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  1. #321
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    There are adult comics just like there are adult cartoons. They're still largely for kids and teenagers.
    i don't think it is largely for kids, at least not comics, at least not those days

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    The symbyote drag bad emotions out of him, isn't the whole point of it? they didn't make venom sentient but the rest was pretty much on point.
    Was it? Are you an expert on the symbiote now? Tell me, how many Spider-Man comics have you read where Peter had the symbiote? Because I've read them all...and I don't recall the symbiote ever telling Peter he needed to learn how to dance to humilate his ex.

    "having a hand" in killing Harry does not eman he rly killed harry, it was venom. And yes the point of the thing with sandman was forgiveness, isn't something bad in a hero movie.
    Forgiving someone does not mean letting them go free. He doesn't have to kill Sandman...but he's still a dangerous criminal...as shown by him trying to kill him and Harry a few moments earlier.

  3. #323
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Was it? Are you an expert on the symbiote now? Tell me, how many Spider-Man comics have you read where Peter had the symbiote? Because I've read them all...and I don't recall the symbiote ever telling Peter he needed to learn how to dance to humilate his ex.
    you completely missed the point. the symbionte drag Peter Bad emotions out, and peter himself did that.
    Forgiving someone does not mean letting them go free. He doesn't have to kill Sandman...but he's still a dangerous criminal...as shown by him trying to kill him and Harry a few moments earlier.
    yeah, but he didn't kill other people so, not that dangerous, with Ben was an accident, he tried to steal money for his daughter and everyone in his condition and power would do the same, it could simple say he was forced by Eddie who knew his daughter,(with he used to lure him) and he, could not take venom

    Like his own wife said, eh just a common thief, now he will try to live a better life, now that he is forgiven eh can start anew, again, isn't something bad in a super-hero movie, especially for spider-man

  4. #324
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Forgiving him is one thing. Letting him go is a different thing entirely. He's still a super-powered criminal. Letting him go is not responisble.

    Advocating for him after he turns himself in to the police...that's forgiveness.
    And Ben would have let him go ... at least how it was written.

    I am not arguing it is good or even makes sense from a real world perspective.
    But, if it had ended "Nah, Bro, you need to go to jail" would have made real world sense, but not narrative sense.

    It is just bad writing of the movie.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-09-20 at 01:39 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    And Ben would have let him go ... at least how it was written.

    I am not arguing it is good or even makes sense from a real world perspective.
    But, if it had ended "Nah, Bro, you need to go to jail" would have made real world sense, but not narrative sense.

    It is just bad writing of the movie.
    Ben would not have just let him go. Ben would want Peter to forgive him but he would also want Peter to try and convince Marko to turn himself in. He would not want him to just let him go.

    "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" doesn't just apply to Peter.

    Sandman has great power. He chose not to use that power responsibly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    yeah, but he didn't kill other people so, not that dangerous, with Ben was an accident, he tried to steal money for his daughter and everyone in his condition and power would do the same, it could simple say he was forced by Eddie who knew his daughter,(with he used to lure him) and he, could not take venom
    I guess "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" only applies to Peter then?

    Sandman isn't dangerous? He was willing to kill Spider-Man. If he hadn't been helping Venom...Harry would still be alive. Peter only went to Harry for help because he couldn't fight them both alone.

    Venom didn't threaten Marko's kid. He just said "Together we can kill Spider-Man" and Sandman was in.

  6. #326
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Ben would not have just let him go. Ben would want Peter to forgive him but he would also want Peter to try and convince Marko to turn himself in. He would not want him to just let him go.

    "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" doesn't just apply to Peter.

    Sandman has great power. He chose not to use that power responsibly.
    Again, you are bringing in real world logic into the narrative.
    Narratively, Ben would have let Marko go. It is still terrible writing, but it is what would have happened with how the story sets things up.

    Per Flint: [Ben] said to me, "Why don't you just put down the gun and go home?"

    Narratively, Ben would have let Sandman go after all, Flint just attempted grand theft auto, was involved in armed robbery, etc. The narrative set up letting Sandman go. Does it make sense using real world logic? No, but it is 100% internally consistent.

    Again, not saying you have to like the scene, like the writing, etc. But when you say "Ben wouldn't have let Sandman go." you are factually wrong about the narrative.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  7. #327
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    I guess "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" only applies to Peter then?

