 was clear on the fact that dk Arthas was under his mind control.
    Yup, in Chronicle 3, pages 51-53 shows that Ner'zhul allowed Arthas to maintain some control until he defeated Mal'ganis, then after he stripped him of all his humanity and had him under his control from there on.

    Also with using Arthas to rebel, one thing I really did enjoy learning was that Arthas doesn't just teleport to Kalimdor help Illidan and then leave, he goes with the Legion invasion force and the entire time he's there, he's sabotaging the Legion's efforts by making the undead disobey them and run amok, slowing their advance and giving defenders chances to escape.

    Ner'zhul basically saved Azeroth with the biggest middle finger to Kil'jaeden and KJ was so worried about what this meant that he was willing to forgive Illidan to put a stop to this threat the Legion.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I don't see the point in denying the reliance on plot contrivances when it comes to more recent story developments.

    To introduce a brand-new even greater, more primordial power than the ones we've seen for decades now at this point in the story (where we're basically fresh out of primordial powers) can't be described as anything but contrived. Any attempt to justify this on grounds of "the Titans weren't teased all the way back in WC1 so it's the same thing" or similar hogwash is not only uncompelling but also misguided.
    actual facts right here

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Yup, in Chronicle 3, pages 51-53 shows that Ner'zhul allowed Arthas to maintain some control until he defeated Mal'ganis, then after he stripped him of all his humanity and had him under his control from there on.

    Also with using Arthas to rebel, one thing I really did enjoy learning was that Arthas doesn't just teleport to Kalimdor help Illidan and then leave, he goes with the Legion invasion force and the entire time he's there, he's sabotaging the Legion's efforts by making the undead disobey them and run amok, slowing their advance and giving defenders chances to escape.

    Ner'zhul basically saved Azeroth with the biggest middle finger to Kil'jaeden and KJ was so worried about what this meant that he was willing to forgive Illidan to put a stop to this threat the Legion.
    yeah ner'zhul was pretty boss. until mind-controlled arthas (who was aware that ner'zhul controlled him and 100% cool with it) was suddenly willing and able to rebel and erase him
    good storytelling right here
    Last edited by Houle; 2021-02-25 at 01:23 AM.
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  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by TigTone View Post
    Just cause Blizz did not build them up before shadowlands does not mean it is an ass pull.
    Let me tell you what

    Blizzard ever just introducing something and saying they've been here the whole time... is 99% always an asspull.

    When Blizzard first started to even touch upon the universe, we knew of the Titan's. We've known of the Titan's way before we actually met them, way before characters in the lore learned about them. They have always been a huge part of the backstory of the universe.

    Now the First Ones are introduced, not only of the Shadowlands but supposedly creating the entire universe including the light and void. That's a really big thing to learn about after we've already known of all these areas for a long time without ever a mention of them. We're not even learning of them before the lore characters learn of them. We've always known of things before characters in the lore have.

  5. #185
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Yeah, but now think in next expansion there will someone before the First Ones. How crazy is that? I mean, this will never end! I don't mind the First Ones. I does make sense now even though it was confusing at first. Still for me Titans were always first and probably will be.
    Imo the First ones addition is good as long as Blizzard gives them the Elune treatment forever.

    As a force in the back ground forever a mystery to mortals with just little bits of mythos to fill in the blanks of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Let me tell you what

    Blizzard ever just introducing something and saying they've been here the whole time... is 99% always an asspull.

    When Blizzard first started to even touch upon the universe, we knew of the Titan's. We've known of the Titan's way before we actually met them, way before characters in the lore learned about them. They have always been a huge part of the backstory of the universe.

    Now the First Ones are introduced, not only of the Shadowlands but supposedly creating the entire universe including the light and void. That's a really big thing to learn about after we've already known of all these areas for a long time without ever a mention of them. We're not even learning of them before the lore characters learn of them. We've always known of things before characters in the lore have.
    I’ll admit I was a bit disappointed when they stated they also created the light and void.

    I like them more with the idea as creators of shadowlands and possibly as some of the shapers of the universe our characters live in.

  6. #186
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    actual facts right here
    No not really, its the same way Titans became a thing, the person you quoted is just trying to jump through hoops to justify his reasoning of calling it "Contrived."
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  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    yeah ner'zhul was pretty boss. until mind-controlled arthas (who was aware that ner'zhul controlled him and 100% cool with it) was suddenly able to rebel and erase him
    Well not sure if he was 100% cool with it. If you've read the Arthas book, the thought that he is a pawn or controlled doesn't sit well with him. Especially right before he merges with the Lich King, he has so many doubts and was worried that he was going to be erased and such.

