Lost Codex and Bellular Lore Interview. [Spoilers]

[TheFirstOnes]

Actually, you did. Omnipresent is just latin for "everywhere". And while it's not impossible for such a being to exist, the non-sequitur comes in in that this does nothing to affect how likely its existence is. You're just randomly jumping from "light is everywhere" to "omnipresent being exists".



Same issue here. None of what you mention leads to the conclusion. You falling for the classic "correlation = causation" fallacy.

And don't quote like that, it just makes your posts harder to read.

Never said it did, but it is enough evidence to suggest such a conclusion for the causation. Especially since there's really no other being in the Cosmos atm that fits such a correlation. Hence, why I theorized that they're the Dreadlords. And I'm not arguing any type of fallacy here. I've mentioned multiple times that the Dreadlords COULD be the cause of the whole Cosmic plot, and I mentioned multiple reasons and provided multiple reasons of Evidence why I thought this. But I never really claimed that "BECAUSE THEY ARE CONNECTED, THEY ARE DEFINITELY THE CAUSE OF THE COSMIC SHIT GOING ON", I just said it was pretty hard to argue against such, since there's so much thrown in there.

Also, I quote like that to make things easier for me to read. If you don't like it, I don't know what to tell you, bud.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not denying that what I'm saying are assumptions. I state multiple times that these things are LIKELY to be the case. But I'm also going to defend my stance by telling you why I think this is the case. This is why we debate these topics.

[username993720]

Light isn't really all that effective against every Demon. Not unless they're either able to overpower it, or become one with it (Which is what Lothraxion did, when he was defeated by and converted to the Army of the Light). Reminder that the Demons were basically dismantling the Light, and guys like Illidan could easily dismantle Prime Naaru with Fel Magics. Light is not really a good counter for Fel. You could argue this same logic for Arcane, Death, and Void energies as well.

Regarding the Venthyr, what I said was more so an assumption, since while the light that was used is the same as Azeroth's, it's possible that the rage of the Light can change its way of affection, so that it only affects the Venthyr, since other beings of the Shadowlands are able to walk around it just fine (As seen by Kleia and Palegos in Revendreth). Or maybe not. Maybe they were always vulnerable to the Light. That actually only helps the Venthyr case more imo, since that's why they went to the Fel and Void, and it's also why Lothraxion had to convert himself to the Light in order to gain a proper advantage.

Patch 3.1.0: [Exorcism]: Now can be used on any target and has a 100% chance to be a critical strike when used on (Undead and) Demons.

Seems like the Light was, extremely, useful against Demons.

I'm gonna guess that they were, always, vulnerable to the Light, since they are Vampires.
Unlike them, Angels and Fauns are not said to be susceptible to light exposure. As for the Undead creatures of Maldraxxus, they should be vulnerable to Light.

[TheFirstOnes]

Patch 3.1.0: [Exorcism]: Now can be used on any target and has a 100% chance to be a critical strike when used on (Undead and) Demons.

Seems like the Light was, extremely, useful against Demons.

I'm gonna guess that they were, always, vulnerable to the Light, since they are Vampires.
Unlike them, Angels and Fauns are not said to be susceptible to light exposure. As for the Undead creatures of Maldraxxus, they should be vulnerable to Light.

Pretty sure the Necrolords aren't really affected by the Light in Revendreth.

Also, using in game abilities is not really a good reason to argue stuff regarding lore. Especially since the Legion was absolutely obliterating the Army of the Light prior to our arrival on Argus.

[Nerovar]

1. What do you mean "no build up"? We've been hinted towards a higher power regarding Death for awhile now. And from what we've seen, the Legion's not really prone to necromancy so much, which is why the Lich King plot feels so unrealistic, imo. The most we got regarding them and Souls are the Soul Engines, and that's about it. Something never really added up, so of course we'd learn more to it.

This is not true. There were no hints towards a higher power in regards to Death in the older lore. You know why? Because necromancy by and large was a creation of the Burning Legion. It wasn't necessary to have some gigabrain death "god" because "Death magic" was just a brand of Shadow magic. The first Death Knights were just Orc warlocks fucking around and the Plague of Undeath was strongly hinted to be of Demonic (meaning Fel) origins (which makes sense becaue Dreadlords (one of the oldest demon races born of the twisting nether) were the ones spreading it). It's also what made the Lich King interesting to begin with. He was a creation of the Legion that became an independent entity which ultimate became something like a god of (un)death where before there was none. The Lich King was impressive precisely because he willed his own domain of death into existence despite being of mortal origins.