    Sandman isn't dangerous? He was willing to kill Spider-Man. If he hadn't been helping Venom...Harry would still be alive. Peter only went to Harry for help because he couldn't fight them both alone.

    Venom didn't threaten Marko's kid. He just said "Together we can kill Spider-Man" and Sandman was in.
    Yes he isn't that dangerous, even when he was stealing one he didn't kill cops or other people, the only killing that happened with him was an accident, he is a troubled person trying to do whatever it takes to save his child, that is not someone you condemn to life imprisonment.

    Eddie did mentioned his daughter to Marko, obviously he implied that if he didn't help Venom would take care of that, he said many times he didn't want to hurt spider, and others, but he was indeed lured, but like @Dartheo said, is more of a bad writing thing than a logical thing

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    The symbyote drag bad emotions out of him, isn't the whole point of it? they didn't make venom sentient but the rest was pretty much on point.

    "having a hand" in killing Harry does not eman he rly killed harry, it was venom. And yes the point of the thing with sandman was forgiveness, isn't something bad in a hero movie.
    Bad emotions like turning Spider-Man into a romcom? Harry and MJ’s stupid kitchen scene doesn’t get a ton of attention thanks to the massive cringe of Peter’s disco lessons, but it should. Add in the dumb hoverboard for Goblin and it’s just a bad movie. If they’d left all that bullshit out and just done Sandman it would have been much better. That’s pretty much the only redeeming aspect of the film.

  9. #329
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Bad emotions like turning Spider-Man into a romcom? Harry and MJ’s stupid kitchen scene doesn’t get a ton of attention thanks to the massive cringe of Peter’s disco lessons, but it should. Add in the dumb hoverboard for Goblin and it’s just a bad movie. If they’d left all that bullshit out and just done Sandman it would have been much better. That’s pretty much the only redeeming aspect of the film.
    i never said it was a good movie though, i just said it is better than ASM2

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Again, you are bringing in real world logic into the narrative.
    Narratively, Ben would have let Marko go. It is still terrible writing, but it is what would have happened with how the story sets things up.

    Per Flint: [Ben] said to me, "Why don't you just put down the gun and go home?"

    Narratively, Ben would have let Sandman go after all, Flint just attempted grand theft auto, was involved in armed robbery, etc. The narrative set up letting Sandman go. Does it make sense using real world logic? No, but it is 100% internally consistent.

    Again, not saying you have to like the scene, like the writing, etc. But when you say "Ben wouldn't have let Sandman go." you are factually wrong about the narrative.
    Ben did everything in his power to stop Marko. In the situation, the only power Ben had was to try and convince him to stop. If he had more power, he would have done more. Because Power = Responsibility.

    You want Narrative Consistency? How about this:

    In Spider-Man 1 Peter lets a criminal go and, because he does that, Ben Parker is killed. Peter blames himself and swears he will never let that happen again.

    In Spider-Man 3 Peter once again lets a criminal go. Only now he fully understands that there could be consequences to that decision.

    So, let's say Marko gets put into another situation where he "accidentally" kills someone. Who is Peter going to blame then?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i never said it was a good movie though, i just said it is better than ASM2
    And that's your opinion. You are free to have it. My opinion is that ASM2 is the better of the bad movies. Not a good movie. Just slightly less bad.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i never said it was a good movie though, i just said it is better than ASM2
    Agree to disagree then. ASM2 was far better.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i don't think it is largely for kids, at least not comics, at least not those days
    Yea...I believe it started at the "bronze age" of comics. Which depending on perspective began either with Gwen Stacy's death, or Green Arrow's sidekick, Speedy's, drug addiction.
    Despite that, comics were still fun to read for the better part of two decades to follow. They would eventually become something that was definitely not fun to read at all, and certainly not for children.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    At this point Sony should just allow Andrew to say he is on it, after the leaks there is not much he can do
    ooooor...now hear me out, this is a crazy idea I know, but...maybe just wait till the movie is out and be surprised by what/who is in it?

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  14. #334
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Ben did everything in his power to stop Marko. In the situation, the only power Ben had was to try and convince him to stop. If he had more power, he would have done more. Because Power = Responsibility.

    You want Narrative Consistency? How about this:

    In Spider-Man 1 Peter lets a criminal go and, because he does that, Ben Parker is killed. Peter blames himself and swears he will never let that happen again.

    In Spider-Man 3 Peter once again lets a criminal go. Only now he fully understands that there could be consequences to that decision.