    Chronicles 3 points this out again, that Ner'zhul was aware of the doubts Arthas had, but felt like he could overcome them once merged. What he didn't know was the moment the shackles were off Arthas and this "domination" effect on him wasn't there anymore, Evil Arthas took control with such cruelty and tortured the shit out of Ner'zhul.
    So before the control was lost, this shade(Danuser is dumb) of Arthas was in a way "charmed" to serve the Lich King, almost like he wanted to. This is basically the same effect that Anuberak or Sindragosa is under, until the moment of their death where they reveal that they weren't willing after all. Or even better yet the DK's who think of the Lich King as their great master until they learn he sent them to die, which just the realization of that was enough to break them of his control or... charm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigTone View Post
    Imo the First ones addition is good as long as Blizzard gives them the Elune treatment forever.

    As a force in the back ground forever a mystery to mortals with just little bits of mythos to fill in the blanks of them.

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    I’ll admit I was a bit disappointed when they stated they also created the light and void.

    I like them more with the idea as creators of shadowlands and possibly as some of the shapers of the universe our characters live in.
    Yeah I honestly liked the idea that there was just Light and the Shadow was born from it(Light creates Shadow) and where it met, created the universe and at the edges where it was most chaotic, fel was born and so on.

    Now we're learning that some Beyonders, some giant scientists in labcoats created everything? It's almost like reusing the Titan's came to Azeroth, set order to it and disappeared and everything fell apart, but now on a grander scale of all existence. The great mystery of why the Titan's disappeared is solved, now to reuse it again for the First Ones(inb4 it's literally Zovaal betrayed them like Sargeras did the Titan's)

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    No not really, its the same way Titans became a thing, the person you quoted is just trying to jump through hoops to justify his reasoning of calling it "Contrived."
    its the TIMING. titans became a thing wayyy back. now, the lore has evolved way beyond that. introducing things like the first ones now is just bad. its the equivalent of introducing palpatine out of the blue in ROTJ, without his appereance in ESB or mention in ANH.
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  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Titans had buildup, First Ones didn't. What's so hard to understand, my "questionable" dude?
    First Ones do have build-up. Or do you currently know anything more than "they exist and build some stuff" about them, things that our characters only just learned about?

    Titans were introduced in the same way. You're just being inconsistent in applying your own standards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    its the TIMING. titans became a thing wayyy back. now, the lore has evolved way beyond that. introducing things like the first ones now is just bad. its the equivalent of introducing palpatine out of the blue in ROTJ, without his appereance in ESB or mention in ANH.
    No, it's not. You're just randomly acting like they can't introduce new things now for no particular reason.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The lore is that of a 12 year old child. Ignore it.
    Almost none of this info can be found in game or in a book. It's non-canon anyways. Clearly, as Danuser has shown many times that he does not proof read nor does he do his research on ongoing plots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    So why not ignore the thread?
    Because it's worth discussing that this "info dump" is just that, a dump expelled from a 12 year old. Fuck, 12 year olds can write better compelling stories than this.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Because it's worth discussing that this "info dump" is just that, a dump expelled from a 12 year old. Fuck, 12 year olds can write better compelling stories than this.
    The person I replied to is not trying to have a discussion. He came to this thread to try and stop discussion because he doesn't like the lore. "Ignore it" is not constructive.
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    Alleria's whispers start climaxing

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Who do you think you are? Who gives you the right to tell people what to do? I'll speculate as many times I want, thank you very much.

    You don't know who the Void Lords are, nor what their full connection to the First Ones is.
    We do tho? They rule over the Void. They are part of the Cosmic Pantheons. Also, I am allowed to debunk a theory if it's baseless or just plain wrong. They are connected to the First Ones in that they exist as Lords of the Void, similar to how the Pantheon of Death are the Lords of Death, the Titan Pantheon are the Lords of Order, etc. They rule over these cosmologies to keep them in balance, to keep the cosmic machine the First Ones SUPPOSEDLY created in check.

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    It's why the Arbiter exists, or why Aman'Thul came to be in order to create the idea of the Titan Pantheon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    its the TIMING. titans became a thing wayyy back. now, the lore has evolved way beyond that. introducing things like the first ones now is just bad. its the equivalent of introducing palpatine out of the blue in ROTJ, without his appereance in ESB or mention in ANH.
    Why is introducing the First Ones now "bad"? They exist as cosmic entities Mortals and demi-godlike beings have absolutely no knowledge of, since they're so above anything we've ever seen before. And since it's implied they shaped everything, or at the very least set up the framework of the Cosmos (AKA them making the Big Bang, the Cosmic Powers, the laws, etc. Especially since Framework means "a basic structure underlying a system, concept, or text." which is exactly what the Cosmic Chart is), I wouldn't be shocked if the Aspects had any knowledge of them, nor would I be shocked if the Titans did not care to say anything about them to us, because they're still so out of our reach.