2. How is what I said irrelevant? I'm discussing why the Titan's were never the gods you claimed them to be.

It's irrelevant because for the longest time the Titans were still the most powerful/influencial intelligent beings that actively shaped the Warcraft universe. They were Gods for all intents and purposes. Whether they were allmighty or not has precisely nothing to do with what we're arguing about.

3. We really weren't. At MOST we defeated Aggramar's Avatar and saved the Titan's spirits, but that's it (Outside of beating Argus, which required the Titan Spirits to aid us). And no, we never trapped Sargeras. The Titans and Argus did.

So... how exactly does that fit your claim that we weren't important in Legion?

4. We knew about some knowledge regarding the Shadowlands, but that's it. The Death Knights only explained limited knowledge of it, really. We never really got to experience the Shadowlands first hand, nor have we really seen the true nature of what the Shadowlands is. We've seen off brands, or aspects of it (Such as the Halls of Valor and Hellheim, which were inspired by the Shadowlands), but that's it. Don't see how any of this is a retcon.

They certainly had enough knowledge to locate souls and harvest their essence there. Weird they never told us about "Maldraxxus", "Revendreth", "The Jailer" and all that stuff.

[TheFirstOnes]

This is not true. There were no hints towards a higher power in regards to Death in the older lore. You know why? Because necromancy by and large was a creation of the Burning Legion. It wasn't necessary to have some gigabrain death "god" because "Death magic" was just a brand of Shadow magic. The first Death Knights were just Orc warlocks fucking around and the Plague of Undeath was strongly hinted to be of Demonic (meaning Fel) origins (which makes sense becaue Dreadlords (one of the oldest demon races born of the twisting nether) were the ones spreading it). It's also what made the Lich King interesting to begin with. He was a creation of the Legion that became an independent entity which ultimate became something like a god of (un)death where before there was none. The Lich King was impressive precisely because he willed his own domain of death into existence despite being of mortal origins.


It's irrelevant because for the longest time the Titans were still the most powerful/influencial intelligent beings that actively shaped the Warcraft universe. They were Gods for all intents and purposes. Whether they were allmighty or not has precisely nothing to do with what we're arguing about.


So... how exactly does that fit your claim that we weren't important in Legion?


They certainly had enough knowledge to locate souls and harvest their essence there. Weird they never told us about "Maldraxxus", "Revendreth", "The Jailer" and all that stuff.

Funny, considering Necromancy was never really stated to be something made by the Legion, or at the very least not in Chronicle, etc. You barely even see the Legion use Necromancy anyway in Legion. So, I doubt this is the case. Hell, only the Dreadlords really use Necromancy, even in WC3.

The Lich King only lead the armies of the Scourge on Azeroth, and not the entire Universe. He also never had a "domain of death". He only thrived within the Frozen Wastes of Northrend at Icecrown. Nothing implied there was no "true god of death" prior to the Lich King, either. Old lore implied that Sargeras was the true god of all evil, flame, death, etc. But Chronicle and shit like that made those claims mute.

Nothing really implied the Titans shaped everything though. They did shape and order the entire Great Dark, yes. Hell, Chronicle actually pushes that narrative forward. However, they never shaped or ruled the entire Warcraft Cosmos.

Also, my claim fits with the fact we weren't important because of the fact that we not only were aided by powerful Artifact, multiple beings, etc. But once we met the Titans, we were not only in a rush, but after defeating Argus, the Titans kinda just told us to bugger off and go home. Like, yeah we helped and did a lot of good things sure, but the most we could've done at the time was beat down a weakened World Soul that served as the proxy for Sargeras and his armies. Why would the Titans mention anything regarding the First Ones to us? Especially since they themselves were going through a lot at the time?

Also, all the Legion did was take souls from mortals and their bodies, and harvest them with the machines. Those souls almost never went to the Shadowlands.

[Beatman]

Oh really? Is that why the letter mentions Sire? Obviously, the Ventilators turn to Denatrius and tell him that everything is going according to plan.