    So, let's say Marko gets put into another situation where he "accidentally" kills someone. Who is Peter going to blame then?
    Yes, because character growth from the Start of a first movie to the End of the third is "narrative inconsistency."

    Can't possibly be that Peter learned that there is more ways to handle situations than just put the bad guy in jail.

    You are ignoring growth and things Peter learns to make a blanket statement.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    ooooor...now hear me out, this is a crazy idea I know, but...maybe just wait till the movie is out and be surprised by what/who is in it?
    They let him talk about the leak on Jimmy Fallon. Those shows get clearance to discuss that kinda shit before hand. If they wanted people to “be surprised” they shouldn’t be letting him talk about leaks on talk shows.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    They let him talk about the leak on Jimmy Fallon. Those shows get clearance to discuss that kinda shit before hand. If they wanted people to “be surprised” they shouldn’t be letting him talk about leaks on talk shows.
    Not sure what that has to do with what I said...but, OK.

    ...are you trying to say, if the studio doesn't want you to be surprised, then there's no way you could possibly have any self control to not try to find out all the things?

    I guess I'm not really sure what your point is.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  17. #337
    The problem with dealing with Sandman is that he's powerful. At least a couple of levels above Spidey. There's no jail...no SHIELD containment here since they were never mentioned.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Yes, because character growth from the Start of a first movie to the End of the third is "narrative inconsistency."

    Can't possibly be that Peter learned that there is more ways to handle situations than just put the bad guy in jail.

    You are ignoring growth and things Peter learns to make a blanket statement.
    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm saying that Peter, at the very least, would have tried to talk Marko into turning himself in. To try and pass on the lesson that he learned from Uncle Ben about Power and Responsibility.

    And you didn't answer the question. Peter lets Marko go. Marko kills again. Who does Peter hold responsible? Marko? Sure...he's the one that did the killing...but he wouldn't have been in a position to if Peter had not have just let him go free. The guilt for that would be even worse than what he feels regarding Ben....because this time he knew what could happen by letting a dangerous criminal go free and he did it anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    The problem with dealing with Sandman is that he's powerful. At least a couple of levels above Spidey. There's no jail...no SHIELD containment here since they were never mentioned.
    Meh, that's something that can be addressed in universe. They don't have SHIELD in the X-Men movies and they still had a prison that could hold Magneto. I mean, since Marko doesn't appear to need to eat or breathe....they could just toss him in an airtight container and leave him there.

  19. #339
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm saying that Peter, at the very least, would have tried to talk Marko into turning himself in. To try and pass on the lesson that he learned from Uncle Ben about Power and Responsibility.

    And you didn't answer the question. Peter lets Marko go. Marko kills again. Who does Peter hold responsible? Marko? Sure...he's the one that did the killing...but he wouldn't have been in a position to if Peter had not have just let him go free. The guilt for that would be even worse than what he feels regarding Ben....because this time he knew what could happen by letting a dangerous criminal go free and he did it anyway.
    Again, you are placing real world logic into the movie rather than judge the movie on what you are shown. You are arguing for the movie to do tell rather than show. I would argue that the movie shows use that Flint is learning that lesson by realizing what Ben was trying to do via Peter. There is no need to have Peter say it there as that is more tell than show.

    Flint being allowed to go free fits the other Raimi movies where the villains don't get the ending they deserve. Norman dies, and outside of a few people, no one knows he was a murderer and gets to be placed to rest peacefully. Octavius gets to sacrifice himself for the damage he did and everyone acts like he didn't cause mass property destruction and risk the entire city. Harry and Peter end up fighting alongside each other and Harry doesn't go to jail for all the shit he did and gets to die being seen as a "hero."

    It is even arguable that Eddie Brock/Venom got an ending they didn't deserve either (but in the opposite direction to all the others.)

    As for hypothetical questions, they are just evidence of you placing real world logic into the movie. It doesn't matter because what you are saying doesn't happen to our knowledge any more than Flint letting go and choosing to live away from people.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Meh, that's something that can be addressed in universe. They don't have SHIELD in the X-Men movies and they still had a prison that could hold Magneto. I mean, since Marko doesn't appear to need to eat or breathe....they could just toss him in an airtight container and leave him there.
    Sandman is roughly ten times stronger than Spidey. There really isn't a way to hold him. And being immortal only adds to the problem. The fact is, there are times when you can't power your way through. Talking was the best option.

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