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    If you guys wanna know what a Framework looks like, it's essentially this:



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    Wanna know what's also a framework?

    The Warcraft Cosmic Chart!

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    The Warcraft Cosmic Chart serves as the framework of the entire verse! Light and Shadow are the 2 fundamental forces that clashed and shaped everything, Order and Disorder serve to govern the cosmos, and Life and Death serve to hold sway of all physical beings within the Cosmos. And Blizzard stated that the First Ones architected the framework of the Cosmos, and also serve as the level beyond the Titan Pantheon. They're also stated to be the progenitors of the Cosmos, as well as the Shadowlands.

    Them being above the Cosmic Chart, as well as the guys that made Light and Void is entirely possible. And it's also why mortals have absolutely no idea who tf they actually are.

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    If anything, the Chronicle is still RIGHT in that it talks about the Cosmic powers and their purpose within the Cosmos (Light and Void clashed, made everything VIA combinations of their magics, and then came the other Cosmic Powers), but it is also an unreliable narrator, since it's still slightly limited due to it being based on the view of the Titans. We're EXPANDING on this framework in SL, we're expanding on what the Chronicle established. There is no "retcon". There is nothing here that contradicts the Chronicle. If anything, we're learning that there's a power that potentially caused the Warcraft Big Bang, as well as caused the existence of the Cosmic Chart. AND, on top of that, we're exploring more of the Cosmic Powers these next couple of years in WoW.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    If anything, the Chronicle is still RIGHT in that it talks about the Cosmic powers and their purpose within the Cosmos (Light and Void clashed, made everything VIA combinations of their magics, and then came the other Cosmic Powers), but it is also an unreliable narrator, since it's still slightly limited due to it being based on the view of the Titans.
    If you think about it, that would actually suggest that the Titans don't know about them. Though i wouldn't say unreliable narrator. More limited narrator. What it knows is accurate, but it isn't omniscient.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    If you think about it, that would actually suggest that the Titans don't know about them. Though i wouldn't say unreliable narrator. More limited narrator. What it knows is accurate, but it isn't omniscient.
    Yeah, I guess that's moreso the case. The Titans probably don't know about them, you're right. The Pantheon of Death apparently have limited knowledge about them, but that's it really. The Broker's only know about them cause they've travelled across the ENTIRE cosmos, searching for relics and shit like that. Hell, the Jailer doesn't even know much about them, and he's basically the reason the cosmic powers are at war with each-other, to begin with. Not to mention the fact that he's extracted how many secrets again?

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    God, I'm gonna feel so fucking dumb if what I say is wrong, and the First Ones actually did show up after the Big Bang...

  15. #195
    Honestly, I won't mind the First Ones too much if they really make them feel truly alien. The idea of them just being Titans^2 is a little underwhelming and contrived, but if they are sincerely entities beyond comprehension to the extent of feeling more like eldritch horrors than common deities would be interesting.

    Something like


  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Honestly, I won't mind the First Ones too much if they really make them feel truly alien. The idea of them just being Titans^2 is a little underwhelming and contrived, but if they are sincerely entities beyond comprehension to the extent of feeling more like eldritch horrors than common deities would be interesting.

    Something like

    That image can actually apply to the Titans, more than the First Ones tbh. The First Ones are way beyond even something like that.

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    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.red...e_seat_of_the/

    And this with Sargeras

  17. #197
    More then likely Elune will be revealed to be one of the First Ones, maybe their last survivor after they have been wiped out somehow by a jealous Zovaal.

    Frankly it all makes sense. In Legion Xe'ra spoke of the Great Ordering of the Cosmos. This requires someone to do the Ordering. Maybe the First Ones did not create Light and Void, but they installed them in their opposing places and then designed the Cosmic Chart as we know it, a balance between all Forces to keep the Universe from unreveling.

    Obviously people will go crazy about this, calling it a retcon, asspull whatever. But it's not. It is just an expansion of the lore that we did not know about before. Every time this happens people loose their minds instead of just accepting that the world of warcraft is constantly expanding, it is not stuck in WC3 nor should it.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    No not really, its the same way Titans became a thing, the person you quoted is just trying to jump through hoops to justify his reasoning of calling it "Contrived."
    Looks like you didn't really want to understand the argument.

    The Titans were introduced to the lore at a point in time (2003) where we knew close to nothing about the Warcraft universe. It made sense to plant the seeds for things like Titans at the start because if you're going to have really powerful beings that shaped pretty much everything in the universe, you'd expect to find things that point to their existence.

