Lost Codex and Bellular Lore Interview. [Spoilers]

[TigTone]

No it's not. It actually makes a lot of sense if you actually look into it.

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Ok? That just means the Titans have an infallible viewpoint of the Cosmos, and that they're not omniscient, or 100% knowledgeable of the Cosmos and its true nature. Why would they? They're beings of Order, and their viewpoints are mostly aimed toward the Nether (AKA the realm of Chaos/Disorder), and the Great Dark.

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The Bible is also infallible, ya know. It in itself is made by the viewpoints of mortal men, and their interpretation of God and his will.

When chronicles was described as the view point from Titans it reopened the door of mystery and possibilities in the WoW universe.

[TheFirstOnes]

That doesn't make any goddamn sense lmao

You're basically arguing that an object of a paradigm can exist outside of its own paradigm. A logical paradox. The very concept of all things possible encompasses literally all things possible. Arguing otherwise is arbitrary nonsense.

The Void Lords came about by clashing with the Light? Being pure void? Huh?

No this isn't like every fantasy universe lmao. You have no idea what you're talking about. Creator gods don't exist in a space of opposing forces. They classically exist in realms of nothingness. Not even in real mythology do they. In Greek myth, Chaos is first.

The First Ones are not objects of a paradigm, though. In fact, it's implied they literally made the Warcraft paradigm to begin with. So, no, it's not hard to assume they exist outside of the Paradigm, especially since they don't fit anywhere in it to begin with. Nothing implies they are objects at all either, since nothing seems to assume they're physical, or anything akin to that. Besides, concepts can in fact be made, and beings that embody concepts aren't the top of the food chain. Read a Marvel or DC comic, or the Bible. There are legit powers that exist which surpass concepts and reach the realms of platonic nature, or have even made said platonism to begin with. You can actually argue this for the First Ones.

"The very concept of all things possible encompasses literally all things possible." And those concepts are the cosmic powers, which represent the concepts of all things that are and will be within the Warcraft verse. If anything, you're downplaying the First Ones as if they're apart of the Cosmic Chart, and not straight up above it, which while possible, is probably not the case.

"The Void Lords came about by clashing with the Light? Being pure void? Huh?" The Void Lords are NOT the Void itself. They are embodiments of the Void made by shards of its power.

"Creator gods don't exist in a space of opposing forces. They classically exist in realms of nothingness." The Void Lords live in realms of nothingness, and yes they can. It's why the Titans are able to shape entire planetary systems, and create worlds, etc despite being bound to the chart of opposing forces.

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There is more to this than what meets the eye.

The First Ones might have forged the universe but it is possible that one of them became corrupted or twisted and turned into the first of the Void Lords, from which all Shadow originated. The progenitor of all Void.

We already know that the First Ones scale above the other Cosmic Pantheons. The Void Lords are the Cosmic Pantheon of Shadow. Stop these baseless theories. They serve nothing but fuel your headcanon.

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Yes cause point of view has NEVER been a point of contension or conflict ever..right?


right?.................

Well, it has. What you say doesn't go against my point, that the Titans are a fallible, unreliable narrator.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Well, it has. What you say doesn't go against my point, that the Titans are a fallible, unreliable narrator.

Hence my very obvious sarcasm of the whole "TITANS POV IS BS" Like people never heard of the concept of sometimes people have false information despite being honest.

[TheFirstOnes]

When chronicles was described as the view point from Titans it reopened the door of mystery and possibilities in the WoW universe.

I mean, the door still would've been expanded either way, but sure.

Like I said multiple times now, the Chronicle did nothing but give us the base of the Warcraft Cosmos. That's it. SL's, the Grimoire, and future develops merely serve to expand upon what's already been established. We knew absolutely nothing of the Warcraft Cosmos outside of the Titans, Sargeras (The Dark TITAN), and the Old Gods (Which aren't even Cosmic beings all too much anymore, more like parasites of Cosmic beings such as the Void Lords, which are more comparable to Titans, and the other Cosmic Pantheons).

[Varodoc]

We already know that the First Ones scale above the other Cosmic Pantheons. The Void Lords are the Cosmic Pantheon of Shadow. Stop these baseless theories. They serve nothing but fuel your headcanon.

Who do you think you are? Who gives you the right to tell people what to do? I'll speculate as many times I want, thank you very much.

You don't know who the Void Lords are, nor what their full connection to the First Ones is.

[eurojust]

Danuser and Bellular need to learn how to differentiate from Arthas as a DK and Arthas as the Lich King. DK Arthas was under Ner'zhul's control, why would this even be brought up when discussing Zovaal??

Also Danuser saying it's not a shade or echo needs to go back and watch all the evil undead dude's die who expressed relief and gratitude.

Starting to not like this expansion, at least in the lore. They sweep under the rug how important Ner'zhul was to the existence of the Lich King and keep bringing up how Zovaal tried to control them, basically ignoring the whole story that was Ner'zhul rebelling against the Legion.

Exactly. It's Ner'zhul who chose Arthas as his champion so he could use him as a tool to rebel against the Legion. It's Ner'zhul who whispered to Arthas and the rest of the Scourge. Wc3 was clear on the fact that dk Arthas was under his mind control.

[TheFirstOnes]

Hence my very obvious sarcasm of the whole "TITANS POV IS BS" Like people never heard of the concept of sometimes people have false information despite being honest.

Yep. Not to mention that the Titans are about as biased as the Light in terms of their belief system, so even if what they said was true, it would still be unreliable.