The letter hints at some kind of connection between Sire and the Dreadlords. It doesn't say anything about dreadlords being former venthyr (or vice versa). It doesn't confirm anything, really.

If you take vague hints as evidence, go ahead. I don't.

[Nerovar]

Also, my claim fits with the fact we weren't important because of the fact that we not only were aided by powerful Artifact, multiple beings, etc. But once we met the Titans, we were not only in a rush, but after defeating Argus, the Titans kinda just told us to bugger off and go home. Like, yeah we helped and did a lot of good things sure, but the most we could've done at the time was beat down a weakened World Soul that served as the proxy for Sargeras and his armies. Why would the Titans mention anything regarding the First Ones to us? Especially since they themselves were going through a lot at the time?

You can't be serious.

Eonar would have been fucked without us in the Antorus raid.
Aggramar's soul was freed by us after thousands of years of being corrupted by Sargeras.
Similarly, the rest of the pantheon would have probably been fucked had we not defeated Argus (who, btw. was retconned to pretty much be the sole reason why the Legion was an actually infinite army capable of threatening pretty much all of existence).

The fact that you're not even willing to walk back on this stupid claim that the players' role wasn't important in Legion makes me question your ability to argue in good faith.

[TheFirstOnes]

You can't be serious.

Eonar would have been fucked without us in the Antorus raid.
Aggramar's soul was freed by us after thousands of years of being corrupted by Sargeras.
Similarly, the rest of the pantheon would have probably been fucked had we not defeated Argus (who, btw. was retconned to pretty much be the sole reason why the Legion was an actually infinite army capable of threatening pretty much all of existence).

The fact that you're not even willing to walk back on this stupid claim that the players' role wasn't important in Legion makes me question your ability to argue in good faith.

Us freeing the Titan Pantheon's souls doesn't give them an excuse to talk about the all powerful creators of the Cosmos to us. We were on fast time, and while we were important at the moment (Especially since we were fucking up the Legion and all), we're not really all that big in the actual cosmic side of things. Kinda doesn't help that Sargeras was busy trying to corrupt our World Soul, which made things even more scarce on time.

"Aggramar's soul was freed by us after thousands of years of being corrupted by Sargeras." We don't know when the Titan Souls were captured by Sargeras, so no?

Also, nothing was retconned regarding Argus. All that was stated was that Argus made the regen for the Demons much faster than normal. The nether rule still applies.

Don't talk to me about arguing in good faith, if you can't even do such a thing yourself.

[username993720]

Pretty sure the Necrolords aren't really affected by the Light in Revendreth.

Also, using in game abilities is not really a good reason to argue stuff regarding lore. Especially since the Legion was absolutely obliterating the Army of the Light prior to our arrival on Argus.

Well, they should be, as undead are, usually, susceptible to Light:
"The Light is agonizingly painful and destructive to the undead. When undead channel the Light, they do not disintegrate or explode from channeling the Light, though they may wish they would. Instead, it feels to them as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Forsaken and death knight tanks suffer nobly when they have priest or paladin healers in the group."

Maybe, because of their immense numbers? They are, after all, at the heart of the Legion stronghold and regeneration machine.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Where is this thousands of years Aggramar being corrupted? Cause so far I haven't found anything in lore to say that. That seems like its for Argus(Which is legit).

[Nerovar]

Us freeing the Titan Pantheon's souls doesn't give them an excuse to talk about the all powerful creators of the Cosmos to us. We were on fast time, and while we were important at the moment (Especially since we were fucking up the Legion and all), we're not really all that big in the actual cosmic side of things. Kinda doesn't help that Sargeras was busy trying to corrupt our World Soul, which made things even more scarce on time.

So now we were important? Which one is it?

"Aggramar's soul was freed by us after thousands of years of being corrupted by Sargeras." We don't know when the Titan Souls were captured by Sargeras, so no?

We know Aggramar was the first Titan to be slain by Sargeras before Norgannon used his spell that would save the Titan souls from destruction and send them off into the Great Dark. Do you think it's a coincidence that the only Titan who actually got corrupted by Sargeras was the one who died before Norgannon's spell? And even if Aggramar's soul still somehow made it to Azeroth the Keeper that would have been imbued by his soul woud have been Tyr (who also died thousands of years ago).