    The point isn't that adding something is inherently contrived (after all you have to start somewhere). The point is that adding a new primordial power when you've just demystified or killed all of the previous primordial/mythical powers (Sargeras, Titans in general, Demons, Old Gods etc.) is what makes it contrived. The First Ones weren't in the story until they were needed because as it turns out we're pretty much out of cosmic entities (except the Void Lords and whatever monstrosity they're going to turn Elune into).

    The same thing could be said about the Jailer and pretty much all of the nu-Shadowlands. We've known about the Shadowlands for years now but we only find out there's a pantheon of death, covenants and that basically everything in the universe has been manipulated by this guy we've never even heard of the moment we step into the expansion. With other expansions we roughly knew what to expect because it was teased in some way or another. Hell, even the existence of Pandaria was teased all the way back in WC3 and Pandaria wasn't the be-all and end-all of Warcraft lore like Shadowlands is. That's the difference.

    The more extraordinary/significant a reveal is, the bigger its build-up must be in order for it to work. With Shadowlands they went for the exact opposite route. They had no prior build-up and instead tried to leech off of already established things people are familiar with. The Scourge? Maldraxxus did that. The Lich King? The Jailer did that. Frostmourne? The Runecarver made that. Sargeras corruption by demons and everything resulting from that? Also the Jailer's plan.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2021-02-25 at 11:43 AM.

  19. #199
    What i'm most looking forward to in this patch is the Dreadlords involvement, revealed by the Starting Zone interview:
    "The dreadlords will be returning in this patch and we will learn more about them."

    This could, potentially, introduce us to pre-fel corrupted Dreadlords, as has been hinted by the "Enemy Infiltration - Preface" book:
    "And as previously discussed, our position within the plane of Disorder is proceeding flawlessly. Consuming fel energy is not a pleasant process, but a necessary one."

    And by the Mists of Pandaria's Codex Of Xerrath:
    "Of course! This codex is written in the ancient Nathrezim tongue. Nathrezim, or the Dreadlords, as you call them, were once an enlightened and powerful race. Their skill in summoning and gateway magics was unsurpassed by any in the Great Dark Beyond."

    Pre-fel corrupted Dreadlords could lead to a potential playable race, as Blizzard intended to add a playable demon race in Vanilla WoW:
    "Before Warcraft III really solidified, Chris Metzen envisioned demons as shapeshifters who used magical illusions and deceit, and this version of demons was initially planned to be a playable race in classic World of Warcraft alongside naga and goblins. playable demons were cut from classic WoW."

    As it is said that their skill in summoning and gateway magics was unsurpassed by any in the Great Dark Beyond, and their racial mount is the Dreadsteed (the Warlock's class mount) - they would be perfect Demonology Warlocks.

    Moreover, being an "enlightened" race, as described by the Codex, means that they are not inherently evil but, more scholarly.

    Blizzard could build up on the HotS models of Mal'ganis and Dreadlord Jaina.
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-02-25 at 12:27 PM.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    What i'm most looking forward to in this patch is the Dreadlords involvement, revealed by the Starting Zone interview:
    "The dreadlords will be returning in this patch and we will learn more about them."

    This could, potentially, introduce us to pre-fel corrupted Dreadlords, as has been hinted by the "Enemy Infiltration - Preface" book:
    "And as previously discussed, our position within the plane of Disorder is proceeding flawlessly. Consuming fel energy is not a pleasant process, but a necessary one."

    And by the Mists of Pandaria's Codex Of Xerrath:
    "Of course! This codex is written in the ancient Nathrezim tongue. Nathrezim, or the Dreadlords, as you call them, were once an enlightened and powerful race. Their skill in summoning and gateway magics was unsurpassed by any in the Great Dark Beyond."

    Pre-fel corrupted Dreadlords could lead to a potential playable race, as Blizzard intended to add a playable demon race in Vanilla WoW:
    "Before Warcraft III really solidified, Chris Metzen envisioned demons as shapeshifters who used magical illusions and deceit, and this version of demons was initially planned to be a playable race in classic World of Warcraft alongside naga and goblins. playable demons were cut from classic WoW."

    As it is said that their skill in summoning and gateway magics was unsurpassed by any in the Great Dark Beyond, and their racial mount is the Dreadsteed (the Warlock's class mount) - they would be perfect Demonology Warlocks.

    Moreover, being an "enlightened" race, as described by the Codex, means that they are not inherently evil but, more scholarly.

    Blizzard could build up on the HotS models of Mal'ganis and Dreadlord Jaina.
    You know that the Dreadlords pre-fel are just venthirs?

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