[Adoxe]

For something as large as universe creating gods? Ya there absolutely should be build up before hand things like that should never just appear out of the blue.

If they introduced them back in like WOTLK, you'd be saying it's an ass pull that hasn't been established back then too. How do you establish and introduce something, without you know... introducing and establishing it first? They're doing it now and it's completely fine.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

The writing has certainly taken a... dive. How far it's fallen is up for personal interpretation but I agree that it has.


Bad writing is almost always a love letter addressed by the self to the self. The person who will admire it first and last the most is the writer themselves. Writing is more than a matter of shit syntax and faulty observation; bad writing usually arises from a stubborn refusal to tell stories about what people actually do and what is believable.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If they introduced them back in like WOTLK, you'd be saying it's an ass pull that hasn't been established back then too. How do you establish and introduce something, without you know... introducing and establishing it first? They're doing it now and it's completely fine.

look at the titan ruins all around classic, they don't just say oh ya Titans made the planet they show you things that connect to them but leave it a mystery that gets fleshed out when you go to uldaman and then again further with ulduar and so on.

wow already has examples of how to be build up right and it just show cases how horribly this is being done.

[Vasti]

Who created the First Ones?
Who created the creators of First Ones?
Who created the creators of the First Ones creators?

Can I be the one to name them?

Asspullarians
Thisloreisshitians
Whothefuckwritesthiscrapians

I vote for:

The Zeros (as a pun on the first ONE, zero coming before one)
Then the Zeros were created by the Mathematics (who also wrote all the laws of the universe)
And the Mathematics were created by either Einstonians or a big bang type event (but who caused the big bang type event? :O )

But yeh, the lore has been going downhill since TBC with Illidan's story there.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

look at the titan ruins all around classic, they don't just say oh ya Titans made the planet they show you things that connect to them but leave it a mystery that gets fleshed out when you go to uldaman and then again further with ulduar and so on.

wow already has examples of how to be build up right and it just show cases how horribly this is being done.

Yeah thats called build up, the First Ones are being added for world building the same way as you pointed out Titans got more attention then just manuals from old games and over time we learned more. Nothing different is being done here. The Scourge came out of nowhere in WCIII but thats why they were introduced and built up.

But yeh, the lore has been going downhill since TBC with Illidan's story there.

No matter how many times its said, no thats not true. People just have blinders on.

[TigTone]

Yeah thats called build up, the First Ones are being added for world building the same way as you pointed out Titans got more attention then just manuals from old games and over time we learned more. Nothing different is being done here. The Scourge came out of nowhere in WCIII but thats why they were introduced and built up.

People tend to ignore all the little spots of build up blizzard places all over. Even the big build ups.

I have notice first one/orbios style small ruins all over the shadow land zones and in the maw.

Now they are adding a new piece of land more directly related to the first ones.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yeah thats called build up, the First Ones are being added for world building the same way as you pointed out Titans got more attention then just manuals from old games and over time we learned more. Nothing different is being done here. The Scourge came out of nowhere in WCIII but thats why they were introduced and built up.

The titans were never mentioned in any manuals prior to classic and the build up I just laid out.

[huth]

Yep. Not to mention that the Titans are about as biased as the Light in terms of their belief system, so even if what they said was true, it would still be unreliable.

I think a lot of these mistakes stem from people (subconciously) assuming the Chronicle was meant to be all-encompassing, when it was clear from the start that it simply could not be.

[Soon-TM]

If they introduced them back in like WOTLK, you'd be saying it's an ass pull that hasn't been established back then too. How do you establish and introduce something, without you know... introducing and establishing it first? They're doing it now and it's completely fine.

Titans were introduced together with WoW, with dungeons like Uldaman and several quests around the world. The lore was expanded later, with all the Titan-themed stuff in WotLK. There was, y'know, a large, consistent buildup for them.

But now they've introduced something which predates even the previously called primordial forces of the Warcraft mythos without any buildup whatsoever, aka asspull. Did someone ever bother showing or mentioning something, anything, about these First Ones in previous xpacs? No? In the RTSs? Maybe in !@#$ing Hearthstone? Yeah, that's what I thought.

[huth]

Titans were introduced together with WoW, with dungeons like Uldaman and several quests around the world. The lore was expanded later, with all the Titan-themed stuff in WotLK. There was, y'know, a large, consistent buildup for them.

But now they've introduced something which predates even the previously called primordial forces of the Warcraft mythos without any buildup whatsoever, aka asspull. Did someone ever bother showing or mentioning something, anything, about these First Ones in previous xpacs? No?

By your logic, the Titans were also an asspull. After all, they didn't exist before WoW and where only introduced then.

What we're seeing here is the build-up.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I find that highly questionable.

[Soon-TM]

By your logic, the Titans were also an asspull. After all, they didn't exist before WoW and where only introduced then.

What we're seeing here is the build-up.



I find that highly questionable.

Titans had buildup, First Ones didn't. What's so hard to understand, my "questionable" dude?

[Houle]

*another insane theory how the void and therefore alleria (!) are the most important thing in the universe*

its all but confirmed not to be the case

[TigTone]

Titans had buildup, First Ones didn't. What's so hard to understand, my "questionable" dude?

Shadowlands is the build up of the First Ones.

They created shadowlands and made maldraxxus as its defense force.

Just cause Blizz did not build them up before shadowlands does not mean it is an ass pull.

You might as well call most of the stuff that came out of MoP an ass pull if you want to think that way