Also, nothing was retconned regarding Argus. All that was stated was that Argus made the regen for the Demons much faster than normal. The nether rule still applies.

The retcon is that we are told that the Legion was only a threat due to Argus massively speeding up the process. This is of course ridiculous because Demons were already a big threat prior to Sargeras' fall (which is why Sargeras and Aggramar imprisoned the demons they fought).

[Le Conceptuel]

I'm pretty sure the name is supposed to be self-explanitory..

I think what he's trying to say is just that they're increasing the scale for the sake of increasing the scale, not necessarily that they won't actually be the end of the chain. We've basically been seeing this new escalating sequence of new bigger, badder cosmic powers and that's what's really the point of that post, I'd presume.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I think what he's trying to say is just that they're increasing the scale for the sake of increasing the scale, not necessarily that they won't actually be the end of the chain. We've basically been seeing this new escalating sequence of new bigger, badder cosmic powers and that's what's really the point of that post, I'd presume.

True but that scale had to increase in some way. The First Ones have to be a slow burn, as in they have to spread out their lore(First Ones) over several expansions).

[Varodoc]

Anyone who paid attention to the story would know that there's more to the First Ones than what Blizzard said in that interview.

The First Ones created the Shadowlands...

Yet they also created the Light and Void that are trying to destroy the Shadowlands?

The First Ones created the Titans...

Yet they also created the Demons who are threatening the world of Titans and Order?

It's obvious that there's much more that needs to be revealed.

[TheFirstOnes]

Well, they should be, as undead are, usually, susceptible to Light:
"The Light is agonizingly painful and destructive to the undead. When undead channel the Light, they do not disintegrate or explode from channeling the Light, though they may wish they would. Instead, it feels to them as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Forsaken and death knight tanks suffer nobly when they have priest or paladin healers in the group."

Maybe, because of their immense numbers? They are, after all, at the heart of the Legion stronghold and regeneration machine.

It's not even numbers. It's literally fuckin' power. The Goliath shot down the Xenedar in 1 go, the Legion's Goliath Worldbreaker was legit a massive fuck over for the Army of the Light's troops (Hence why we were needed to kill it), and guys like Krosus can legit break Tirion Fordring's power like nothing. Even Gul'dan stated to Tirion that his "pitiful" light could not reach him in the Broken Shore. And must I mention Rakeesh beating tf out of O'ros with his Fel power?

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone who paid attention to the story would know that there's more to the First Ones than what Blizzard said in that interview.

The First Ones created the Shadowlands...

Yet they also created the Light and Void that are trying to destroy the Shadowlands?

The First Ones created the Titans...

Yet they also created the Demons who are threatening the world of Titans and Order?

It's obvious that there's much more that needs to be revealed.

I mean...

The First Ones constructed the framework of the Cosmos. They also created Pantheons and defense systems for each Cosmic power for in case any force wanted to tip the scales of power, etc...

The Cosmos is a machine. And, like all machines, they're either faulty, or something will pop in and try to either take hold of it, or just straight up destroy (And replace?) it. The First Ones are SUPPOSEDLY the ones that made this machine.

- - - Updated - - -

So now we were important? Which one is it?



We know Aggramar was the first Titan to be slain by Sargeras before Norgannon used his spell that would save the Titan souls from destruction and send them off into the Great Dark. Do you think it's a coincidence that the only Titan who actually got corrupted by Sargeras was the one who died before Norgannon's spell? And even if Aggramar's soul still somehow made it to Azeroth the Keeper that would have been imbued by his soul woud have been Tyr (who also died thousands of years ago).


The retcon is that we are told that the Legion was only a threat due to Argus massively speeding up the process. This is of course ridiculous because Demons were already a big threat prior to Sargeras' fall (which is why Sargeras and Aggramar imprisoned the demons they fought).

We're important in that we were crucial to the Legion's destruction. NOT that we were important overall in the Cosmos.

Also, regarding the Legion and the Titan spirits. Well, while Aggramar was killed by Sargeras before the Titan's battle and all, we don't know if Sargeras actually claimed his soul (It's possible, but we also don't know when the Titan battle happened. For all we know, it took place MILLIONS or even BILLIONS of years ago). But if he still was put into a Titan Keeper, and if he was place in Tyr, then what stops Aggramar's spirit from just straight up returning to Ulduar, where the other Keepers are, and becoming apart of another Keeper? Cause Aman'Thul's essence went into 2 guys: Ra'den, and Odyn. So, if Aman'Thul could do that, why not Aggramar?

It's highly possible the Titan spirits were taken during the Legion's invasion of Ulduar during the 7.0 pre-patch, and that Eonar escaped Ulduar VIA the dream and made her sanctuary world as a result of it. Could also mean that Sargeras believed Aggramar to be top priority, likely because he needed someone to guard Argus' World Soul before it would be born as a full on Titan of Death. This is me assuming, of course. But it's just as likely to be true as what you're claiming right now. As, at the end of the day, these are merely assumptions.

You're right in that the whole Demon thing makes little sense, but they weren't really a "threat". They were moreso an annoyance. Also, Sargeras made the prison dimension of Mardum, I don't think Aggramar followed. I do know he discovered Draenor and did his stuff there, however. But yes, I agree that the Legion's whole regen process shares a really weird place in regards to continuity and logic. But it in itself isn't really a retcon, since nothing there implies the Demons could not get resurrected VIA slaying them in the Nether. It was more or less just saying that Argus is legit Sargeras' cheat code proxy in more ways than one.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm pretty sure the name is supposed to be self-explanitory..

That can mean anything. As in "first beings", etc. I do believe that they are the First in the entire Warcraft VERSE, however.

- - - Updated - - -

True but that scale had to increase in some way. The First Ones have to be a slow burn, as in they have to spread out their lore(First Ones) over several expansions).

That's why Blizzard's expanding the plot over the course of the next couple of expansions. Blizzard even stated that the First Ones are a set up to a story that will be fully realized years and years ahead. For all we know, the Void Lords aren't even the final threat in WoW. Maybe the First Ones will just try and reset everything, and we'll have to pop in and show our Gods that we're more than capable of balancing ourselves.

- - - Updated - - -

Would also be a funny irony as well, regarding WoW.

Final World of Warcraft Expansion: Beat the creators of the entire Warcraft Verse, cause why not? GG you win no re.

[username993720]

It's not even numbers. It's literally fuckin' power. The Goliath shot down the Xenedar in 1 go, the Legion's Goliath Worldbreaker was legit a massive fuck over for the Army of the Light's troops (Hence why we were needed to kill it), and guys like Krosus can legit break Tirion Fordring's power like nothing. Even Gul'dan stated to Tirion that his "pitiful" light could not reach him in the Broken Shore. And must I mention Rakeesh beating tf out of O'ros with his Fel power?

Again, their home turf.
One must wonder how much power and advantage they would have in a light-infused planet.

[Le Conceptuel]

Again, their home turf.
One must wonder how much power and advantage they would have in a light-infused planet.

I'd say it's supposed to be seen as actually more indicative of the Light's power that a single Paladin could keep up being absolutely decimated by Krosus and still survive somehow anyway and that for 13,000 years a small guerilla force has managed to keep up against the Legion. The entire point of the Light is it works miracles, like Tirion killing the Lich King.

[username993720]

I'd say it's supposed to be seen as actually more indicative of the Light's power that a single Paladin could keep up being absolutely decimated by Krosus and still survive somehow anyway and that for 13,000 years a small guerilla force has managed to keep up against the Legion. The entire point of the Light is it works miracles, like Tirion killing the Lich King.

Well, so did the Krokul. and they didn't use the Light.

[Le Conceptuel]

Well, so did the Krokul. and they didn't use the Light.

Good point, but the home turf argument you posited earlier to indicate the Light would be stronger there also works for the Krokul by virtue of their shamanistic powers allowing them to keep themselves hidden beneath the earth. Add to that they weren't a serious threat to the Legion so they presumably simply ignored them by virtue of the fact they found them irrelevant.

[huth]

Good point, but the home turf argument you posited earlier to indicate the Light would be stronger there also works for the Krokul by virtue of their shamanistic powers allowing them to keep themselves hidden beneath the earth. Add to that they weren't a serious threat to the Legion so they presumably simply ignored them by virtue of the fact they found them irrelevant.

And a resource. Wiping them out would be counterproductive when they pose no real threat and provide a local source for fallback souls in case you come up short.